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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
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The Term "Oud Master" whats it mean?
This has confused me for a while, what makes an oud master?
In a recent mikeouds post, it advertises Yair Dalal as an Oud Master.
For me Yair Dalal's oud playing has not been special, his intonation is not very good nor its content not masterful by any oud standards...
Now he has a masterclass...I dont get this...
Is it just me Or is master just a term thrown away by the west at anyone who plays oud?
Rabih abou khalil is another player who shares the same title Master and Virtuoso and is actually a poor oud player, but is a good composer I
guess.
Who are your oud masters?
Im just confused...
Thoughts?
Confused James
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jazzchiss
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I think you're hypercritical. Everything is relative, and everyone can be a master for someone.
I enjoy much more the violin of Yair Dalal than his oud .
About Abou-Khalil, I do think he is a virtuoso, but his compositions bore me.
Master is only a word.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Maybe Jazzchiss hit it on the head: everyone can be a master for someone.
If someone says you're a master, you're a master. All it takes is one satellite to make a sun. If YOU say you're a master, you're a dork. If you bribe
someone to say you're a master, you're probably a dork in advertising. If many people say you're a master, you're in politics. If you bribe many
people to say you're a master, you're a dork in politics. If everybody says you're a master, they are afraid.
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zou
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this question is important thanks to jamesoud:
For me it's directly related to our sens of glorification of persons, a master is someone who has a true musical vision (real prospective) for this
instrument, he has also his own style, i know it's a subjective definition but (like a guru) the master must have the vison, the unique style,
virtuosity is not suffiscant, hamza din for exemple (allah yerhamou) had somthing bayond the virtuosity, he was a master... riadh al sumbaty also, one
phrase from riadh alsumbati could be a lesson of mastery...
ziad
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Zou, when you say glorification of persons, do you mean it's positive or negative?
It IS an important question. But for Westerners there's a tie-in to the concept of "artist", which is, when you think about it, a fiction of the
Romantic era, leading to the "artiste revolté" of the early 20th century. This is opposite to the concept of "craftsman" or "artisan", and also tied
to a sort of pseudo-spiritual concept, that the artist is exploring a deeper reality with his discipline, his suffering and his liberty, all too often
interpreted as decadence and rebellion. If Jean Genet played the oud, he would be a Master.
Khalil Gibran comes to mind, in connection with the Oud, as he captured the Western concept for his own, and his nations's, use very effectively,
endowing himself with a cloak of mystery. He was in time treated as a "master" in emigre and artist circles of his adopted Boston, and later in
Arabic, though in actuality he was neither a student aof a serious spiritual practice, nor an initiate of a religious tradition, a prophet, nor of
anything.
I stand to be corrected, but as far as i know, and this is strange, Gibran, though he later came to be accepted as an English-language and ultimately
an Arabic writer, was barely literate in his native languages until mid-life. He was as little of a traditional "master" as the other clever "masters"
of the early 20th century, from Mme Blavatsky, Rasputin and Gurdjieff to Jonathan Livingston Seagull and Mme Landowska. Where the "master" actually
has a specific skill, like Landowska and the notable Oud players, it's refreshing. Where mystique for its own sake dominates, it's less so.
I hope that our Middle Eastern brothers here have a different and less neurotic view of musical talent. What do you understand by the term "oud
master"?
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
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Hey guys,
Jazzchiss, Rabih Abou khalil is not an oud virtuoso, he actually plays very poorly. He cant execute anything on his instrument properly, lets say
compared to shaheen, he is worlds away, and he plays awfully out of tune. Thats why he plays with brass and the oud level is low. His compositions are
his saving grace. I wouldnt consider him a master, only a "Master of advertising". Heres his virtuosity here at 5:40 where its the most awful solo
with his oud out of tune for an "in the studio" session.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EK_ca0T5vw&feature=related
Oud standard in the West is just easily acceptable and any oud player can be a master these days. Why is it only this music where we can have poor oud
playing glorified due to lack of knowledge. Hamza al Din is a master, because he can play in tune for one, not a technical master but a master of
nubian folk which doesnt require more than what he does and he grows on it.
RIyad al sunbati has melodic phrasing and soul and plays in tune again, and proved himself as a master through compositions for people etc.
Im just saying, these days, anyone can put a band together, have a basic playing of oud with no extended knowledge or respect for the instrument and
call themselves a master.
We have no quality control! and thats the issue, people that are basic out of tune players can be paraded as virtuoses when theyre not and masters
when theyre not. Thats my opinion, all Im asking is are we ever gonna have quality control or a free for all?
Thanks,
Still confused James
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Free for all
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
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Perfect...
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bibo10
Oud Junkie
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quality control lol
I totally agree with James
+++++++++++
Michael-GOD BLESS EGYPT
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dubai244
Oud Junkie
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Hi guys,
first, I totally agree that there is no quality control at all.
