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jack
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Scale length question
Being new to the oud I have a few questions about scale length, if anyone on this forum has time to educate me.
I have noticed that many Arabic ouds are now built and played with a 58.5 cm scale length, and I'm wondering why this shorter dimension is now often
used? My first and only oud right now has a 62 cm scale length, and I like it, largely for the tension of the strings. Does a 58.5 cm scale length
require Turkish tuning, or alternative Arabic tuning (I'm using CFAdgc)? I'm also wondering if there is a loss in bass with the shorter scale and
hence likely smaller body?
Jack
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Danielo
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Hi Jack,
an welcome to the oud world 
The shorter string length (58.5cm) is used mainly for better playability (it is easier to catch notes high on the fingerboard).
It is perfectly possible to use standard Arabic tuning with a 58.5 cm oud but the string gauges have to be chosen differently, for a given string
tension.
All things being equal a shorter scale oud with a smaller body should give less powerfull basses however there are many other parameters in the
equation (wood choices, bracing,...) so it is perfectly possible to have a 58.5 cm oud with bassy Arabic tone...
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fernandraynaud
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Shorter scale with the same strings and tuning will result in lower tension. It is thus logical to tune it say two half-tones higher, which is exactly
what a Turkish tuning does. Thus the same strings can generally be used in that situation.
The lowest notes will of course be higher. The smaller body also favors higher frequency resonances in the instrument.
But many people tune Turkish ouds to Arabic tunings, and shorter ouds can have surprisingly good bass. In fact it's a puzzling thing: what exactly
makes an oud "Turkish"? But strings have to be optimized for this situation. The advantage is that such ouds are easier to hold.
Also they can fit better in the airline overhead bins, if they are shallower AND narrower 
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Aymara
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Oops ... beware!
I have an 58.5 arabic oud tuned to CFAdgc, but I use D'Addario's turkish string set. This combination gives me a perfect tension in the low to medium
range. I bet, if I would tune this strings on my oud to the Turkish tuning, I would risk damaging bridge and soundboard as with a Turkish tuning on a
long scale oud too.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
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Chris, I think that these are very generic oud strings that can be tuned Arabic on long scale and Turkish on short scale ouds. I believe that what
Jameel says on his site is correct:
D'Addario oud strings are gauged for Turkish ouds, but as with most Turkish sets, they can also be used on Arabic ouds (~
61 cm scale) tuned a step lower.
In other words you should be able to tune your 585mm oud to Turkish on these strings. Here are the tensions I get based on D'Addario's data from
Matthias' web site:
Note String 580mm 610mm Turk 580mm
cc NYL022 2.29 2.54 dd 2.89
gg NYL028 2.24- 2.47- aa 2.63
DD NYL025W 3.91+ 4.32+ EE 4.32++
AA NYL029W 3 .46 3.82 BB 3.93+
FF NYL033W 3.34 3.70 F# 3.75
C NYL041W 2.97 3.28 C# 3.33
That last column shows a 585 mm oud tuned Turkish as shown, C#F#F#BBEEaadd. The + and - indicate where I had to use data from the next point up or
down. Email me if you want to go into details, no point boring others.
What does matter is that the "standard" oud set is something like this, here are some other sets. The Mumtaz ff course is in parentheses, missing
courses are xxx, like the C Bamm course missing from the LaBella OU80A.
(020p) 025p 028p 024w 030w 034w 042w Mari Turkish older
(020p) 026p 032p 024w 029w 033w 040w Mari Arabic older
(020p) 022p 027p 023w 028w 032w 041w Mari Turkish recent
xxx 022p 028p 025w 030w 034w 042w LaBella OU80
(020p) 027p 031p 023w 029w 033w xxx La Bella OU80A
xxx 022p 029p 025w 028w 033w 040w GHS
The point is that there is no big voodoo here, it's all very consistent. Plain nylon is more or less the same from one batch to another, and the wound
strings are basically the same silver-plated copper over nylon core. There's not that much difference from one manufacturer's materials to
the next, so "it's not rocket science", as they say, the weight per unit volume, the length, the gauge, the pitch and the tension determine each other
in well-defined ways. There are different solid or "plain" materials, from Nylgut to various kinds of Nylon, the materials' data work with
the standard equations, it all makes sense, there are no "guitar" or "oud" strings, there are just strings in different materials and gauges. We all
understand these things, but allow me to rehash a few consequences.
