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Mehran
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A certain ornament...
Greetings,
Ive heard this ornament played on the oud many many many times and finally found a video that illustrates it clearly, its hard to describe but its
almost like a doubling of the note, but also giving it an almost moaning quality.
Ornament video - youtube
Ive tried to imitate it but i cant seem to figure the movements out in order to get that same sound (that moaning sound), my attempts always seem a
bit mechanical.
Does anyone know what this is called? what the guy in the video is doing with his fingers? how to do it? how to practice it?
I know im asking alot but i dont have a teacher or any friends that play oud, so i hope someone here understands what im saying.
Cheers 
Mehran
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mrkmni
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I do not see really ornaments in the video: this is vibrato: it is very common in violin playing...
the ornament is when youy add few notes in between..
to practice the vibrato :
you put your finger in the right note place then you make movement with you wrist . Do not move the finger from the right note.
Now to practice ornment you should know maqams very well because you could touch a note that is not right...
it comes with more playing and listening and imitating.
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Sazi
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There is also "hammer-ons" in this video, which could be what you mean by "doubling of the note", this is done just as you see it, by playing a note
with your 1st finger and hammering rapidly a couple of times on the same string a semitone (or more) above, like vibrato but more obvious.
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Ararat66
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Hi there
These 'ornaments' or phrasings to me seem very vocal and you hear this strongly in Persian (Iranian), Armenian and Anatolian/Turkish singing. There
is a very beautiful phrasing in Turkish oud style which is like a hammer-on but more of a whisper and I think it is called 'carpma' in Turkish but
someone may want to correct me.
Check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5kLBxYona0
I love this Udi's playing she is called Gülçin Yahya Kaçar Gulcin nd plays on the luthier Emir Udlari's website. The phrasing/ornamentation I have
mentioned happens throughout this piece starting at the short decending phrase at 51 to 52 seconds in ... I just think it is breathtaking !!!
The oud is such an expressive instrument and doesn't suit being played harshly.
Cheers
Leon
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Jonathan
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Leon--
Are you talking about the downward slide? Is this called carpma? If not, what is this technique called?
Thanks!
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Ararat66
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Hi Jonothan
Yes it occurs in that downward slide 3 or 4 times on this piece although I hear it played upwards also (I try myself both ways). The string is just
touched rather than a full on hammer and there is this whispering quality to it.
Leon
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Mehran
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Hi,
Thanks for all the responses.
Leon - nice video, ive not listened to much turkish playing before and this was beautiful, especially around 2:30. She really produces quality in each
note. Ill listen out for more turkish musicians.
As for the "carpma", Ive tried playing with a lighter touch on the string instead of a full press, and it seems to be more convincing than before.
Cheers guys
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Ararat66
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Hi Mehran
Check this out also - this shows the technique
http://www.nme.com/awards/video/id/1HV6PiZnamo
I think 'carpma' covers a variety of techniques based around this very particular way of hammering on and off.
Leon
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Microber
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Quote: Originally posted by Ararat66  |
I love this Udi's playing she is called Gülçin Yahya Kaçar Gulcin
... I just think it is breathtaking !!!
Leon |
Yes, I love her too.
Check this recording of the Hijaz Peshrev of Refik Fersan.
Her interpretation is simply magical.
(some very nice çarpma here and glissandooooo...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff_hF3O4Vnk
Robert
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jazzchiss
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Yes, she has skills, but why is she so boring? She plays like a lesson.
Really, I love oud players from Algeria to Iran, but I didn't find a single Turkish player that moves me, not even Necati Celik.
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Sazi
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Oooohhh, them's fightin' words... 
Seriously though, maybe it's something to do with the music they play? It being Classical music, and classical musicians can be a bit boring...
I'm sure someone will want to shoot me down in flames for this
I'm just a folky @ heart, which is where I like my music to come from, - the heart, as opposed to the head, and classical music is a bit cerebral as
they say.
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Masel
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I disagree that turkish ud playing is not moving, but I do connect better to the arabic style, but that just may be because I'm more used to hearing
it.
I totally disagree though about the comment regarding classical music. What the turks supposedly lack in emotion they compensate in depth of the
music, whereas arabic music in general (I say again general) seems to have lost lots of knowledge of what is maqam.
I am now studying persian music and to me it succeeds in each of the areas where arabic and turkish music are less successful. It is a very rich and
deep classical and ancient tradition rooted in art-music and folk music. I find it very full of tarab (which can sometimes be lacking in turkish music
for my and apparently other people's taste) but also very deep and sophisticated, which is something arabic music has less of.
Of course I am not judging, and I enjoy all three styles alot. Some turkish music moves me alot more than arabic music, it depends.. I think the
turkish style of ud is influenced by tanbur playing and not the older way in which the persians and arabs play (though persian music has many trills
similar to turkish music so it is in a way a middle path of the two other approaches).
Anyway, here is a very nice song sung by the oud (or barbat as it is called in persia after the man who invented it) player AbdolVahab Shahidi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5pcwnwuDUw&feature=related
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paulO
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Well Jazzchiss, not a single Turkish player that moves you ?? Not even Necati ?? Cool. At least you know what not to waste your time on. Happy New
Year.
Regards..PaulO
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jazzchiss
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Hi, Sazi, I'm a radical improviser,  but I
appreciate classical music too, specially Bach.
Nice traditional song, Masel! I have it already. Persian classical music is very rich, touching and complex in rhythms (I love zarb).
That's what I don't find in Turkish music, which is either dancing o boring. I don't want to offend anybody, but the type of ecstasy you can feel in
most of Persian, Iraqi, Egyptian… even in young players, I don't feel it in Turkish oudists.
