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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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I don't think we are speeking the same language 
If you say you "think" Monir is a master, then you think Monir is a master, piriod.
But if you say Monir IS a master, I tell you who are you to decide??
And this is not ONLY about Monir or Rabih, but about ALL. Monir was just an example!
Do you understand now? 
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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Its good to see you've chilled...
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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James,
I can't thank you enough for starting this thread and sticking with it.
It's important that we make every attempt to resist the somewhat ridiculous practice of labeling musicians who we're suddenly impressed by (or we
individually perceive as playing better than us) as masters. It doesn't do anything positive towards furthering an appreciation or understanding of
the art of the oud, and it's not helpful to the musicians themselves on their paths towards playing better/more beautiful music. Why does a musician
you admire need to be a labeled "master"? What added value do they have as a master that they lack if they're "just" a good oudist, a
professional player, a passionate amateur, or a diligent student – one whose playing has really moved you in that moment?
As someone who has spent a lot of time in Turkey around communities of professional folk and art musicians, including some named earlier in this
thread, I've never seen the term "ustad" used by Turkish-speakers for living musicians under the age of 70. The term "hoca" (an honorific for
"teacher," but which tells us more about a teacher-student relation than a comparative measure of quality) is used by students in referring to their
own teacher. Being a "master" has no particular value in and of itself, and is not something you'd really want to point out in public, it is kind of
embarrassing to do so.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Hey, I appriciate your concern!
But I am neither heated nor chilled. This is just an allergic reaction I have against dictators, masters, know-better persons etc..
But I am OK, it is nothing serious
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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Its good to see you're still chilled, so much so that I think you might of over done it and are now cold, thats how your personality comes across
anyway.
It must be awful having an allergic reaction to yourself, Im glad you've been able to live with yourself all these years
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bibo10
Oud Junkie
Posts: 300
Registered: 11-10-2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
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Mood: No Mood
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I think James is asking for a fight hahahahah
+++++++++++
Michael-GOD BLESS EGYPT
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fhalaw
Oud Junkie
Posts: 144
Registered: 7-9-2009
Location: Montreal, Qc
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Mood: No Mood
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Personally, when I think of Masters of the oud, I think of people remembered, imitated and their playing studied (or will be) long after their death.
Same as oud makers, whose ouds are sought after even when they are long gone.
People who are very mainstream. So if collectively a majority agree on the person's masterfullness , the random alternative person who disagrees
doesn't matter(like Luttgut, no offense).
Personally I find Anouar Brahams music a cure for insomnia, however the guy is clearly a Master of his domain.
A lot people dont like Marcel khalifa's stuff(I worship him), but he is in himself a music institution.
Much like sports 'legends'. Its all about being Mainstream.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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I totally agree with fhalaw!
And YES, what I (luttgutt) think doesn't change a thing about Monir, and you (guys) shouldn't really care.
And likewise, what you say does not affect Rabia (neither me). You are free, and so am I (you keep forgetting that it seems
And I agree with James that Rabih is a good "busness man". And there are people out there that "get" the label "master" without desurving it. But who
cares??? I still don't see what is the big deal!!
Yes, Rabia is a bad player and a good busness man. But can we deny him what he did for MUSIC??
Did you listen to "Al JAdida" and "Blue Camel"? If that music was good enough for Steeve Swallow and Kenny Wheeler and many more BIG worldwide know
musisions to PLAY along with, I wander who we are to dismiss him with such disrespect? No matter what you or I "think" or mean.
I don't understand what is the big deal: you like whom you like and I like whom I like!
I still have the feeling that we are speeking the same language
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
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Mood: big band envy
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Hi guys,
I have to say I am hesitant to join this thread, but I think that I can point out that everyone is kind of correct in this discussion on mastery.
Not too long ago, I myself was made very uncomfortable by the organizer/promoter of one of my group's concerts describing me as a "master" of oud.
That made me feel very uncomfortable, like an impostor really, but what I understood is that the promoter was trying to sell tickets. I also believe
that the promoter does actually like my playing and me as a person, but the commercial side of it was clear in my mind. It has unfortunately become a
reflexive part of the vocabulary, and does cheapen the word a little.
I honestly don't believe that I am a master of the oud, though I do on occasion enjoy the sounds I make on the oud, or the melodies that I compose.
