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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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ARDENT DEBATES SEEM MORE ATTRACTIVE THAN ...
I posted two identical announcements to the Forums.
One of them seems to have ended by reciprocal jokes (has been clicked 751 times so far) while the other seems to continue if Mike does not shut it
down (has been clicked 1315 times)
I wonder if any ardent debates attract peole's interest more than any calmer ones. Of course some of the clicks have been made by the involving
individuals but it is still interesting. 1315-751 = 564 is a significant difference, isn't it?
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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An interesting statistic Faruk. I sympathise with your dilemma.
When I started coming on these forums, one thing that struck me was that, while it was a very friendly place, it lacked a little controversy. Comments
were always enthusiastically complementary - be they on luthiers' new ouds, member's recordings, CD reviews, whatever. I thought, wouldn't it be nice
if every once in a while, people would express different (though respectful) opinions.
I've changed my mind.
While the robust exchange of views is a great thing, I'm not sure internet forums of this sort are conducive to it. What tends to happen I think, is
that the same old debates get recycled again and again, with the same old arguments and views don't really change. What usually happens is that the
belligerent parties come to some sort of an understanding, usually exchange a joke or two (with a generous helping of smiley faces of course) and
waltz off into the sunset together, leaving the same argument to a whole new generation of belligerents in about a year's time. I'm sure you've
noticed a strange sense of deja vu in that debate raging on your thread.
I find the best way to cope is to come on this great resource every now and then, post something if you really feel the urge, and ignore these
controversies. After all, they're only virtual, and if you ignore them, they do go away. Just watch - this thread may also go postal, but I'll not be
back on it.
I appreciate it's trickier for you as some of these arguments might pose threats to your reputation as a luthier and therefore need to be corrected,
but responding to ill-informed rants can be a tricky path!
Sorry to sound a slightly cynical note on this superb forum, but I'm starting to miss some of the good old measured and above all knowledgeable
(unlike me) contributors, who seem to have taken to the long grass, even if an argument every now and then does spice things up.
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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Dear Dave,
I highly appreciate your insight. Your words distilled out of a vast understanding and wisdom. They are very precious.
Please show tolerance to my attitude showing impatience. Yes, "they are only virtual", sure they go away but they stamp some bad signs in the minds of
others.
I think that, today opinions are controlled and manipulated by virtual designings more than that has ever been. I am afraid that all those virtual
things go away in time but conditioned opinions stay.
With my deep respects.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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Hi Faruk... I don't think you have anything to worry about - concerning some people getting conditioned against you --- in fact, all this
bickering, and even the negative stuff simply draws more and more attention to you, and by default you simply become more and more well known - - -
and those that "try" to hurt you are simply helping you, believe it or not, even with nasty comments!
[John Clease said that Monty Python's movie HOLY GRAIL would have just flopped had it not been for the Catholic church banning it. . . . because then
suddenly everyone noticed it and HAD to see it! Ozzy Osborne also admits to the same phenomenon - after biting the head of a DOVE (not a premeditated
act) out of drunkenness and anger at a record company meeting - his fame and sales skyrocketed due to the publicity and NEGATIVE contravercy.]
so you have to be only very happy about all this attention - even if it is seemingly "negative". People attacking you only proves that you are someone
WORTH attacking, and in a stupid and sick say - this helps you very much. That's a weird fact.
Now, on to the business of day to day life. . . . nobody finds it fun to be attacked, even when it is actually good for business. Personally I
think you would be better off simply to not respond at all when this happens. First of all, your work speaks for itself, and secondly, there are
plenty who will come to your defense instantly.
What I do when this occationally happens to me - occationally I get aggressively attacked on the Fretless guitar forum (http://www.unfretted.com)... I used to fight back until as Dave pointed out, I realised that this is totally pointless and only makes matters
worse. What I do, is simply and completely avoid this forum for a period of time when things get hot - I absolutely do not allow myself to
read posts from those particular people who are the known attackers - or I simply avoid that forum entirely....
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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I totally agree with you and Dave, my friend.
BTW, I am sad that you have encountered that loose neck of Ragmakamtar. Take it easy Eddi.
Ta ta ...until they understand and settle down
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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how much I wish your amazing and friendly workshop would be just around the corning right now, to help me set my troubles in order. . . . . but alas
I now permanently carry around with me the wisdom I gained from my time with you, and I am confident I will survive alone now in the big world - even
with primative means.
by the way, my new ragmakamtar design which as you suggested, simply employs an enormous soundboard - and finally gives me a real oud-like sound on
the oud neck. . . . and I am simply using 4 ladder braces so perhaps your brace tuning method will work on it?
