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ameer
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My Thoughts on the Divide Between Eastern and Western Music
I've seen a lot of discussion on this board at one time or another about the divide between eastern and western music so I figured I'd share my
thoughts on the matter and see what everyone thinks.
I'd like to sum up my background to give a better idea of where I'm coming from. I have been blind since birth, and have literally grown up around
music of one form or another. I started playing the oud when I was a year old, though i'm not really sure I'd call it playing until I was maybe 6. I
played the piano for 8 years, and have been playing the guitar for 5. I have had lessons in piano, some lessons in guitar and a few lessons in the
oud where I learned the basics of maqamat but in most respects I am self taught. I will readily admit I am more ignorant of modern Arabic music than I
would like, particularly of the guitar-like oud playing that I've heard of on this board. My formal training is also somewhat lacking, so I would love
corrections or a statement as to why I'm outright wrong.
First off, the collection of things a maqam can represent is staggering. Scale, emphasis, development, up/down scales, transpositions or modes of some
other maqam, all of these and more fall under the massive heading of maqam. In contrast, western music theory is different: you have intervals which
combine to form scales which then form modes, and mixed in there somewhere is the gradual development of chords and harmony. While it's by no means
perfect and is highly dependent on the teacher in terms of success rate, I've found it to be a lot more logical in its development. For example, the
difference between Nahawand and Sultani Yakah is transposition where as the difference between Sultani Yakah and farahfaza is development/emphasis. In
contrast, G Minor is G Minor, but it can sound different depending on how you develop the melody. The factors are almost stacked on top of each other:
the intervals are applied to each other to form the scale, and the development is then applied to the scale. The former system lumps the factors all
together so that you're not guaranteed what the differences between maqamat will be, in the same way two people might be different in terms of height,
skin tone, hair length/color, etc. In contrast the latter guarantees the exact nature of difference in each category; when comparing two people's
height, the thing that is different is always the same: the vertical length.
Secondly, chords. You can do chords on the oud, but in my opinion you're limitted. I have yet to find a chord that uses microtones and manages to
sound good and convey the point of the maqam. Moreover in my experience chords really only sound good on the oud when there's at least one open
course. It seems to me the oud is primarily a melodic instrument and should be used as such, in the same way that distorted electric guitar is
generally not used for chords containing more than the root/octive and the fifth . One of these days I'd like to experiment with distorted chords but
with microtonal intervals; maybe there's something to it.
As to chords and harmony in traditional Arabic music, I recently came across a very nice application of chords to a traditional song. It's quite subtle which I think makes it fit verry well. I'd be interested in knowing
what other work has been done to successfully harmonize traditionally melodic Arabic music, particularly on difficult maqams; to me it adds a totally
new dimension to a song if done right.
Finally, and I appologize if this gets a bit ranty, but I really don't like the modern arabic keyboard sound. I'm not necessarily saying it's useless,
but it's nice to see some change from the same bass-dominated sound in all the different rhythms. I remember some years ago there was an old tape I
found, likely from the 80's, where some guys were playing traditional Arabic songs, but using the older synths from that era; it sounded great because
there was a lot more variety of sounds and the beat wasn't so scooped, meaning all bass/trebble and no mids.
By this time you're likely asking what my point is. I really don't have one, other than both sides are overreacting; the "modernists" who basically
make western pop with an accent tacked on after the fact to the traditionalists who want to hide away in a commune somewhere. It is important to
preserve the cultural flavor of eastern music, but at the same time there are elements from the west that we can assimilate in such a way as to expand
our musical toolbox and give us more options. In today's global age the difference between music of various cultures is likely to thin to the point
where it comes down to a very fine set of shades. These are the thoughts that occur to me at the moment and I would be interested in hearing others'
responses.
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fernandraynaud
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Yes. All of the above.
One (composite) question: you are in the US, yet you played the oud starting so early. How did that happen, what is your family background? Did you
grow up around Skarky music mostly? What about languages?