And I truly believe that many of my teachers are masters on many levels, so I feel that I know what that word means, at least in my mind, so perhaps I
have the potential for mastery at some point in my life (as do we all).
The truth is, every musician is a master of their own playing. Kenny Werner's book Effortless Mastery is a great book on this topic. That I
believe is the whole idea of being comfortable in your playing style.
As was said before, perhaps someone is a master of makam knowledge. A master of taksim. A master of repertoire. A master of certain techniques. Of
composing, or of playing sweetly, even if the melodies are simple.
Or, perhaps a true master has mastered all of the above and more. Or, perhaps a true master is just someone who is absolutely comfortable within
their playing and style - as Kenny Werner might contend.
The point is, I think that we can easily separate what we can see is simple commercial hype from true mastery of a style or instrument.
And also, I think it is important to remember that one recording session, or one concert appearance, do not always represent the best a player/singer
can do. For whatever reason, whether it be perceived commercial pressures or simply being uncomfortable in a given studio or performance situation,
sometimes the amazing playing you'll hear from someone in a more casual setting is not what you get in the "professional" setting, where you expect it
most.
Maybe I haven't really added anything to the discussion here, but again, I think everything has pretty much been said. There are different
definitions of the idea of mastery, and it is pretty easy to tell the difference between a master of marketing and a master of makam, taksim,
technique, etc.
Either way, I hope we focus on the music we enjoy.
Take care,
mavrothis
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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The point is, I think that we can easily separate what we can see is simple commercial hype from true mastery of a style or instrument. - Mavrotis
This is what Im talking about, I dont think people can or do, hence lack of quality control.
As for kenny wheeler and whoever rabih plays with, that is created by him to assert his insecurity, Im sure he knows he's bad but convincing some
players thats tradition, then you cant argue with that....very smart.
Anyway, I just wish the oud was at a higher standard and not verything accepted as mastery...
Tired James...
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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James, when a musician has picked on the musicianship and ethics of another musician in public more than 3 times in as many days, I attribute it to
some sort of personal issue, and immediately discount whatever has been said. The bell of BS has just rung. Dingggg . I'm going to have to check out
Rabih and Kenny Wheeler in depth. I had no idea, but they must be masters .... ;-)
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jazzchiss
Oud Junkie
Posts: 217
Registered: 12-20-2004
Location: Madrid
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Mood: Improvising
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Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud  | Hey guys,
Jazzchiss, Rabih Abou khalil is not an oud virtuoso, he actually plays very poorly. He cant execute anything on his instrument properly, lets say
compared to shaheen, he is worlds away, and he plays awfully out of tune. Thats why he plays with brass and the oud level is low. His compositions are
his saving grace. I wouldnt consider him a master, only a "Master of advertising". Heres his virtuosity here at 5:40 where its the most awful solo
with his oud out of tune for an "in the studio" session.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EK_ca0T5vw&feature=related
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I don’t like this session either. It’s just a bad day. I used to by all the records of RAK. As Luttgutt said, records as Al Jadida, Blue Camel,
Tarab… were remarkable, for me they are already in the history of the jazz of the end of the twentieth century. Nowadays I don’t like so much the
companions he chose, but I don’t think his success is a matter of marketing, but of talent, character and leadership, and I admire him for that.
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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Would you be happy to send Rabih as a solo ambassador for the oud?
Would you be happy for him to represent a taqasim?
If so, then thats our quality control. Im not saying dont like his music, he has great music. I also dont deny he is a leader.
My issue is the OUD. On those albums you can barely hear him play oud amongst the other instruments.
Im not trying to convince anyone, just asking why he can represent oud as a virtuoso or master when he plays it so poorly.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Dear James, I understand that you want to have some standard for oud. We all want that!
But it seems to me (and I hope that I am mistaken about that) that you want to put the standard YOURSELF! You are not alone in the world!
But at least I think I see now why we are disagreeing.
Corresct me if I am wrong, but when you write
I get the feeling that for you Oud=taqsim.
While for me Oud is a full worthy musical instrument that is hold by a musisien.
And that will change my whole perception of this discussion.
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Lutt, actually you make a good point. It seems like I wana set the standard but I dont really, I just wish that the term master or virtuoso isnt
thrown around at people with basic abilities with oud. Hence a standard.
Like violin in the western world, you can tell whos not so good and whos a real master or virtuoso. Is that too much to ask that we also have a
similar standard?