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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Hmm.. this sounds to me pretty much like the language crimilnals use in a gangster film 
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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Greg
Administrator
Posts: 926
Registered: 7-22-2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Serene
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Mr Türünz clearly has a better understanding of vernacular English than you.
"Ta-ta" or "Ta Ta", or "Tata" means goodbye. The term is used in many English speaking countries. The Oxford English Dictionary. says this is "a
version of 'goodbye' used playfully by adults" and offers 1837 as the year it came into the language.
I would ask that you choose your words more carefully, as this type of unnecessary provocation will not be tolerated.
Greg Marsh
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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"will not be tolerated" ??? Respectfully I ask: After all this don't you think nature can safely run it's course?
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Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mahoor
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I thought it was "ta-da." 
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ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 458
Registered: 9-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Ta-da is more of an exclamation upon unvailing something new in my experience. While I've only heard it a few times ta-ta is a valid though less than
well known goodbye phrase.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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"ta ta" means "Dad" in Czech  )
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
Member Is Offline
Mood: high
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'ta ta' is the noise a trumpet makes, if played correctly.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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TATA is also a company that makes Camions in India 
...and there is a Czech rock group called the TATA BOYZ
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
Member Is Offline
Mood: high
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i tried to kickstart my moped this morning, but all i got out of it was a miserable 'ta ta', rather than the desired 'tackatackatacka'. hence i had to
ride my pushbike and was half an hour late for work.....
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi everybody,
please calm down ... no need to worry ... the market will heal itself
Let's compare Türünz ouds to Gibson guitars. A long time ago Gibson raised the prices for it's wonderful instruments more and more. And what
happened? Some day the market for high priced guitars got saturated and Gibson introduced lower price models, that are also very good.
And besides that, there are many other brands, that are as good as Gibson.
So ... no need to worry or to get angry or attack anybody ... it's just a matter of time
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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And another thing will happen that we may or may not want to happen with ouds: the Chinese.
I have a vintage Gibson ES335, a Martin D-18 and a Fender Precision bass, all from the 1960s, and they are considered primo and are worth some serious
money. The point is, Turunz oud owners, hang on to your instruments until you are old.
For a project I needed a short scale fretless bass, a five string fretted with steel strings and I wanted a fretless 6 string. By knowing what to
look for and where, I got Chinese Electric basses that met ALL the requirements, including great looks, for about $120 each. In truth they actually
are no worse than my primo vintage instruments.
They even make ancient instruments like viola da gambas. The oud is not a tiny market, the Chinese will apear at some point. We might want to think
about how we will relate to that!
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Alnoud85
Oud Addict
Posts: 28
Registered: 1-31-2010
Location: UK (sheffield)
Member Is Offline
Mood: سماء الانغام
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If you type the name of any well know product in the world in to google followed by the word review you will find all diffrent views, opinions list of
pros, cons and feedbacks which thousands of people view regardless of it being positive or negative.
With all due respect to everyone who commented on the "Ardent debate", It is the place of the market to decide what is reasonable, desirable and
acceptable in regards to any product, not the manufaturer close friends and or family members.
After all this is a oud forum and we were discussing an oud in a polite, proper and respectable manner.
Yassir Alnoud
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Wasn't it a few months ago, that someone here in the forums found the first Chinese ouds on Ebay? I'm not quite shure.
And what about Turkish ouds? Aren't there already cheap factory build models on the market?
PS: Besides these facts, Faruk Türünz is some kind of pioneer with his double soundboards. BUT others will follow. I expect, that the oud will
develop further very soon ... the more popular it gets, the more development will take place. Who knows, if adjustable necks won't become standard one
time or maybe adjustable bridges?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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There is one famous oud maker (not mentioning names) that was approached by a Chinese company who offered to build for him in China, with computerized
machines, all the oud parts. This maker refused.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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But maybe another won't ... some time.
Because the oud's popularity still rises, I expect the market to get devided into mass market and high end market ... maybe traditional too.
Isn't that already the case in Turkey? I'm not shure.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Maybe more people will make their own ouds?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Possible, but who will, when good quality becomes available cheap? Only enthusiasts.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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That'd be us then...
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
Member Is Offline
Mood: high
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when i started my personal oud journey i would have been happy if there would have been a cheap mass-produced made-in-china-oud with a fairly decent
sound quality. that would have safed me looking for a semi-decent sukar for months on end and would have helped me to decide whether i actually wanted
to learn properly.
but that's off-topic i guess, and i seem to remember that there was some sort of threat on this a while back....
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