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ameer
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My parents are Christian Israeli Arabs that met in the US; my father is from Shifa-3amr (sp?) and my mother is from Nazerith. For the first few years
of my life I listened strictly to Arabic music, and was even confused when I first went to school because everyone else spoke a different language
than me: English.
I got my first oud from my uncle who dabbled in it; I played around for a year or two, then sat on it by accident. But since then, I've been hooked on
music in some form or another.
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fernandraynaud
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Your background is fantastic, like the strike zone of a cultural ordnance testing range. My own background is no less complicated, but not as directly
in relation to the oud.
One thing you mention, the notion that "In today's global age the difference between music of various cultures is likely to thin to the point where it
comes down to a very fine set of shades", I see as a problem. What is stronger in the marketplace is not necessarily the better music. Let's face it,
the young, who seem to set trends, are not necessarily the most sophisticated. The dominance of a lowest common denominator music is the result.
Everything sounds vaguely like Beyonce, with a bit of Arabian or Russian or French flavor, and it sux. BUT everything is changing. The sale of singles
was once the engine, then the sale of albums, CDs, now it's downloads, and nothing is for sure. It's a huge opportunity for more genuine local music,
because it takes little money to at least summarily create and put material out there. But there are also terribly complex and difficult issues
involved with so-called "marketing". What determines what will please? How does new music come to the ears of a public that might be interested? Can a
genuinely new music please, or are we too stuck in our ways? What is the ROLE of music in peoples' lives? It's certainly not the same as it was in
Bach's time! And "classical music" is hardly the "eternal" thing most lovers of serious music think it is. In fact it was a flash in the pan as they
say, and there will never be another Baroque, history has moved on.
Of course the people who want to hide and play only traditionally are free to do that, in small corners, and of course the tasteless people who fill
the world with rapcrapbambambambam do so in hope of selling it, but things are changing so fast I see a lot of hope. OF COURSE there will be new music
that harmonizes on maqamat, because everything is being tried, at least on a small scale, and that's a good thing.
So the people who are creative have an obligation to keep exploring and not merely get stuck in repeating the past, like playing only
Chopin, or only imitating Riyad Al Sunbati. Don't surrender the field to lowest common denominator pop! There are listeners hungry for all sorts of
music! Come on out and PLAY!
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ameer
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | Your background is fantastic, like the strike zone of a cultural ordnance testing range. My own background is no less complicated, but not as directly
in relation to the oud.
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Do tell, if you don't mind. I love hearing the perspective of fellow cultural hybrids.
You're definitely right about the uncertainty of the music market these days. I mean you have stuff on the radio that dominates but you also have the
independent artists on myspace and the like, who actually have fanbases that 20 or even 10 years ago would have been unthinkable. There is evidence to
say that the market is blurring but also evidence to say that it's differentiating as every person goes and does their own little thing with their own
little following.
I guess reception of a given piece of music mostly comes down to finding connection with it. Whether it's the lyrics, specific instruments, or even
memories it brings back you have to have some reason to listen to a song more than once. On a mass scale this means speaking to the culture of the
times in your own particular way. Take for example the rock of the 1960's: it spoke to the loud, rebellious stick-it-to-the-man attitude of the masses
at the time (slightly generalizing, but I still think it applies) and consequently took off.
The question then becomes how do you fit something new into that preexisting mold. Your best bet I think is to find some event that fundamentally
affects the culture and harness it to make your music a cultural force.
Ultimately there will always be some baseline of dominant music which captures the culture at the moment, but at the same time there is a lot of
potential for people to forge new ideas and techniques, and maybe even become the next dominant force in music.
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Aymara
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A friend of mine had an interesting theory: He said, that downloads introduce a trend back to the roots ... sounds like a antagonism, but it isn't.
When we see falling sales of CDs and rising piracy levels, concerts become one of the main sources of income for music industry and artists. Many
"forgotten" heroes come back on tour.