Second, I would like to subtitute the word "master" with word " Professional". They are professional oud players that inflowance so many people with
there music such as: Jameel Bashir, Munir Bashir, Naseer shamma, Yurdal Tokcan. There "Professional" presented there as music as part of there culture
and tradition music. Munir for example presented the iraqi style and his pieces still very affective and still played by so many oud admirers. Yurdal
presented the turkish oud to world and setup a very good example of turkish music player.
Third, for commercial reason, they add "Master" to be accepted by the people as "Master" oud player. Which very cheap way of confince people that they
are "master" oud player.
Thanks
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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The word "Master" in the oriental tradition has more the meaning suggested by Zou. In fact, and up to early 20th century, "quality control" existed,
no one could call himself a master, the title "Sheikh Tarab" or "Mouallem" needed to be earned. In Cairo and in Aleppo and probably in other big
cities a musician needed to be the disciple of a known master, this the first step. The second step was when the master decided that his disciple has
become good enough to be called master, at this point the master called for an assembly of all the master musicians, including the Big Chief master,
and the aspiring master had to play in their presence without any audience, if the assembly agrees, a new master was accepted.
The last Big Chief in Cairo was Sheikh Abdel Rahim Al Masloub (the composer of Ah Ya Helou), he also ruled the copyright issues between
composers.(there is a famous story between Mohammad Osman and Abdo Al Hamouly)
The Master has not to be a virtuoso, it is about having a deep knowledge of the maqams and the tradition and having also the duty to transmit his
knowledge.
The totality of Mouwashahat known in 1932 where recorded by Sheikh ??? (I can't remember his name right now), he was considered as a great master even
though his voice was far from being nice to hear, he sings right in tune and he has memorized all the original tunes, his knowledge was a reference
even though he is not a singer.
It is also known that even the king Mohamed Ali Al Kabir was unable to force the guild to recognize a master.
So quality control existed, but like many good things it has been forgotten.
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
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Guys,
I agree with the above Dubai...but the examples Im giving of Yair and Rabih dont have a basic knowledge or application of oud technique.
Look at the clip I posted above, Rabih doesnt even have his oud strings tuned (in a closed session recording) and its such an awful improvisation any
way you look at it, yet he sells it with his deep facial expressions and as genuine. This is not masterful, its rubbish, yet they even give him the
title of Virtuoso. Look at Yair also, very rarely does he have any piece intune, yet he's giving a masterclass. He's learnt a few scales and now he's
virtuoso...
As we said, its a free for all. This is an example of where lack of practice is rewarded, what message is this giving young oud players? dont
practice, just be convincing and good marketers? We need consitent quality, theres too much garbage out there and that stuff is shaping what the West
think about oud and thats my issue. Quarter tones are bad enough for the West let alone playing them out of tune, now we can both alienate the west
and east with poor technique. Maybe the eskimos will applaude it...
Thanks,
Stil very confused James
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zou
Oud Junkie
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jamesoud : it's a chanse for our conception of music and art in general for not having a "quality control" it will be a desaster i think, it's a
question of subjective or objective way of thinking, as for "mastery" i think that there is a relationship first with the instrument (knowledge,
style...) and anoyher relationship with public, rabih abou khalil is one of the first oudplayers to compose with jazz éléments and in a way he was
"futurist" and we have to recognize this to him, the mastery is not only playing in tune (mathematical conception).it's a matter of impact ;
"rayonnement" in french.
i mean by glorification of person : the way we mistify the persons (we keep them out of constructive criticism) and it is not négative but it could
be.
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Cocomaan
Oud Lover
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Anyone ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintinence? Great book - the main philosophical dilemma in that book is the question: what is quality?
So, what distinguishes good writing playing from mediocre playing? Mastery from mere professionalism?
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by Cocomaan  | Anyone ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintinence? Great book - the main philosophical dilemma in that book is the question: what is quality?
So, what distinguishes good writing playing from mediocre playing? Mastery from mere professionalism? |
I read it 
Excellent book!
I neither believe in nor do I wish "dictatorshiplike" (disgised in "control") over who is "master" or who is "good"...
We all can, and should listen to the players we like!
If you thinks Rabia (for example) is bad, just don't listen to him. Why should you care what others think??!
No one can DECIDE for you who to like or dislike!!
I am skeptic to this thema! It sounds to me like pepeole are trying to IMPOSE there opinion about who IS a master and who is NOT! There are NO
absolute TRUTH in here that anyone can claim they KNOW.
Hamze al din, for example, is being used her some example på en ABSOLUT truth (that he IS a master).
Well I used to say that Hamze (god bless his soul), plays the oud like my brother: Bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We can have any meaning we want to have.
