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Falcony
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
Registered: 2-7-2010
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Egyptian Beginner Oud
Hi! I'm a beginner and have no musical experience at all. A friend of mine has recently bought an Oud from Cairo, Egypt. I haven't seen it yet, but
hopefully next week ( I will post pictures). It is a beginner oud and very cheap (around 200 EGP). It came with soft case.
My question is.. how do I know if its "correctly" built. By that I mean a cheap oud like this one can be "out of tune" no matter how much you tune
etc.. it stills get off pitch or tone. Is it still recommended for a beginner to play with this? Will I learn anything?
My friend played for me over the phone. He has not experience at all, so he just hit some strings.. But it sounded more like a guitarr.. not a rich
sound. But then again its not correctly tuned.
I want to learn to play the oud "the correct way" using a Oud that is considered "playable".. Not cheap wood with some strings on it that sounds like
a guitarr.. I want to learn the Oud not the guitar... How would I know that this oud fills the criteria for above ? (I can post audio clips,
pictures etc when I get the Oud)
Thanks
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Hi,
welcome to the forums.
I would recommend buying a GOOD oud to avoid frustrations and such an instrument would usually cost about 500$ or even more.
Regarding the sound of your friends oud ... you would NEVER hear the real sound of any instrument over the phone ... and I wouldn't expect much from a
cheap instrument.
A further thing to consider is, that learning a fretless instrument is very difficult, if it's your first instrument. I know you don't want to hear
that, but starting with guitar would be easier. If you want to learn oud at once, you will definitly need a teacher!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Falcony
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
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Pictures and Soundfile.
Thank our for your reply Aymara!
I just received my Oud. It is bought from Egypt as mentioned on my first post. It has double strings. I have no musical or instrument experience at
all. So I have no idea what strings it has...
I have included pictures in this post. Also an audio recording with open strings.
My question is.. is this a "real oud" or is it meant for decoration? For me the sound is OK but more towards a guitar sound.. It is probably tuned
wrong (need help with that too). And is this oud suitable as an beginnner oud? Did I get it for good price? (with soft case).
Attachment: 5openstrings.mp3 (519kB)
This file has been downloaded 271 times
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
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difficult to say how 'good' it is, but it looks reasonable as a beginners oud. you can definitely use it to practice your intonation and risha
techinque. once you get into playing and start getting to know the sound of the oud you will probably something a little bit better. but for now -
just have fun and mess about with it!
re tuning:
i find the following good for beginners (from bass to treble):
sol - la - re - sol - do
give it a go and have fun!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Hi again!
Like every oud 
To be precise, the double strings are called courses and arabic ouds usually have 5 courses and a single deep bass string. Egyptian ouds often have
only the 5 courses without the single bass string.
For further information about different tunings, check THIS page. Also check the rest of that website for further basic oud information.
| Quote: | I have no musical or instrument experience at all.
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Then you will definitely need an oud teacher. Where are you located? Depending on the country, it might be nearly impossible to find one.
| Quote: | So I have no idea what strings it has...
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Such cheap ouds usually ship with horrible strings. I would recommend ordering good strings like e.g. Pyramid for example, but take care ...
you need strings for arabic not Turkish ouds!
| Quote: | | My question is.. is this a "real oud" or is it meant for decoration? |
That's hard to tell from a few photos and an MP3 file of a totally detuned oud
But I'm very sceptic.
I would recommend trying good strings first. And you should take care of the tuning pegs ... cheap ouds usually have problems staying in tune.
This problem can often be solved with peg compound (violin soap) for violins. When you change the strings, you put this compound on the pegs where
they contact the peg box. If this doesn't solve the detuning problem, you could put a bit of chalk above the compound on the peg. The soap makes the
pegs turn smoothly and the chalk prevents them from slipping. Peg compound usally is hard dry soap without any parfume, which also inherits a bit of
chalk.
But you should also keep in mind, that fresh strings need several days to settle, that means, it's normal that they detune fast. But after one week
(minimum 2 days) this problem should be gone. If detuning is still a problem then, it's caused by the pegs.
And your oud has a further problem, I often saw on cheap ouds ... the fingerboard is varnished, which will wear out soon, will look ugly and might
result in "flat" sounding strings, when gripped (not played open).