I think, this is a new trend besides Youtube and Myspace, which gives hope, that commerce will loose influence and gives new room for "real" music.
Though I'm just a German, I grew up and still live in the Ruhr area in West Germany, which is a cultural melting pot, because many foreign people live
here. This region was a coal-mining area 'til the 70's and many Polish, Italian, Greek, Turkish and other people once came here to work in the mines.
When I was a child, a good friend of mine was the son of a Spanish immigrant worker.
Though the heavy industry is gone now and the region became green again, some people like me still like the multi cultural background.
A further first influence that made me interested in world music was John Mc Laughlin & Shakti.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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David.B
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I needed a long time to read all of the thread, and I haven't got everything but I see the essential...
Aymara, what you wrote was rising in my head just before I read you : Nowadays mass consumer music is killing itself, the basic consumer wants a new
song quickly and doesn't care about the way he gets it. Someone who loves music needs a good support to listen to his favorite music, I use CDs (even
if it's not the best...) and a good audio system, impossible to listen to a MP3, so insipid. Those who buy are the real music lovers, I hope all this
"soup" we are listening to, through radio, TV, etc, is going to purge itself. And of course the best is live music, that's why I came behind my oud,
it's so difficult to get time and money for a concert every night, so I do it myself, at least I try 
Also I'd like to react on something you talked about ameer. What is classical in Arab music ? To me the 24 1/4 of tone traced on the west ET is a big
misunderstood and nowadays Arab music is a try from theorists to simplify old, less scientific, Arab music to an ideal which was European. The 1932
congress could give a clear border... Even texture changed at that time with the introduction of the European instruments. When I hear Oum Kalthoum,
Mohamed Abdel Wahab, etc, it's already a mix of west and east !
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David.B
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I correct myself ameer, you use "traditional" not "classical".
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ameer
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When I say traditional I refer more to the general sound than the underlying theory. But while we're on the subject, trying to compress Arabic scales
in to a 12 tone or even 24 tone system is just not going to work. When you have maqamat like rast and bayati where the second notes are both somewhere
in between the tonic and tonic+0.5, then any attempt to cast down to a less precise system will cause things to sound different. You mention the 1932
congress; I'm unaware of exactly what it did to alter the landscape of Arabic music. If you could point me to a source I would appreciate it. As to
stuff that came before 1932, I've never really heard any of it, though I've heard it was at least somewhat similar to the current landscape in that it
involved fewer instruments.
Anyway, traditional for me is primarily Abdel Wahab etc mostly because that's what I grew up listening to as the "older" music. For me traditional
music has a much more complicated sound that is more suited to longer and in some cases slower songs; I feel that Abdel Halim's faster songs for
example, while they may be excelent, drag because of the complexity of the instrumentation (this is the best way I know to explain it at the moment
though it's a bit unclear) and in some cases due to the complexity of the song. Where as if you take the same song and cover it in a more modern style
with fewer instruments and perhaps prune some of the sections out, you have a modern pop song that I think sounds a lot more put together. They did
all have western influences, but it was the west of the past; with what is happening now with instruments and synthesizers, there is at least some
room for the same kind of innovation without sacrificing traditional attributes.
So in short the discussion of traditional versus modern for me is more like the classic rock versus modern rock discussion rather than the rock
versus classical music discussion. You can still apply the same techniques from traditional songs to the modern songs. I hope that clarifies.
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fernandraynaud
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To answer Ameer's question about my background, the problems we see in the Middle East are obviously not unique. Many parts of the world have
complicated ethnic and religious divisions that can get ugly or beautiful, depending.