But why should we impose our meaning on others???????
NO TO CONTROL
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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bibo10
Oud Junkie
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I don't think the word "control" is meant in that way, i think u mean "dictatorship" or "enforcing", the control we talking about here is "quality
control" big difference!
No one wants to see someone that is not good, go on TV or anywhere and be recognized as a master or a virtuoso or whatever. Even worse, we all hate to
see someone not qualified represent a school of playing or specific style or a country!
We have all been exposed to "MASTERS," true masters from different schools i.e Riyad el Sunbati, El Qasabji, Farid, Munir Bashir, and i honestly hate
to see anyone represent these schools. It is a shame. Now that the oud is growing more than ever, i think they are many out there who don't deserve
the reputations they earned! This is a critical time to apply quality control or otherwise we ll get lost in the middle of the mess and the oud could
possibly lose it's flavor
So I think that is what is meant by quality control
+++++++++++
Michael-GOD BLESS EGYPT
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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I kind of see your point Bibo.
But I don't think I misunderstand the words "control" vs. "dictatorship".
You mean that Monir Bashir IS a master, and you (and many many) others makes sound like it is an absolut truth!
Well, that to me is as much "dictatorship" as it is "control"!
I don't think Monir HAD a school. I don't think he was a master (he has good technique, yes. But as Alami puts it: that is not what a master is
about!). And no matter what people say, I will never change my mind about that.
But it seems to me that you want to IMPOSE this/your "control" on me, when you (and others) take it for an absolut truth that he was a master (God
rest his soul too).
And some (maybe you too) tend to think that I (luttgutt) is simply an IDIOT because I can't SEE that he WAS a master.
See? that is why I am thinking that this control goes over to becoming dectatorship.
I hope I formulate myself clearly (though I have the feeling that i did not 
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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ameer
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | Maybe Jazzchiss hit it on the head: everyone can be a master for someone.
If someone says you're a master, you're a master. All it takes is one satellite to make a sun. If YOU say you're a master, you're a dork. If you bribe
someone to say you're a master, you're probably a dork in advertising. If many people say you're a master, you're in politics. If you bribe many
people to say you're a master, you're a dork in politics. If everybody says you're a master, they are afraid. |
Very well put. I think that's about as good an objective definition as we're ever going to get. Permit me to approach the issue from another angle:
in the US, many musicians would judge the current "popular" music as severely lacking in musicianship etc while the masses revere it as the greatest
thing since sliced bread. At the same time even the most pretentious musician can't help but be pulled in by the catchyness of certain highly simple
tunes. Putting aside the "stupid masses question," I have often wondered if it is possible for someone to be "great" in as close to an objective
musical sense as we can have while being popular at the same time? We have the masters of the heart and the masters of the brain if you will: the
masters of the heart speak completely to your emotions and the masters of the brain speak to your cerebral understanding of music through technique,
composition, etc. In my mind a true musical master can speak to both in some capacity, though let's face it: for most people, the heart is it. Seeing
as people's hearts lean towards different things in music you're almost guaranteed that the definition of master is subjective.
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
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Oud is doomed...
I dont think that because some body is a first in doing something gives them the right to parade themselves like a pro. Rabih was one of the first
with this jazz stuff, but the plain fact is, he is a very poor oud player. His improvisations lack all elements of musicianship. He is quite frankly
not an oud player. So you have that as an oud ambassador to the West then the perception to any Westerner who has ears or a basic understanding would
think that all oud players cant tune their ouds and essentially the music is out of tune.
Munir Bashir is a master of space, I think he has a wonderful technique with beautiful phrasing, so you should listen closer Lutt I dont like every oud player, but I can appreciate whos put in the hard yards and
earned the title. FOr instance Im not a big fan of turkish oud, but when you hear Yurdal Tockan, you can appreciate that he has a mastery, same with
alot of players. In the Turkish oud style, there is a quality control and thats why you dont get example of such players like Rabih appearing in
Turkey, they just wouldnt have it. Even if you dont like Munir Bashir, you being a musician I hope you would be able to identify and feel his "proper"
musiciansship, and appreciate his mastery
Rabih is very smart, he plays a nahat and uses a feather beause he is so genuine, yet cant play oud like most amateur oud players still learning. I
think you have to earn your stripes. Learning three scales and then representing oud on wider scale is an insult to the music and in Rabihs case, he
should practice more or at least learn how to tune the instrument first before taking the stage...
Nice discussing James...
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Wow, what a good topic. I am happy to see the traditionalists hang on to something close to my view, that real art is a craft and reflects knowledgde
and skill, not a "deep life" with deep facial expressions. I think the oud is in a transition/entry stage and in a couple of decades it will all sort
itself out. One of two ways.
One way is like the sitar where an instrument goes back into it's ethnicity of origin and sinks (to the rest of the planet) into relative obscurity.