For instance, the Oud's 2nd course, tuned to g, and the 4th course, tuned to A, have about the same thickness, 0.029" to 0.030", yet the Plain Nylon
string sounds a g at 196 Hz, and the silvered copper wire wound over Nylon string sounds an A at 110 Hz, almost an octave lower. It's logical. The
heavier wound string allows the string maker to use a thinner string to sound a lower pitch. This is why bass strings use a metal winding over the
nylon. A plain nylon oud string would have to be absurdly thick to be tuned to 110 Hz, so thick it would be hard to play. Coming from the other end,
not changing the thickness, it would have to be so loose to sound the A that it would not be heard. It's all compromises!
Note how the tensions differ, 2.5 K to 3.8 Kg, not because they MUST differ, but because of the thickness that was selected by the factory. If we had
used a 0.025" wound string for the A, it would be as loose as the g string, 2.5 Kg. Yet 2.5 Kg in that position would feel much too "floppy", so based
on experience, a thicker wound string was selected, a 0.029". It seems all of the oud sets we examined follow about the same "curve", with the most
tension on the 3rd and 4th courses.
String technology has changed over the centuries, and Mr Downing's efforts in recreating medieval strings are very important. Today's commonplace
strings are all relatively late innovations.
The harpsichord strings shown below do not use overwinding. They cover 5 octaves, with .006" strings in the treble to .022" in the bass. The heaviest
bass strings are 90% red copper, the mid strings are yellow brass, and the treble strings are the lightest, iron. In addition, the "scale length"
ranges from 3 inches in the treble to 60 inches in the bass.
Quite a different set of limitations. The total tension on an authentic harpsichord is a tiny fraction of that found on a modern piano. A fine
harpsichord is like an oud, light and resonant. In Venice during the Renaissance, Oud players must have rubbed shoulders in the Piazza San Marco with
players of the Lute, the Clavichord and the Harpsichord, and instrument-makers influenced each other. An entire Italian harpsichord, taken out of its
outer case, can be carried under one's arm, weighing barely 8 Kg. When ignorant early 20th century "specialists" tried to re-string old instruments
with piano strings, parts went flying and many fine instruments were ruined.
At the other end of the spectrum, with modern materials, if we want to look at some exotic strings (even more exotic than the AC110s Aymara introduced
me to for acoustic guitar), strings that do NOT have the same properties as average strings, look at these! The cores are a woven jeweler's steel
chain (or "rope"), and the windings are nylon flat-tape for the trebles, and silver-plated copper flat-wire for the basses --THAT's different. These
are Thomastic's S KR116 strings for classical guitar! What they provide is a very low tension (6Kg on Spanish guitar) with extremely long sustain and
no finger-noise. The correct gauge strings from this set could be used on an oud for a different timbre, or just an adventure! I'll be doing the math
-- which ones might fit where on the oud, as long as the math checks out, there is no possibility of exceeding safe limits -- but note that these
strings are more expensive than fishing line.
----------------
Thomastic steel rope guitar flatwounds from KR116 set. The blue stuff is binding at the end of strings. The thin string on the right is a 0.016"
flatwound nylon tape high E string, replacing a plain nylon .028", the silver one of the left is a flatwound silverplate 0.039" low E string,
replacing the typical roundwound 0.043" silvered copper over nylon.
The Thomastik AC110s are so pretty, I had to show them too They are polished
bronze flatwounds, the top two being just bronze-plated steel, starting with a 0.010". Normal tensions on a Western guitar with normal extra light
strings are uneven, ranging from 8 -14 Kg. The AC110 offer a very consistent tension around 7-7.5 Kg.
Harpsichord 8' string set for a Flemish V.
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Aymara
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  |
D'Addario oud strings are gauged for Turkish ouds, but as with most Turkish sets, they can also be used on Arabic ouds (~
61 cm scale) tuned a step lower.
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Yes, you can tune them to arabic tuning on arabic ouds, but remember my thread about these strings from last November. We found out, that some people
with a long scale oud got oud damages caused by these D'Addario strings.
On a short scale oud like mine, this is no problem, but I bet it will be, if I would try a Turkish tuning. Remember, everybody warns not to use a
Turkish tuning on an arabic oud, because of the risk to damage bridge and/or soundboard.
| Quote: | | ..., no point boring others. |
Yep, back to the original topic:
Tony, you told me, that your deep C string has not the desired tension on your Sukar Model 1. I also noticed this flabby C string on other long scale
ouds in some Youtube videos.