As for taqasim, I think its a very big part of oud and an oud players ability, something we cant deny. Sorry to bring Rabih back, but he also does
taqasim in his pieces, but they are really bad, do you agree? They are even bad by musical standards. Taqasim aside, The other question is, would you
be happy for Rabih to be a solo ambassador for the oud?
Again, here Im talking about Oud and not ensemble music with oud.
I think this is an important question...
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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Ps. Should not an oud "master" or "virtuoso", have a competent knowledge of most aspects relating to oud and be able to execute them?
From Wikipedia: The defining element of virtuosity is the performance ability of the musician in question, who is capable of displaying feats of skill
well above the average performer. Musicians focused on virtuosity are commonly[vague] criticized for overlooking substance and emotion in favor of raw
technical prowess.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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I am glad we now understand each others words (what we mean by them).
So...
1- No I don't like the term Master, or the way it is used!
I agree with Alami, Master is an old term used between teacher and student.
My judo teacher is MY master, and not A master! And I never introduce him as Master!!
I will never call any oud player a master!! But there are of course lots of them that I admire!
2- yes, taqsim is an important part of "oud" (most importantly for the conservatives!). I am NOT a conservative (And that applies not only to music!).
And I want MORE from the oud. I want the oud to become A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT in the full sense. Not just someone sitting alone playing the same.....
3- I personnaly don't like Rabia's way of playing oud. Does that make him BAD? Who am I to judge???
But as Jasschiss says, those CD's of his are now in the "hisyory of jazz"! Who can deny that?
4- And no, by no means I would want him as oud ambassador. But NEITHER would I want Monir as ambassador!!!!
Actually if you give ME the chose, and if I HAVE to, I'll chose Rabia!
P.s. The way Monir used those animal skin jackets, and poses like a self made king (Master) makes me sick!
5- The Monir school you talk about is actually Jamil Bashir's!
History can be very mean 
6- And yes, Monir is a good Taqsim and technique, but that is NOT enough for me! But I fully understand if it is enough for you. And that is
perfectly OK (as long as we understand each others definitions!).
7- Rabia's "improvises" in the CD's I mentioned. He does NOT play "taqsim". There is a big defference between the two!
P.s. that does not have to do with quality, it is just two defferent musical expressions.
8- Nowadays, it is not possible anymore to be good at all styles. It is not like in the old days.
At least in my point of view. Because, as I said, I want oud to do more then "just" taqsim.
And YES, thank you for this threat
| Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud | Lutt, actually you make a good point. It seems like I wana set the standard but I dont really, I just wish that the term master or virtuoso isnt
thrown around at people with basic abilities with oud. Hence a standard.
Like violin in the western world, you can tell whos not so good and whos a real master or virtuoso. Is that too much to ask that we also have a
similar standard?
As for taqasim, I think its a very big part of oud and an oud players ability, something we cant deny. Sorry to bring Rabih back, but he also does
taqasim in his pieces, but they are really bad, do you agree? They are even bad by musical standards. Taqasim aside, The other question is, would you
be happy for Rabih to be a solo ambassador for the oud?
Again, here Im talking about Oud and not ensemble music with oud.
I think this is an important question...
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The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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fhalaw
Oud Junkie
Posts: 144
Registered: 7-9-2009
Location: Montreal, Qc
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I am think of becoming a master myself..
But maybe next week, I have too much work to do this week and a lot of laundry.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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| Quote: Originally posted by fhalaw | I am think of becoming a master myself..
But maybe next week, I have too much work to do this week and a lot of laundry.
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The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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I'm always wary of the term "Oud Master", especially when used in "The West", - what the heck do we know!?!
It's like when a home audio product has the word "professional" in it's name - you never see that word on REAL professional gear!
I'm sure these players don't call themselves master, but coming from the promoter it puts bums on seats.
Presenting Mr "so-so/average oud player" just wouldn't do the business!
You either get sucked into the hype, or you just reach for a risha and keep on playing..., you never know when you might turn into a Master!
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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Well, there goes any hope of having a higher standard of oud. Any player can now be a master, with basic capabilities.
Lutt, I dont understand "thank you for this threat", did you mean thread? Two
different things with a world of difference...
Basically, as I understand now, anyone can be a master. You can perform and play badly on the stage, have no direction, as long as you manage to fool
the audience. Got it!