PaolO: There is much music left!  I listen a lot of Arab and
Indian music every day. Just I wonder what has the Turkish taqsim that makes it so plain.
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Sazi
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See if this one will change your mind...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QMq6Q36FAU
I think it's one of the best examples of Turkish playing I've ever heard, and it's definitely not plain!
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John Erlich
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You know, there's no accounting for taste.
My musical preferences are:
1) Arabic classical music
2) Turkish classical music (CLOSE second)
3) Arabic folk music (close third)
4) Turkish, Armenian, Greek, and Kurdish folk musics (close fourth)
5) Persian classical music (distant fifth)
Guess what? The easiest to find in my area is #5. Furthermore, I live just 3 short blocks away from an endless supply of dirt-cheap Indian classical
CDs and cassettes…but the stuff BORES ME TO TEARS! I’ve really tried to appreciate sarod players like Ustad Amjad Ali Khan, but Hindustani
classical music just doesn’t work for me. The cassettes, for which I paid the princely sum of $1.88 each (= 1.31 Euro @ current rates) are
gathering dust in my basement.
Interesting discussion!
Thaks,
John
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Ararat66
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I think your words are very true John
Opinions seem to become inflammatory when what is a very subjective view is presented as objective fact ... which can easily overshadow what maybe a
very interesting subjective view.
As for one type of music over another and wether one is of the heart or the head ... that's a tricky one. I remember a painter I went to college
with, and she insisted that expressive painting had to be quick, impulsive and wild ... but it depends on who is doing this and placing a flourish
against a sensitively articulated form can make your heart melt. Her most moving paintings did eventually develop this beauty but I saw a lot of self
indulgent thrasing around aswell.
In have to say I am not in the slightest bit classical myself, but I love classical music aswell as folk and free improvisation etc, for all sorts of
reasons I have developed my own quirky 'tradition' but I really appreciate poetic moments of music and that doesn't seem to be limited by genre.
Leon
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Sazi
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Yes the heart/head thing is a tricky one, I think perhaps a good balance between the two probably comes across the best, (less of the "self-indulgent
thrashing around").
Looking through my various play-lists I find a wide variety of music from many genres/cultures, from punk to classical, (though I don't seem to have
too much Turkish classical), I don't think any one of them is better or worse, though I have my preferences, and I'm not too fond of the Indian
classical, there are great moments in all of them, but I definitely favor feel/expressiveness over technique, and I love a good melody.
When it comes down to it I'm just glad there are so many different styles and sounds to revel in. Viva la difference!
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jazzchiss
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Interesting opinions!
I believe that musical preferences have especially a psychological foundation, because nowadays, thanks to the Internet, it doesn't really matters our
cultural environment. Besides, there is music to listen for pleasure (but that would be impossible for us) and music to learn, to imitate and to play
with. For some years I stopped playing music and also I stopped listening to oriental music, I only listened jazz or flamenco.
At the present, the classic music of the India is my favourite and the sarod the instrument of which more I learn. The ragas system (with very rare
modulations) is more to my scope that the maqam's one.
This is my program for any day:
Awakening with J. S. Bach (suites for violin or violoncello solo, clavichord solo...)
( Here there is a parenthesis to go to work)
Siesta with Um Kulthum (what a pleasure!)
After the tea, I play the oud during 30 or 40 minutes (this one is the hour of the truth).
I play with a disc of sarod (Amjad Ali Khan, Ali Akbar Khan, Tejendra Narayan ...) or violin (L. Subramaniam ...)
I listen to a disc of Arabic music, probably oud (no way to play whit it).
Sorry about my English, I think is improving as my oud playing!
Regards.
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Ararat66
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I know what you mean about Bach. I went through a Bach period for a couple of years around the time my first daughter was born, around 2000. I
listened particularly to the well tempered clavier cycle of 48 pieces, but also many others.
Its interesting as Bach was credited with establishing an equal tempered system (although it was probably around in various forms since ?????), but
what he did with this equal temperament is astonishing, sounds effortless and often has a looseness and ease whilst at the same time sounding as if
there is an inner pattern connecting everything.
Leon
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SamirCanada
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuIQ4gm4oH4&feature=related
this is a taqasim... Its a turkish player, on a turkish oud.
one of the most amazing music I have ever heard.
if this doesnt move you... well I dont know what will.
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Ararat66
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Fantastic - actually I think that Turkish, Armenian, Arabic, Greek, Iranian, Arabic, Sudanese, Martian Smartian or whatever ... all amazing cultures
but music comes through the players regardless of this.
I agree with Samir and some of the others, if you want to be redical and true surely you must listen to the music not your idea of what music ought to
be! you see as soon as you say this over that then it becomes an idea and you think you listen from the heart but the head is dominant.
IMHO
cheers
Leon
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jazzchiss
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| Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuIQ4gm4oH4&feature=related
this is a taqasim... Its a turkish player, on a turkish oud.
one of the most amazing music I have ever heard.
if this doesnt move you... well I dont know what will. |
That's hoter!
Who's this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riDeyKaKCLQ
Full ornaments with great skills.
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ultragroove
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i thinks it's ahmed mukhtar from iraq. he was the first oudist i ever heard. spanish influenced like munir bashir.
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John Erlich
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Interestingly, Ahmed Mukhtar and other Iraqi oudists play in a style strongly influenced by Turkish ud, because the Baghdad Conservatory was founded
by a Turkish virtuouso: http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/targan.html You buy a collection of Şerif Muhiddin Targan's recordings (along with a large and informative
booklet) here: http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=MU970051KU030
Peace,
John
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