Might this problem be a further reason, that the 58.5cm scale is becoming more popular on arabic ouds?
I ask this, because on my short scale oud, the C string's tension is perfect. I know, this question is not logical, because usually the tension on a
long scale oud is higher as on a short scale. But I try to find an explanation for your C string problem, which seems to be a problem only on some
long scale ouds.
A further thought ... maybe many luthiers like the short scale, because it allows the use of Turkish string sets in arabic tuning? Isn't the string
choice better on short scale ouds?
| Quote: | The Thomastik AC110s (7 Kg tension) are so pretty, ...
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That's why I use them on my 12-string guitar since years ... low tension and a brilliant sound as with higher tension roundwound strings. I wish their
oud strings would be as good as this set ... too bad it isn't.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jazzchiss
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara | | On a short scale oud like mine, this is no problem, but I bet it will be, if I would try a Turkish tuning. Remember, everybody warns not to use a
Turkish tuning on an arabic oud, because of the risk to damage bridge and/or soundboard. |
I use MusicCaravan turkish strings in my 58.5 scale Ghadban's oud and Nazih didn't warn me not to use turkish tuning. For me the tension is perfect in
D (and I love low tension).
In fact, arab ouds are quite more robust than turkish ones, aren't they? Why a 58.5 arab oud should have any problem using turkish tuning?
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fernandraynaud
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I should clarify on the C string. If you look at the tensions for the typical "generic oud" set, you see that there are two areas of lowest tension:
the top 2 courses, which break away from the wound strings, and could easily be higher tension, and the bottom Bamm. It's really a matter of taste.
3.28 Kg is not a lot of tension, but it's perfectly usable. You like it at 2.97 Kg. No problem. I couldn't tell the difference. It's not really "some
ouds", it's more like "some players". After going through these figures, I don't believe everything I hear about this or that brand causing this or
that.
I'm curious what the old guard thinks of all this, it may be obvious, but I sure wish they would share their insights. Maybe Lute strings etc have
some special properties we should know about.
My Model 1 Sukar came with a specific set (020p 023p 032p 025w 033w 051w), with a very light 1st course and a very fat 6th course . I put on a D.Mari
set and it was fine, 0.042" or 0.041" on the bottom, but I missed the monster bass. So I dug the old un-silverplated copper .051" out from the
leftovers box, and I like it! It feels and extrapolates to something like 4.8 Kg, or more. It's hard to find .050" strings in any set for any
instrument but bass, and coming from the e-bass, I know there's a magic reason word here: COST. If Sukar put that on his oud, I'm not too worried
putting it back on. I like that word ... BAMMMM!
I don't see how any 585 mm oud would have trouble with Turkish tuning. Plus the J95 strings are meant for Turkish tuning on a 585 mm oud. I don't
think Arabic ouds are more resistant, it seems that Turkish ouds are more carefully finished. Maybe Chris just got used to a low tension, and there's
no danger in THAT, so peace be with him.
p.s. Good thing .050" is the fattest we might need. I almost die laughing when I see the price of the Thomastik Single 0.136" bottom B string (for a 5
or 6 string bass):
TOI_JF34136 Thomastik-Infeld Nickel Flat Wound Roundcore Long Scale .136, JF34136 $45.86
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Aymara
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Because a higher tuning results in a higher tension, which might be too high ... or is this only a problem on long scale ouds?
In Marina's Oud Book you'll find the following warning on page 8:
| Quote: | Although you may tune your Turkish oud as an Arabic one, never tune an Arabic oud in Turkish tuning, as the excess tension on the strings is not good
for the instrument.
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Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Aymara
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | I almost die laughing when I see the price of the Thomastik Single 0.136" bottom B string (for a 5 or 6 string bass):
TOI_JF34136 Thomastik-Infeld Nickel Flat Wound Roundcore Long Scale .136, JF34136 $45.86
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What? In Germany I pay around 65 Euros for the complete 5-string Jazz flatwound set from Thomastik. So 45$ for the single B-string is unbelievable ...
you should order your strings in Germany 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
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Chris, Marina means don't take a (long scale) Arabic oud with a set of regular oud strings (suitable for Turkish tuning on a short scale and Arabic
tuning on a long scale), and tune the set up a whole step from base Arabic tuning. That's not a good idea, in the long run especially.