The small country called Lithuania was peopled by nature-loving farmers whose religion centered on the Sun and forest deities. They spoke an old
language related to Sanskrit. Their most unique national characteristic was their ability to stand and sing ancient songs on the banks of rivers stone
sober for hours on end in the freezing cold. They were invaded by heavily armed Christians who "urged" them to become Christians. They sort of
accepted it, finally, at the end of the 14th century, when to defend themselves from further such "improvements" by the Teutonic Knights, they joined
with their Polish neighbours and formed the huge Grand Duchy of Lithuania that stretched from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Its outline in 1619
(overlaid on modern countries) looked like:
[file]12685[/file]
The king was not too powerful. The democratic principles were such that discussions and voting in the senate dragged on forever, and not much got done
too quickly, and it was just fine that way. The city of Vilnius was a melting pot where about 1/3 each Polish, Yiddish and Russian were spoken, with
other languages thrown in. Vilnius had Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches, Synagogues and Mosques. The Muslims were mostly Russian-speaking
descendants of Tartars who had decided to settle down, but there were also Muslims among the Jews from the 1492 dispersal of Andalusia. In the
country, Lithuanian was still spoken by farmers, and Christianity had not even entirely replaced the old ways, to this day the Lithuanian cross bears
a sun at the center. People managed to get along. The only problem was that the neighboring countries were far less democratic, and they got things
done efficiently, like attacking the Grand Duchy and dismantling it between Russia, Austria and Prussia in the 18th century. But still life went on
peacefully in the countryside. Their ability to stand and sing served them well. They could outlast the Christians during services, and outdo the
Russians during toasts and speeches. My father was born there before World War I on a little country estate. Between the two world wars, a lot of
small-time hostilities created bad blood between all nationalities everywhere, though in Lithuania a recognition of long-term realities favored
cooperation over conflict.
Then came World War II, Russian occupation, then German occupation when Synagogues and Mosques quite disappeared from Vilnius along with their
faithful, then Russian annexation. Many of the people who had (suspiciously!) survived the German purification were, after the Liberation, shot or
deported to Siberia to make room for some serious collective farming. My uncle, who as a traditional Lithuanian Pole had saved Germans from Russians
and Russians from Germans and Jews from everybody, managed to destroy the family file before they were rounded up by the KGB. My father managed to
survive in Poland, and after a lot of adventures landed in Washington DC, where I was born, and then in France, where I went to school, then to
California where I went to college.
Strangely enough, my wife of 9 years is Lithuanian, she too grew up on a little farm near Vilnius, where her neighbors on one side spoke Lithuanian,
on the other side they spoke Russian, and at home they spoke Polish. Things hadn't changed all that much since my father's childhood 50 years before,
as communist officials in uniform came for tea and stole eggs just as the officers of the Tsar had done before. A few old families even spoke German.
Some people attended Catholic church, others Orthodox, still others a little Mosque, and a small group only attended Party meetings, instead of
Synagogue, but they all got along, and no serious attempt was made to change anything essential. My wife chose to attend the Russian school, because
she liked the teacher and their red scarves, though her brother attended the Polish one. When the Soviet Empire collapsed around 1990, many of the
Russian officers and soldiers asked to please stay, and those who agreed to be good and learn Lithuanian were allowed to do so. It turned out that
both of those requirements were not easily met, especially in light of the fact that hardly anybody spoke Lithuanian, a very difficult language that
was only remembered by some stubborn old farmers. But they polished it up and wrote grammar books, and claimed it had a national literature and had
not long ago been spoken by everyone, and it became the official language. Most of the young Russians found Lithuanian unlearnable, and the ones who
continued to make trouble with mafia friends were told to go home, though in my wife's village the old Russian families were still accepted. In all of
the invasions and misfortunes, nobody would dream of blaming one's neighbors, even if they spoke the language of the invader, and this prevented a lot
of trouble.
Then, strangely the government decreed that only Lithuanian was to be spoken, and a lot of needless tension developed, like "inspection day" when
local schools had to take down their Polish or Russian signs, hide the books, and for one day pretend they taught everything in Lithuanian. The
students' names were spelled the Lithuanian way until the inspectors left. Though everybody understood all three languages, in the city all questions
you might ask in anything but Lithuanian, as I found out, were met with blank stares. The older people were having a hard time even buying groceries.