But your main problem now is, that you are a totally beginner, who might even need help in changing the strings and tuning the oud correctly ... btw
... I would recommend the most common arabic tuning for the beginning: C-FF-AA-dd-gg-cc (the big C is the mentioned single bass string). And you will
need a TUNER and a microphone ... or buy a handheld tuner with integrated mic.
Do you have a friend, who plays guitar? He might be of great help for this first tasks.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Your oud sounds fine. Good enough to start. What you should do now is spend a good hour a day reading on this forum and all over the internet,
starting with how to tune it. The two strings in a pair are tuned the same.
Common Arabic tuning would be
Bass <- FF AA DD GG CC -> treble
in other words Fa La Re Sol Do
Some people tune that bass string G/Sol, others tune it E/Mi. It's tuned to complement what you're playing. Read and you will find. The top 4 strings
are what you mostly play on. You need to read a lot.
Then spend another hour listening to everything oud-related from youtube and wherever you find oud music.
And finally spend an hour just playing to imitate what you hear and see. Oud music is mostly Arabian music, which is a completely unique world. That's
only 3 hours a day and in a few weeks you'll start to figure it out. Find a risha, a pick, look at pictures, it needs to be several inches long, say
1/2 inch wide and about the thickness of a credit card or less. Use sandpaper to thin it down and taper it. You can cut a starting blank out of a
polyethylene soft drink bottle. If you have no hope of finding a teacher nearby, immediately order OudProf's DVD called "Learn Maqamat on the Oud v
2.0" from e-bay. The best $25 plus shipping you can spend, for less than the price of a single lesson, you will have a wealth of examples and ideas.
welcome!
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Falcony
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
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Thank you littleseb ,Aymara and fernandraynaud for your replies.
I want to take my time learning this instrument and I want to do it "the right way". But since I know there is a huge market for the Oud in the middle
east. I don't want to start learning to play on a fuaulty instrument. The only purpuse would be like littleseb wrote, to get to know the shape of the
oud, how to position myself, risha technique etc.. and this is my main goal right now. And it seems that most of you think its OK to play with this
oud and I think it is to start with.. I can tune it, altough the pegs are very bad quality, I have to "screw them in" when I tighten the strings so it
doesnt glide back..
My main goals right now is just getting used to the physical material itself, hitting the strings etc. And second goal is to tune it properly. I have
downloaded Aptuner which Aymara recommended and used http://www.arabinstruments.com/112730/Online-Oud-Tuner for reference. They match to the notes, but not exactly in cents. Here are my specs from
Aptuner:
1 course= F2 +30
2 course= A2 -30
3 course= D3 -40
4 course= G3 -30
5 course= C4 -15
Is this ok?
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
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Location: london - uk
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sorry, dunno about the tuner.
it is quite normal to 'turn and push' the pegs, and as long as they hold you are alright.
it's definitely a good idea to look for a teacher in your area. when i first started i was looking for a teacher to guide me into the right direction,
but i soon realised that there is no such thing with the oud. it requires a lot of practice and skill to make it sound right, so a year on i'm still
taking weekly lessons and i'm still nowhere near where i want to be.
where do you live?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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Like Littleseb said, that is not unusual ... try to find a violin player, who can tell you which is normal and which is not.
| Quote: |
Here are my specs from Aptuner:
1 course= F2 +30
2 course= A2 -30
3 course= D3 -40
4 course= G3 -30
5 course= C4 -15
Is this ok? |
That will still sound disharmonic ... btw ... the courses are counted from high to low:
1. course = c4
2. course = g3
3. course = d3
4. course = A2
5. course = F2
Regarding the +/- values the tuner shows ... try to keep them below 5 ... not easy, I know
And I would still recommend buying new strings for the standard tuning C-FF-AA-dd-gg-cc ... that sounds better and makes learning easier
Oh ... btw ... you can save a tuning profile for your oud in AP-Tuner ... the standard profile is guitar.