But if you have a short scale oud with Standard Arabic/Turkish strings and it's tuned (down) to Arabic, yes you can tune it ("back up") to Turkish,
that's what it "should have been" all along.
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fernandraynaud
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Want to hear something funny?
http://www.music123.com/Thomastik-JF346-Flatwound-Regular-Scale-6-S...
http://www.amazon.com/Thomastik-JF346-Flatwound-Regular-6-String/dp...
This set was $149 the other day ... I wrote a review on Amazon in which I mocked their pricing, and bingo they came down to $99. Who knows?
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Aymara
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I prefer 55 Euros for the 6-string set
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
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are those really the same set? Different packaging but ...
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Aymara
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Shure ... it's JF346.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Manil
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I saw on Jameel site that tuning a full step higher (C to D) will add 0.8 kgs in tension, it's the main reason you don't tune turkish on arabic oud,
the tension on most strings will exceed 4 kgs which is too high for a oud, some luthier won't mind, some will, it's always a personal feeling with the
string tensio and tuning but be aware of tension on the oud.
I saw on this forum that some oud makers are even making 57cm string length for playability, some virtuose players are playing on 57cm string length
and 7 courses which give them very tight distances between notes and strings.
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MatthewW
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Hi Jack, welcome to the forum, a great place for finding out all you can on the oud and and then some. I think a lot of things like oud scale and
strings are down to personal choice and tastes and what works best for you. As far as a shorter scale oud having less bass response than a longer
scale oud, it really all depends on the quality of the construction and what woods are used in ANY oud, a shorter scale dosen't have to mean less
bass. I had a 61 cm oud for a while, then I went to a 58.5 and for me it felt a lot more comfortable; the notes were easier to get to on the
fingerboard and with less stretch of the fingers. Perhaps the next guy door prefers a 61 or 62 cm scale oud and loves it - whatever works for you is
how I look at it. Try to play a few different scale ouds if you can and go for what is most comfy in your hands. What you should avoid regarding
strings is not so much the brand ( you'll find which strings you like as you go along) but more importantly putting the wrong gauge strings on your
oud; ie strings gauged for lower tunings tuned up to higher tunings than recommended, this may cause stress on the oud. Have fun and enjoy the ride-
regards, MW
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fernandraynaud
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Manil, like MatthewW says, it's messy to think of strings (or ouds) by slogans, go by gauges and measurements. Even the words Turkish and Arabic are
labels that add confusion. We need to be more precise. What we should say is short scale 585 mm and long scale 615 mm, and there are other lengths
possible.
Tunings also can be confused unless we are very specific. In listing a tuning, we use lower case (small) letters to indicate treble plain nylon
strings, and upper case (capital) letters for wound strings. This way it's suggestive of which is the treble end. A single string course gets a single
letter, double courses get two. The bottom single C string on an Arabic tuning is shown at a singe upper case C. The phrase "From bass to treble" or
similar, following a tuning list, is tedious but precise, as it's imaginable to use all wound strings, and then how would you tell which is the treble
end ;-)
So, to be precise, it's not "tuning an Arabic oud to Turkish" that's bad. The reason I'm going into the details is because many people are unsure, and
get locked-in to certain brands, or make mistakes. A more accurate and quite simple story is:
The generic oud string set (as defined in messages above, like a D.Mari or D'Addario J95 or GHS or LaBella OU80) works well for a short
scale (585 mm) oud (often called a "Turkish oud"), tuned to D or common Turkish tuning, i.e. C#F#F#BBEEaadd. If this same oud, with the
same strings, is tuned (down) to common Arabic C tuning, CFFAADDggcc, the tension will be lower, and obviously safe.
This same generic oud string set (as defined above) also works fine for a long scale (615 mm) oud tuned to C or common Arabic tuning,
i.e. CFFAADDggcc. In fact the tensions will then be almost identical to the short scale oud tuned to a D or common Turkish tuning. That's why there's
only one oud string set in many brands. Only the DD course is a little over 4 Kg. But pulling this same long scale oud, with the same strings, up
to a common Turkish D tuning is too high a tension for most ouds, especially on courses 3,4 and 5. The 3rd course EE in that situation is close to
5 Kg.
The last column has been added in the table below to show the tensions on a long scale oud tuned to "Turkish" D tuning. The increase from Arabic
tuning averages half a kilo per string, or 55 kg more for 11 strings. I'm not sure where Jameel gets the 0.8 Kg, but it's not that different
anyway.