Everybody developed a gripe about being mistreated by this or that group. The young people all learned only Lithuanian.
But then all of a sudden it turned out that in order to get anything done with the neighboring countries you had to know Russian, and German, and
Polish. So reason returned. The young people are now taking classes in Russian, and Polish and German and English. And there's a synagogue and a
mosque in Vilnius again, things are getting back to normal. The old timers just laugh. My wife still gets along with everybody, even me.
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fernandraynaud
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David,
But all the "organic" musicians who find live music the only way, and dislike MP3s and synthesizers overlook the fact that practically speaking it is
only with electronics that we can explore alternate sounds and tunings, and that it's the download revolution that is making traditional music
available to millions.
I think that it's more important to explore alternatives to the mass market than it is to cling to acoustic instruments and live recordings.
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Aymara
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Hi Tony!
The world is a village 
My mother's ancestors were farmers in the region of Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad). My grandfather came to the town I still live in to become a coal miner
between the World Wars. My other grandfather was a tram driver in the neighbour city, but his ancestors were also farmers.
Nowadays two worlds of music exist: the mass market, where music and "artist" are nothing more than a product with a very short life circle and on the
other hand "fair-minded" music, be it traditional or modern.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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David.B
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ameer,
You can find an interesting article about the 1932 congress here :
http://thornpricks.blogspot.com/2006/11/conflating-instruments-and-...
It's interesting because it focuses on the piano. If you want more theoretic infos you can read “Arab Music Theory in the Modern Period” by Marcus
Scott Lloyd, page 820, and some other books presented here :
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=23860781115&topic=8876
Finally, you can hear Pre-1932 Cairo conference music here :
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7795#pid491...
I reacted on what you wrote because I've been confronted to the same problem of vocabulary about 2006 when I gave lessons at the "conservatoire de
musique orientale" (Paris). Our repertoire, the classical one, was Oum Kaltoum, Farid el Atrach, Abdel Wahab (Abdel Halim in a certain way)... In this
school there were 2 kind of people : The occidentals here because of the takasim and the orientals because of the "classicals". I didn't grow up with
the "classicals" and to me it sounds, in a certain way, like symphonic orchestras. So I don't recognize pure Arab music in "classicals". But it's just
a problem of words, not so important, what is important is the History and what happened between Napoleon's period and 1932 Cairo congress. I'm
certainly saying stupid things, but I would compare this period to Baroque period and post 1932 like Symphonic one. Then like pop/rock.
Tony, tu as écrit une tartine ! I hope I read it as soon as possible 
To react on your last post :
I totally agree, I admit that I'm a conservator and my purpose is to play alone somewhere in the middle of the desert... I stopped to travel
physically for an inside trip through maqamat. What you do is the future and I admire your work especially as a composer. To me technology is "just" a
great tool and you handle it better than I do with an artistic point of view.
PS
I'd like to mention "Al Kindi" as a purist ensemble which try to bring back the traditional repertoire with traditional instruments. Give it a try on
the Bashraf :
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=photos&ref=ts&gid=91588...
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David.B
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You're background is really interesting Tony, I understand it deserves such a prose... Mine is more classical in spite I share a little tiny thing
with your past : the "Lycée de Montgeron"
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jenni
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Very interesting discussion!
There is something theoretically beautiful about the mixing of cultures, but, at least nowadays, i find this mixing to be aesthetically disastrous.
As someone already mentioned in this thread, abdel halim and oum kalthoum and the like- that was already a mix of western and arab music... it was
beautifully done, but a line was crossed, and what has basically stemmed from that, i don't have much of a taste for. i feel that nowadays, people
think mashing stuff together is creating something new, when in fact it is just.... mashing stuff together. then people think THAT's a new genre, so
they mash it up even more. until it becomes so mashed up that it's ironically the most simple, dumb music in the world.