I still think to be a Master, or even a player, you should be able to play in tune and you should be able to do taqasim, ok, lets take taqasim out of
it, an improvisation. What Rabih does is neither, it has no direction or phrasing or height or sweetness and this is because he's not good at it. All
his music is carried by others. Cant anyone not hear that on most if not all, his oud is not intune to begin with?
Lutt, you say "I want MORE from the oud. I want the oud to become A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT in the full sense. Not just someone sitting alone playing the
same....."
Do you think its going to become this, if we have poor players representing it? Theres plenty of great stuff out there, unfortunately marketing is
the real master.
An OUD MASTER should at least have a basic knowledge if not a vast knowledge of taqasim and the aspects related to it.
You also say "Nowadays, it is not possible anymore to be good at all styles. It is not like in the old days. At least in my point of view. Because, as
I said, I want oud to do more then "just" taqsim."
First of all, no oud players do 'just' taqasim, its a very big part of an oud player but not 'just' the only thing.
Im also not talking about ALL STYLES, Im talking about OUD, yes, you can be good at all aspects of oud and earn the term Master or virtuoso, its just
rarer and thats the point, the people that can do that are special players, earn their term master. Why do we have to group the people that cant with
the people that can. This is our problem.
Thanks.
Ps. Lutt, who are the players you like and who do you listen to on the oud?
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Oh NO! we are still misunderstanding each other 
1- Yes, I ment Thread (bad inglish) 
2- You wrote: "Any player can now be a master"
No James! I never said or ment that!
what I tried to say is that to me there are NO masters no more! We now call them teachers!!
3- I believe I was very clear in saying that I DON'T think Rabia is a good player. But that is MY opinen! And I can't, and don't want to impose my
opinien on the world. Neither should you.
4- Yes there are bad players (it is inavitable. Not everybody can be good!). But there are good players too!! I just listen to those I want to listen
too. Why do you need to listen to the others?? (I for one don't listen to Monir )
5- you say
"First of all, no oud players do 'just' taqasim"
Well what did Monir do? Did he leave behind any recording that went into music history???? Rabia DID!!
6- You say:
"Im also not talking about ALL STYLES, Im talking about OUD"
Well, I don't understand your point here!? Are you talking about Oud independently of music?? As a musical instrument or as a historical
instrument??
Again thanks for the Thread
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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Im glad you werent thankful for the threat!
Monir actually has alot of pieces, most famously and played throughout the oud world is "asfour al ta'er" (The Flying bird) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQmqoAu4lPQ&feature=related
This is one of the most famous repertoire pieces for students and oud players.
Theres also plenty of music pieces by Mounir which you can find in the arab world, maybe they didnt make it into the west as much.
As, for Rabih, I don think he's in jazz history at all. If you speak to anyone about jazz, they will say Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, John Coltrane
etc and I assure you NO Rabih Has he won a grammy or any jazz awards? no.
Actually Anouar Brahem has, maybe because he deserves it and is a great player.
As for styles, I interpreted this as "genre", no player can be perfect on all genres.
Thanks for the responses Lutt, we're coming closer to middle ground.
Ps. which oud players do you listen to?
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Yes yes, I ment "genre" not style
Well of course I have heard asfour al tayer. I think it is boaring. I thik there is NOTHING musical about it (that is MY opinion, not a TRUTH). It is
no more then a sale excersice to me.
There are many many many more names that it is impossible to list all, but the few you mention, Miles Davis and the rest, is the old jazz school.
Rabia does not belong there, neither does Keith Jarret or Kenny Wheeler for example.
I don't know where you live, but all the CD shops I have been to in europ and states carry Rabia! NONE has Monir!
And that fact cannot be dismissed as all shop owners and byers are idiots (you are intitaled to think so, but it does not make it a truth).
Whom I listen to have varried a lot through out the years. It depends of many many factors.
And I have to say that I listen to, and learn from and try to emitate lots of musicians that don't play the oud too.
To me music is music!
I have played, on the oud, people like Keith Jarret, Paco de Lucia, Pat Matheny, Rabia (I include him here since it is his MUSIC I was interrested in,
not his playing ) to mention a few. So it is the MUSIC I am intererested in!
When it comes to oud players, I listen to many, and I have no chance to mention all!
Today for instence, I listend to Alioud from this Forum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLdMQfWWzSs
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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