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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
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Try to be to be less rude, but it seems to be your nature and you even can threaten with violence.
Do you remember when you threatened me? That post was quickly removed. Maybe you will understand my feelings for you now?
Next time try to be constructive about instruments instead of this ridiculous crap that you are so good at because I answer you the same way.
Quote: Originally posted by spyros mesogeia  | FIRST OF ALL....
the incident with the bridge was in France,and that is true.
as for the floating bridge you should search much more on the ancient mediterranean instruments,mostly the tanbouroids.....
ofcourse it's not made by the Italians,but they started to use it alot for practical reasons :Humidity
Also Rohny,many years ago you were telling us that the Only Floating bridge oud was Yaroubs,all the others were not at the same class....
Well.....what do you have to say now,as you are the Bashir type ''Master""
I still have my Dimitris Rapakousios floating bridge ou and sounds amazing....Also Mattas ouds sound amazing,also and others.....
the last 10 years I have changed more than 50 ouds...and I am also occupied with luthiery....so,what I wanna say is that....do you still think the
same think?I forgot to mention that most of them are valued more than 3000 euros.....sounding and quality instruments...let us here your opinion my
friend.... |
Best wishes
Ronny
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
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Mood: play my ouds
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OK ROHNNY
WHATEVER....
JUST CONTINUE AS YOU DO...YOU, POLITE AND CIVILISED PERSON THAT YOU ARE....
HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY....
You are the '''Master''''
Regards to All my OUD-BROTHERS 
[file]12750[/file]
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Apologies Aymara - 'cranked' sound board was the best description that came to mind at the time! However, Ronny's posting and image of the mandolin
explains it very well.
Looking again at the image of the original Bashir oud posted by Richard, the 'crank' in the sound board appears to be much smaller (in depth)
proportionally than in a Neapolitan mandolin. This seems to be a compromise - to maximise the 'flat' vibrating area of the sound board yet providing
sufficient string clearance (below the bridge) in order to maximise downward tension on the bridge?
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
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Mood: play my ouds
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 10-14-2009
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Interesting and worth a separate thread, I think ... I would like to hear it.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
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Mood: play my ouds
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do you use msn or skype?
it will be my pleasure to play it for you if you wish my friend.
Regards
Spyros
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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No, sorry.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
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Mood: play my ouds
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maybe I will make a recording or a small video....
Regards
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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For shure a good idea, because I bet, I'm not the only one being interested to hear it.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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-just to clarify a few things....
Your bridge is glued to the face, but it does have a saddle, like all guitars have. The saddle allows you to adjust the height of the strings at the
bridge, but it is fixed in position. The pressure on the soundboard is torsional, or twisting because the bridge is glued to the face. Nothing is
"floating" about it.
A floating bridge is NOT glued to the face so the string pressure is perpendicular to the plane of the soundboard, not twisting.
The face of the Bashir design is convex (arched up or out) in both directions: the braces are arched across the face for added strength and
resistance to the downward string pressure; and the face is arched downward from the bridge toward the tail to provide more clearance for a sharper
string angle at the bridge, this allows higher pressure and more volume. The arched tail replaced the bent or cranked face, perhaps it sounds better,
I dunno.
As for the sound or volume, in either design, it is a balance of strength and response. You can make an oud very strong, but then it loses sustain and
volume, unless you use heavier gauge strings. If you make it very light, it will be loud, but will fail sooner due to the constant pressure of the
strings, whether they are acting on a floating or fixed bridge.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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I think I found a further hint for a medieval floating bridge oud:
Look at this book's (Jack Goody - Islam in Europe) cover ... HERE:
HERE is a larger version of this image.
The Cantigas de Santa Maria medieval-era manuscripts were written during the reign of Alfonso X "El Sabio" (1221-1284) and HERE we find this image again under the list of the black and white illuminations.
What do you think about this?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
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Thanks Richard for your post. I was expecting a post from you when I remember the correspondence we had a few years ago on the subject.
What you says about building a oud but very strong with the loss of sustain and volume must be something I think we can see/hear in many ouds with
floating bridges.
Fazwy and Fadel bashir model, are both relatively light and sounds very strong even with low string tension.
Two diametrically different design and interpretation of their builders, but despite that, they have more in common than you might think at first
glance.
Despite all the personal, national and conservative views for or against so has the Bashir model become incredibly popular, but I am convinced that it
can evolve and improve.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
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Chris, These images are interesting and I test played a reconstruction in the early 80s it had a soundboard of wood, but personally I think they were
made of skin. The same decorative patterns on the soundboard are found among North African folk lutes with soundboard made of skin.
This manuscript is very famous for a depicted short-necked lute of the Maghreb tradition but not with floating bridge. It has much in common with the
modern kuitra.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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When I look at THIS small image of a kuitra player, I don't think so ... the kuitra seems to be less wide, but the neck also is longer as in the above medieval
image.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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These well known images from the 'Cantigas', Aymara, are not of an oud - except in the broad categorisation of a plucked stringed instrument (guitar,
mandolin, banjo etc.) as defined by a modern organologist.
What is an oud? Well according to those who wrote about the oud from the 10th to 14th C (and who presumably knew their stuff), state that an oud was
made from wood and had a specific, defining, geometry.
The author of the 10th C Arabic 'Risalat al-Misiqi' gives the 'excellent', defining, proportions of an oud. "Its length being half as much again as
its width .... and the neck should be a quarter of the length."
Author of the Persian 14th C 'Kantz al-Tuhaf' is consistent in stating that .."the length of the oud should be one and a half times as much as its
width ..... and ... the length of the neck should be a quarter of the length of the lute".
The posted images from the Cantigas do not come close to matching these specifications so, presumably, are not images of an oud but of some other
instrument.
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
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Mood: play my ouds
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finally
I agree my friend.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning |
The posted images from the Cantigas do not come close to matching these specifications so, presumably, are not images of an oud but of some other
instrument. |
I interpreted that as a painting error, but ok critics accepted ... the search goes on
PS: Regarding THIS info page the image shows Cantigas guitarras.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Just for clarification, it is the attached image of instruments from the Cantigas that I was referring to that (to my eye) do not come near to being
ouds - judging from the early oud specifications of the same period of history.
The image posted by Ronny is likely meant by the original artist to be an oud but is lacking in geometrical precision and may also be subject to
artistic convention - as much of the early iconography is. There are other similar images in the Cantigas that might also be taken to be ouds - all
with fixed bridges.
It would surely be odd if the court of Alphonso did not have oud players represented among all of the other non-oud instruments.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | | Just for clarification, it is the attached image of instruments from the Cantigas that I was referring to ... |
Yes, shure ... and as it seems it are "early guitars", which can be seen by the circular peg boxes. But these guitars had floating bridges, so it
might be worth further investigation, if this influenced oud luthiers of that time or not.
| Quote: | | It would surely be odd if the court of Alphonso did not have oud players represented among all of the other non-oud instruments.
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Yes, we can count on it ... there have been oud players at the court.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
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Mood: play my ouds
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aymara my friend,we have done with katakofka some videos...take a look to see the fretless laouto of mine.
Best Regards
Spyros
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