For this i actually feel it is EXTREMELY important to bring traditions back into the light. so, ameer, i am not a " traditionalist who want to hide
away in a commune somewhere"... i am a traditionalist who wants to to bring back the old music and the music which was once made because it sounded
beautiful, before it is ultimately lost in the pot of mingling cultures.
just my thoughts....
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David.B
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Hum... I would temperate this point of view, especially with Arab music! The first school we know about Arab music is the school of Qaïna-s, the
pre-Islamic period up to 632. This could be called the pure Arab music. But we have nothing back from this period to know what it sounded like. After
we have a mix between Indian, Persian, and especially Greek music, mostly during the Abbasids (750–1258). The modern period starts with the
introduction of western culture (about 1750, 1800). Our period is a complete mix of cultures. This is with the impulsion of the western culture that
Arab music grew and stand up! I would point out the commercial stuffs not the cultural mix. The cultural mix is really healthy for music, without
Joseph Tawadros, Anouar Brahem, Dhafer Youssef, Avishaï Cohen... Who would care about the roots of Arab music? More we have precursors, more we have
artists like Muhammad Qadri Dalal, Mustafa Saïd and a revival of the early modern period through the Université Antonine (Lebanon) for example.
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jenni
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Yes, i understand that pretty much everything came from somewhere, "arab music", even what sounds extremely traditional, is a mix of cultures, and a
beautiful one.
"the cultural mix is really healthy for music....the commercial stuffs not the cultural mix"
but doesn't the commercial stuff sort of stem from the "good" stuff? was there "commercial stuff" invading the masses during the Abbasids? before, the
popular stuff and the classical stuff was the same thing... the fact that this has changed is big problem for the evolution of music/art in general.
i guess i haven't heard enough noncommercial modern mixing of arab and western culture - music to have an eloquent discussion on this topic. even
with oum kalthoum, (esp) abdel halim, abdel wahab there's some stuff i reeally don't think is beautiful because of certain western influences i hear
in the music. i just saw trio joubran play recently , i was highly impressed and inspired even, but i didn't go straight home and listen to them - it
was for their skills and the interesting display. fairuz, although she has a beautiful voice - some songs are just aweful, to the point i can't even
stand it, because of the westernization in it. - is that stuff all "commercial" ?
i know this is just one beginner's opinion, but i think new music is going absolutely nowhere, in all genres. with the exception of very few artists
i've heard.
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David.B
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I think this period was the golden age of music and so much things. A unique moment in history! At this time music was a science... So it's difficult
to think about the Abbasids with our modern conception of society where the capital rules the world, during the Abbasids the richness allowed the
caliphs to protect the intellectuals and develop abstract theories. As I can see you're from Montréal, do you speak French? L'AGE D'OR DE L'ISLAM ( http://www.cinemapassion.com/covers_temp/covers3/L_age_d_or_de_l_Is... )
Yes this is a point of view (and this is mine), but since the middle of the 19th century western music was considered as a more evolute music and
integrate the western system was considerate as a great evolution for many Arabs.
The point is: "What is commercial for you?"
To me the time is the judge. And History will say what is not only fashion but a constructive part of it.
I hope you'll be a part of them in order to keep the old school alive
Here I'd like to rebound: "What is the way to learn Arab music without western influences?"
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ameer
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Wow. Almost a year later and this thread pops up again. I'm again sttruck by the impressive amount of reason and civility shown by the participants.
Thank you for a so far wonderful discussion of a topic filled with complex and sometimes touchy subjects. Now to address some of the points made thus
far:
@jenni: I commend your initiative to try and expose others to the flavor of music that you like. Only by spreading the word- or in this case the
music- can we hope to have a chance of finding people who agree with us.
@David.B Can you elaborate on what exactly you mean by "What is the way to learn Arab music without western influences?" I mean, post-1932 there will
likely be some kind of western influence in whatever it is you study; I suppose you could study pre-1932 material exclusively, but again it depends on
exactly what you're trying to achieve.
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David.B
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| Quote: Originally posted by ameer | I suppose you could study pre-1932 material exclusively, but again it depends on exactly what you're trying to achieve.