Happy tuning and testing
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
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bare in mind - if you do get new strings (which i recommend), they take a few days to settle, and will sound very out of tune before that. all part of
the game!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Yo, Falcony. You start out like you don't know anything about music and the next thing you're talking about detuning in cents. That's a very complex
subject. I'm not sure if ArabInstruments' on-line tuner is deliberately offset or not. If you have an electronic tuner you can start out tuning it
to Equal Tempered notes and later you can explore subtle offsets. You'll get a feeling for it that you can't impose from theory right now. It's subtle
and it's not essential right now.
If you have a tuner with different temperaments like are used for baroque instruments, you can use a pythagorean or a Valotti setting.
If you have a standard tuner start with standard equal tempered notes. If you are a maniac, you can then explore the harmonics between strings by
barely touching the string at the 5th and 7th "frets" and plucking lightly, then touch up your tuning so they sound right.
Definitely get new strings. Factory strings are worthless. Bill Ostrie sells great Daniel Mari sets for $8. The Arabic and Turkish sets appear to be
the same. If your bridge and nut are set up, by all means install the common 11 strings. Many ouds are drilled and set up to accept 9, 10,11 or 12
strings. 11 is very versatile. The tuning I personally like best is what the ArabInstruments tuner calls "5 double strings plus bass": C EE AA dd gg
cc because then the top 5 courses are all tuned in fifths and you re-tune the bottom string to the maqam you're playing in, with C and D being the
most common.
Unless you get in with the crowd that uses a special violin peg "dope" (do NOT smoke it), a very light (VERY LIGHT) touch of dry ivory type soap and
chalk make a "dry lube" on the pegs that both oppose (chalk) and enable (soap) the rotation. It's the zen balance of these two forces that makes
tuning a spiritual exercise. You must always push in while tuning, that's normal, and unless you invest in planetary type pegs, it's always tricky. Do
not scream and break things. You can pay for the best pegs and have a new bone nut installed and have costly voodoo done, you will still find it
tricky. A set of planetary pegs costs more than your oud.
After a couple weeks the strings stop stretching and you won't have to be retouching the tuning so much. In fact on both ouds I have the stability of
the tuning amazes me.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Hi Tony!
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  |
If you have a tuner with different temperaments like are used for baroque instruments, you can use a pythagorean or a Valotti setting.
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I think that's too much for an absolute beginner
That's why I recommended the software AP-Tuner (as a free quick start), which uses A=440 Hz.
| Quote: | If you are a maniac, you can then explore the harmonics between strings by barely touching the string at the 5th and 7th "frets" and plucking lightly,
then touch up your tuning so they sound right.
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That reminds me of something ... I remember, that someone in the forums posted a fingerboard chart for C-F-A-d-g-c with all notes positions as a PDF
document ... wasn't it you, who posted that? This would be very helpful here.
| Quote: | | ... do NOT smoke it ... |
There it is again ... your great humor 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Falcony
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
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Hi! Useful information from all of you! Thanks.
I have retuned the oud with APtuner, now the cents is between -5 and 5 on all courses. But some of the courses are buzzing etc, but that does not
bother me at the moment since I'm a beginner.. Also the C-string has gone through the nut a little bit in depth, is this normal?
I'm learning through Oudcafe. But I've been thinking about ordering some books with dvd.
The Basics of Oud (Book and DVD) by Marina Toshich.
Oud Method [With CD (Audio)] by John Bilezikjian
What you guys think about these books? Good for me as a beginner?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Marina is a member here, and her book is good. It comes with a very useful DVD, where she shows all the fundamentals. The first part (and the DVD)
will get you started very nicely.
The second part of her book is a collection of "songs" for people who read music already, but that's like a supplementary bonus.
I don't have Bilezikjian's book. It doesn't have a DVD, and since I didn't have a teacher, I wanted some video material.
Not sure what you mean by "the C-string has gone through the nut a little bit in depth". The high C course or the single low C string? And what is it
doing at the nut? A string can only settle in the nut as far down as the slit is cut/filed, so what do you mean? The shape of the grooves/slits in the
nut are very tricky, you don't want to modify them until you really understand, but a little pencil lead or graphite in the grooves can help the
strings tune more smoothly.