Note String 580m 610mm Turk 580mm 610mm
cc NYL022 2.29 2.54 dd 2.89 3.29
gg NYL028 2.24- 2.47- aa 2.63 2.90
DD NYL025W 3.91+ 4.32+ EE 4.32++ 4.78++
AA NYL029W 3 .46 3.82 BB 3.93+ 4.34+
FF NYL033W 3.34 3.70 F# 3.75 4.15
C NYL041W 2.97 3.28 C# 3.33 3.68
I'm sorry the forum software reformats the table, can't retain columns. The figures are a little off. The data from Matthias' site is missing say d or
e tuning with a 0.025" wound string, I have not recalculated it, so I use the next gauge down and mark it ++. And finally I am using Matthias' data
for 580 mm scale for a 585 mm oud, and 610 mm scale for a 615 mm oud. When I have time, I'll recalc all of this based on the equations, but for now
these are usable enough.
So what about that "modern high tuning?" For an ff course on an 'Arabic' oud, a 0.020" plain nylon is generally added to the generic string set for
the highest course. If the oud has 6 courses, the bottom C string envelope is set aside. If it has 7 courses, all 7 courses is used. The tensions on
such an ff course are 3.37 for a short scale and 3.73 Kg for a long scale. Tuning this ff course up to Turkish gg will not endanger anything in either
case. But what you cannot do is "slide the set up" to where a 0.022" becomes ff, a 0.028" gets to be cc, a wound 0.025"W becomes gg, which is just
about when you might notice the bridge and nut making Krunky sounds. If you experiment with strings, get a little caliper or micrometer, it's cheaper
than a new oud and years of grief-counseling.
Shorter scale ouds probably have a bright future, as the full sized Arabic oud is a bit monstrous. There are ways to give a smaller oud more bass, but
it's a little like loudspeakers, nothing like that 15" woofer ...
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Manil
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fernand....
Will let you answer next time since you have the right words ;-)
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rojaros
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
Oops ... beware!
I have an 58.5 arabic oud tuned to CFAdgc, but I use D'Addario's turkish string set. This combination gives me a perfect tension in the low to medium
range. I bet, if I would tune this strings on my oud to the Turkish tuning, I would risk damaging bridge and soundboard as with a Turkish tuning on a
long scale oud too. |
Hello, I have my turkish oud (58,5) equipped with D'Addario set and even in D I wouldn't say it's anything close to hard tension (maybe the third
course a bit) I don't see any risk of damaging the sound board or bridge, it's perfectly stable. I even had it tuned two half steps higher and it was
kind of tight but OK, but I didn't like the sound.
best wishes
Robert
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Aymara
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Thanks for the hint, Robert!
| Quote: Originally posted by rojaros |
I have my turkish oud (58,5) equipped with D'Addario set and even in D I wouldn't say it's anything close to hard tension (maybe the third course a
bit) I don't see any risk of damaging the sound board or bridge ... |
The question is, will it be the same on a short scale Arabic oud? Theoretically I think, yes, but how about soundboard, braces and bridge design ...
are they the same on Turkish and Arabic ouds?
I would never use such a tuning, but I'm nevertheless interested.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jack
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thanks
Thanks all for your time and thoughts.
Much appreciated from a neophyte.
Jack
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Brian Prunka
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My pet theory about the shorter scale on modern ouds is this:
It seems many oud players used to often tune their oud approximately a half step or whole step lower than "G", and tuning wasn't as standardized as it
is today. Now that almost everyone tunes to concert (A=440) G, oud makers have started shortening the scale somewhat to mimic the tension that longer
scale ouds would have in a lower tuning.
I have absolutely no evidence for the above assertion, but it seems to have some truthiness to it.
or not.
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Aymara
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Mmh, I'm not shure, if I understood correctly ... I thought the most common arab tuning is CFFAAddggcc besides the Iraqui tuning FAAddggccff??? So
what do you mean with tuning to G?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Brian Prunka
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The reference pitch is G on the 2nd course. The way that Western musicians in an orchestra tune to "A", Arab musicians tune to "G", regardless of the
instrument.
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