Another is like the tabla or duduk where it's continuing to be more widely used, no longer in just the traditional ways, and whoever can make it sound
good is recognizable, no need for committees of sheiks, because it's no longer JUST one peoples' instrument. That has benefits, and it has
down-sides.
We don't want to lose the Maqam theory that goes with the oud, not because it's the only right way, but because it can ADD to the world's music.
Let's not worry too much. Take advantage for now of being able to impress naive and well-meaning (let's never forget that!) Western audiences (and
maybe Sharkki audiences that aren't as expert as they like to think) with only a little skill, and be as good as you can and be respectful, and
practice a lot, and let us make more friends for the oud and broaden all music to bridge the world.
If more people in the West get exposed to MidEastern music and the MidEast is exposed to higher quality Western music than just rock and trance, then
all is well! I wouldn't worry about so-and-so not practicing enough, it's a self-correcting issue I think, and no quality control board could add
anything positive.
It's also a little like the poorly finished ouds that are so common; in a while nobody will want them. I hope it doesn't take a Chinese wipeout of
native luthiers to bring quality to the oud. Yet ironically that may be the signal we are waiting for, that the oud has arrived.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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We are at a time when nobody is sure what art is, what is innovative and hence unexpected and what is pretentious noise masquerading as creative
genius.
A harpischordist who played in Berkeley last month, and is a prof of music in London, receives mild ovations for scratching and yanking the parts of
her harpsichord on stage. I call that BS. Absurd, if nothing else because there are SO MUCH better ways to make innovative sounds. Interestingly she
can play Bach quite well.
At the same time, it's worth saying that some people who can hardly play have something to communicate. This is true in all types of music, that some
people who play an instrument at a minimal level somehow master something important, and the public can respond to innovation that advances the art.
Brian Eno is brilliant, a master, I think, though he is no virtuoso. Rabih at times makes good music, he doesn't have to be a consumate oud player.
In this sense I agree with LuttGutt. Young peoples' music, Blues, Jazz, Rock, while at times a cement-bed of repetition, is at other times a home for
innovation. A quality control based on technical know-how can only serve to reinforce a status quo, for better or worse. What if Andres
Segovia had wanted to test and (not) certify Jimi Hendrix?
An instrument in transition, like the electric guitar was for a long time, or the oud might yet be, is useful. It's an opportunity, where the
unexpected is OK.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud |
Munir Bashir is a master of space, I think he has a wonderful technique with beautiful phrasing, so you should listen closer Lutt
Even if you dont like Munir Bashir, you being a musician I hope you would be able to identify and feel his "proper" musiciansship, and appreciate his
mastery
Rabih is very smart, he plays a nahat and uses a feather beause he is so genuine, yet cant play oud like most amateur oud players still learning. I
think you have to earn your stripes. Learning three scales and then representing oud on wider scale is an insult to the music and in Rabihs case, he
should practice more or at least learn how to tune the instrument first before taking the stage...
|
Well, I have to say that I don't like the discussion is going at all... but I feel that I have to answer.
When you say: "I think....."
I tell you: "good for you!"
But when you write: "Monir is a master"
I'll tell you: "so you say"
And when you write: "you should lisen closer lutt"
I'll tell you: "you ARE the dictator! You are a "know better" person. You think that you OWN the absolute truth. And those who disagree with you, have
to learn to listen!!"
Can I put it any CLEARER? 
P.s. Rabih, no metter how good or bad he is (or you THINK he is), has created a huge WAVE in music that THOUSEND of players ARE riding. And THAT you
CANNOT deny no matter what you say.
Monir, inspite of his good technique, has created NOTHING!
And of course, you DON'T have to agree with me (abviously you don't). But that does NOT intitle me to tell you that you'll have to go "listen"
more!!!
See what I mean?
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
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You're so defensive Lutt, maybe you should like to some masterful Monir oud playing to calm you down...
In honesty, I think Monir is very significant and he was one of the first oud players to bring the oud to the west...thanks to Monir you may have
never heard of oud Lutt.
I do sense you're a little bit heated. Im not a dictator, I just have a good point. so chill will ya, or dont, its up to you, can I put it any
clearer?
Im telling you there should be standards. I dont care about popularity or waves, I care about content and who deserves to be a Master. If you think
Rabih is a master then maybe I have given you too much credit as a musician with a little vision...
Chilled James
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tchandler
Oud Maniac
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Perhaps this thread should have been titled "we hate Rabih Abou Khalil"!
I kind of like the idea to question the word "master" and I kind of think it's an excuse to spread negativity and scorn to those you personally
dislike.
As Fernanraynoud said, you don't have to be technically virtuosic to have something to say or to make good music.
tom
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
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Dont forget Yair Dalal too...
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