The best investment as I mentioned before is OudProf's "Learn Maqamat on Oud v 2".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijZmTxkYsoE
There are videos on tuning, on right and left hand technique, and even reference booklets you can put on your pocket computer. For each of the over 70
core maqamat there is a text explanation, a video clip showing how it's played on the oud and at least one example with a diagram, views of the neck
and fingering, usually two or three examples. Each maqam is tied to a body of tradition that is best learned from examples. You can take your time
learning each of the maqamat, or only what you are interested in. It's a great way to immerse yourself in the foundations of Arabian music on the oud.
Buzzing comes in many forms. A certain amount of buzz wherever you are fingering is natural and what you want. The strings should be low on the
fingerboard and they will vibrate against the wood in all sorts of ways. The fretless bass has what they call "mwhah", which is a specific form of
buzz. The character of the oud sound includes light buzz. DO start with new strings.
p.s. re: String buzz. If a specific string buzzes a lot, the windings might be damaged, or the string sits too low in
the bridge. You can raise an individual string on the bridge by pulling/tying it higher. An uglier buzz that occurs only when you play open strings
and goes away when you finger them is nut buzz. The nut might be too low, or some grooves are cut too deep. You can add tiny pieces of cardboard in
grooves to confirm the cause and as a temporary fix. If the buzzing occurs only when you finger specific notes then the buzzing is due to an unevenly
worn or sanded fingerboard. If the buzzing happens when you play in specific areas up on the neck, say only near the 3rd "fret", then it's a warped
neck. If you sight down the neck like a gun-barrel you can see most of these problems very clearly. A luthier at a guitar repair shop can fix a lot of
minor issues that might give you headaches, very easily.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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I found, that I saved the "fingering chart", so I can post it here.
Left is the nut and the 7th "fret" is where the neck joins the body.
Attachment: OudFingeringChart.pdf (116kB)
This file has been downloaded 499 times
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Oh, yeah, that was one of mine.
Here is the Excel file, so anyone can retune it to whatever tuning they use.
Attachment: OudFingeringchart3.xls (31kB)
This file has been downloaded 243 times
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Falcony
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
Registered: 2-7-2010
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Pegs problem and question about tabs
Hi! I've been reading alot, general about the oud and also some basic music theory (there are good youtube videos for this). And I've also been
watching guitar lessons for beginners.
The problem I'm facing right now is not with myself, but with the Oud I have itself. Its cheap and not good quality I know that.. but as a student I
can not afford a better oud or oud lessons. But I think its better this why, because I learn about the mechanism of the oud and I'm interested in this
as well.
So the problem is that it keeps detuning after a while, and I believe its because two things: bad strings and bad pegs. But it is still possible to
tune it and practice notes on it, altough there is an physical obstacle which I noticed very early in getting to know this oud: One of the pegs is
prevented from being "screwed in" in order to tighten the string, because of the whole that the string is in the peg (see pictures). So I can not
tighten it too much it will get damaged.. problem is that its a bit loose and it doesnt work physically. What can I do ?
I had a question earlier regarding the nut and that "the c-string has gone through the nut a little bit in depth" And was wondering if that was normal
so I took a picture on that as well, see last one.
I've been practing to hit some notes and I use the APtuner and fingerboard pdf which was posted in this thread in order to hit the right notes. Its
going well and I really take my time and am patient. Whilst I learn music theory.. I have been looking at some Oud Tabs I found on this site: http://sites.google.com/site/oudguitare/lestablatures/listetabs
They seem to work fine with my tuning according to the author of the website. The song I'm focusing on right now in learning, is the very intro of Oum
kalthooms "enta omri". But the intro on these Oud tabs doesnt seem to mimic the intro on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeoF74Vu180 which I figured out is started by open strings A and then followed by open string G and then A3
(G-string second fret). But the Oud tabs on http://dc162.4shared.com/download/123377502/f1f59c73/Enta_Omri_02.p... doesnt seem to mimic these notes.
Hope you understand what I mean.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Consult a violin luthier and ask him to replace this piece of junk called nut ...
he also can help you with the peg problem ... he drills a new hole for the string and then you can push it further in.