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Hi ameer,
Yes to me this is the biggest point! The way we learn Arab music is completely intricate with western staff notation, theory and instruments. My
teacher, a Lebanese, commended me to play on tempered scale with staff notation. It became completely absurd when I tried to understand the empiric
Arab system with the scientific western theory (cycle of fifths and fourths, tonalities, chords...). Now I use only my ears and my memory with the
help of books. So this is where I can't go further. I need books, websites, forums... and off course records to understand what I cover. And there are
not so much references about the early period. Without teachers (and big structures) it seems impossible... So I try to play Arab music with the tools
around, maybe this why I'm open to everything which helps, whatever it is, west or east. Here comes the compromise. I don't know about you, but I
think what we can do and learn nowadays is huge, and I won't complain!
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ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 458
Registered: 9-14-2009
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Mood: No Mood
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I agree. What tends to help is that the maqam tradition is very much an oral tradition so that you have a different- and I would even go so far as to
say better- road when it comes to learning. I would love to hear first-hand perspectives: is maqam any easier or harder than western theory in terms
of learning with minimal support?
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David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
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Mood: Renaissance
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Definitely harder if we talk about the early period, this is why ancients wanted to bring the western theory to help students. Arab music had to
evolute in order to keep going.
The masterpiece of this period could give to you an idea of the complexity I'm talking about :
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10782
First of the all the name of the notes: 48 different names to learn in order to not mix up Nim zergelâh and Nim shahnâz for example, oral tradition
needs it. Easier to read C=/= and c=/=. This is a reason why the one octave maqam became the norm (and temperate scale)...
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jenni
Oud Addict
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Registered: 2-12-2010
Location: Montreal
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" maybe this why I'm open to everything which helps, whatever it is, west or east. Here comes the compromise."
Yes, i agree with this. but now you are talking about methods of learning music, not making new music....
forgive me, but i don't think i'm understanding the argument anymore.
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jenni
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 2-12-2010
Location: Montreal
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This is tricky... i personally have been studying classical western music for years. i study it in uni right now, and we take plenty of theory
classes and musicianship classes, etc. etc., (which to me feels useless most of the time in terms of my musical and artistic development.)
BUT if i were to take these same classes for arabic music, it would act almost as a short cut for me, only since i haven't fully absorbed the music
yet. however, i've familiarized myself the most and learned the most simply by using my ears. this feels like the best and most natural way for me
to learn. i want to learn all about the theory only because i want to accelerate my learning process (and maybe to sound impressive )
i'm not sure if one is harder than the other, though. the only way to tell would be to go back in time and learn both at the same time and see which
came easier. the problem is, they are SOOOOOO different... it's comparing apples and oranges. so i'm not sure this question can ever really be
answered.
and the fact that they are so different, so distant, theoretically and musically and emotionally, leads back to my original opinion that the two
genres have little to no business mixing.
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David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
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Mood: Renaissance
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| Quote: Originally posted by jenni | Yes, i agree with this. but now you are talking about methods of learning music, not making new music....
forgive me, but i don't think i'm understanding the argument anymore.
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I think this is really intricate and without new methods no new music. But OK, this is really specific to Arab music. The Arab world had to settle
down and think about a new theory to keep its music, but as it is a compromise with western (scientific) methods, new Arab methods began to flourish
without one leader. You can see the same for the oud, what is the standard overall sizes? No norm like the violin for example. This is the strong
point of Arab music and its weak point (as we said about "the pot of mingling cultures"), the method you learn Arab music could give to you a
definitely different point of view in your artistic way! This is so so real for Arab music, not for western one which is standardized.
I think you should read "ARAB MUSIC THEORY IN THE MODERN PERIOD" by Marcus Scott Lloyd. You would see how mixed up are west and east in Arab music,
what we labeled "Arab music" would not exist without the impulsion of the west and the structure of its music. This mix is already its identity!
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