Also ... as stated clearly several times ... buy good strings! ... and peg compound.
| Quote: | | The song I'm focusing on right now in learning, is the very intro of Oum kalthooms "enta omri". |
Let's wait for further answers here ... I don't play arabic music, sorry.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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If you are handy with tools, and especially if you intend to have it worked on by a pro ANYWAY, take care of it as best you can now. Take out pegs one
at a time so you don't mix them up, and very lightly sand them just to smooth them, mainly so you feel better about them and so they are grateful to
you. Don't they look nicer now? Drill a new hole for the string on that one. Clean up the pegbox with some fine sandpaper and steel wool. Run a little
white very very dry soap and a line of chalk where they meet the pegbox and try to get the pegs to turn and hold, to settle in. It's hard to be sure
but they look like olivewood. That's not bad. If you smooth them and work with them, lube very lightly with soap and chalk , you can probably get them
to work much better. Are those the original strings? REPLACE FACTORY STRINGS.
http://www.ostriemusicsupplies.com/marioud-ar.htm
It takes a week or so for good strings to stop stretching. It takes weeks for factory type strings to settle, they stretch until they hit the garbage
pail.
With the nut as long as the strings stay in place, don't mess with it. One C string a hair lower than the other? If that's the magnitude of your
worries, mate, I'd say you're doing fine. It's not a wood-shop beauty contest, as long as it does the job, it's fine for now.
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Falcony
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
Registered: 2-7-2010
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I read in the forum that there is a way to add "dots" on the neck to make it easier fot the beginner to find the notes.. Or is this not recommended?
I've found a good guitar beginner course which is free http://www.justinguitar.com with videos and everything.. really in detail describing how to play. But I have a feeling that this doesnt apply to
the Oud as well.. I mean hitting D-chords, C-chords etc.. is this different on the oud, or same ?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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If it helps you, it's recommended
Use the tuner to find the "frets" and place fret markings at the side of the neck with adhesive tape so you can easily remove them later.
| Quote: | | ... is this different on the oud, or same ? |
It's different. On the oud you usually use a tuning of C-F-A-d-g-c, which you could change to C-E-A-d-g-c, which is closer to guitar, but still
different ... on guitar you have E-A-D-g-b-e.
And most guitar beginner courses are based on chords ... on oud you usually don't play chords, but melodies or bass lines.
But you could check out of which notes the guitar chords consist and search these notes on the oud to create simple melodies.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Falcony
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
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Ok, so for a beginner.. what maqam or exercise is easiest to practice on? There is some exercises on oudcafe, but I don't really understand them..
I've been thinking about ordering Marinas oud basics.. but I just need some string exercises and easy notes to startoff with.. because I noticed that
guitar exercises wont work with oud, because like you said Ayamara, the tuning is different
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Sorry, I can't help you with arabic music ... let's wait for the others.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Falcony, let me say this one more time: get OudProf's DVD "Learn Maqamat on Oud V2.0". It will cost you about $40 including shipping and it shows you
many exercises, how to tune, plus all the main maqamat as scales to practice, examples, etc. The reference stuff from the internet is great, you will
come back to it and use it, but you need something now that mainly shows you charts of the maqamat with closeups of a person playing them, so you
have something to imitate.
Marina's book + DVD is fine, but if you're short on cash and can only buy one, OudProf's is a better investment if you want to learn the Maqamat on
oud. A guitar book is completely wrong for oud, it has very little in common. OudProf's DVD has material you will use for a long time. It shows you
how to play the maqamat on video, many with one shot of the fingering on the neck and another camera angle on the plucking hand. That's exactly what
can best help you.
Everybody starts with Rast, it's the C Major of the Maqam world, and in fact starts on C.
Markers are fine. They can be placed on the neck or on the strings once they have settled. You can use the free WFRET program to position your
markers. See
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9584
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Falcony
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
Registered: 2-7-2010
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Maqam rast ´+ Soundfile
I've ordered Marinas book, should come this week or the next. I've been reading alot, and I've also tried to play the rast maqam.. I've recorded
when playing it, but I do not know if its correctly played.. I used oud tutor to figure out the notes to be played. Using tonic C.. I've attached the
recording in this post.. listen and see if its correct.thanx
Attachment: maqamrast.mp3 (386kB)
This file has been downloaded 272 times
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