| Pages:
1
2 |
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Trying PVF strings. Tensions & gauges. PVF Fishline? Who's using which?
PVF. Have you tried fluorocarbon strings?
I just got Musicaravan's PVF treble set. From calculations I expected the 0.54 mm thick cc course to give me a quite stiff 4.4 Kg, and sure enough, I
got it. That's too much. They sound OK, but are hard on the fingers and feel really tight. The gg course is OK, 0.65 mm thick, around 3.5 Kg.
These strings seem to be "stretching out" MUCH faster than nylon. I expect them to be usable the very next day.
The average oud's large difference in timbre between the wound DD 3rd course and the plain nylon gg 2nd course has always bothered me. With a horn
risha, these PVF strings sound just brighter enough to blend the treble courses with the wound basses much better. I expected them to
be brighter yet, and it's nice that it's a moderate and not an extreme change. We aren't exactly "pushing" them at oud tensions.
With a black Acetal (Delrin) risha, the sound is different, brighter, more metallic, especially with higher tension. If you like an old fashioned
timbre, when using PVF, hard plastic is not advised, a softer risha is better.
I think I'm sold. If they don't "delaminate". Next I'm getting some polyfilament PVF fishline in 25 meter reels. These use an inner and outer resin
layer, a little like a wound string, I can't imagine them falling apart.
I think that more practical gauges than the Musicaravan gauges I received are:
For the top course tuned cc: 0.47 mm (0.018") PVF giving (respectively) 3.3, 3.1 and 2.9 Kg on 615, 600 and 585 mm scale ouds. And
For the second course tuned gg: 0.62 mm (0.024") PVF giving 3.2, 3.1 and 2.9 kg on 615, 600 and 585 scale ouds.
For an ff "course 0", the 0.37 mm (0.015") PVF is usable, giving 3.6, 3.5 and 3.3 kg on 615, 600 and 585 mm ouds.
For Turkish tuning on a 585 mm scale, I calculate 3.7 Kg for the dd top course using the above 0.47mm PVF, and 3.7 kg for the second aa course using
the 0.62 mm PVF. To get down to 2.9 - 3.1 Kg in Turkish tuning on a 585 mm scale, you can use 0.41 mm and 0.57 mm PVF instead.
Who is using various PVF mono and polyfilament fish lines at this time on their ouds?
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
I just found a string vendor who sells high quality lute strings, silver-plated copper on nylon filament basses, in spools. One interesting claim is
that they wind them under high tension, so the strings don't need to stretch. This may (or may not) turn out to be very cost-effective. He will be
sending me samples for an oud set with PVF trebles to my spec, and I will report.
|
|
|
freya
Oud Junkie
Posts: 275
Registered: 2-8-2004
Location: Asheville NC
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy in the mountains of WNC
|
|
Been using Seaguar Premier for several years now and would never switch back to nylon:
Quicker settle
Non-hydroscopic
Negligible temperature coefficient
Resists wear (good for tarpon and snook - catch and release of course)
Subjectively lively tone
Good intonation (I've had maybe one non-uniform string out of the 20 or 30 pairs I've used)
Can be bought in bulk
I use 0.52mm and 0.66mm for the C and G respectively in Arabic tuning (tension looked reasonable in Arto's calculator). In any case you can read what
one classical player concluded at:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9942&pa...
Harry
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
I am aware of that quote. Good to hear your experience! I have 0.546 mm on my cc that came from Musicaravan. I used PVF's published 1800 kg/cubic
meter for density, and in string calculator got 4.4 kg. And indeed they feel very stiff. If you have Seaguar Premier Leader in 0.52mm, the tension
should be 4 kg at 615 mm, 3.8 kg at 600 mm and 3.6 kg at 585 mm, OR that material must not weigh 1800 kg/cubic meter. What scale length do you have?
How does that cc course feel in tension compared to what nylon or wound strings? Maybe the two resin inner-outer construction ends up being lighter?
Or do you personally like stiff trebles? What do you think is going on here?
|
|
|
rojaros
Oud Junkie
Posts: 581
Registered: 7-9-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm using Seaguar fluorocarbon premier leader on guitar and would not go back to any other brand of string whatsoever for trebles.
I tried 0.41 on my oud for f', but it's too tight.
But soundwise I think that is the best material that can be bought at the moment. Melton Tackle in Annaheim CA is a good source, they seem to have all
gauges that are available. (Unfortunately several intermediate gauges vanished from the market).
best wishes
Robert
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Yes, it makes sense, for ff a 0.41mm PVF string would give you 4.04, 4.25 and 4.47 Kg at 585, 600 and 615 mm scale length.
They sell a 0.37mm Premier Leader, that would work better for ff, giving 3.3, 3.5, 3.6 Kg on 585, 600 and 615 mm scales.
I'm still curious about Freya/Harry's use of 0.52 mm on the cc course, for 0.52mm, the tension works out to be 4 kg at 615 mm, 3.8 kg at 600 mm and
3.6 kg at 585 mm, so unless he has a short scale, I would think he'd find it a bit tight.
For instance, the 4.4 kg I get on my 615 mm oud's cc course (using Musicaravan's 0.54mm) is tolerable but at the top end of tolerable.
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Thomastik KR116
The most "exotic" strings I've ever had. These are installed on a Spanish guitar at the moment, but I tried a couple on a Sukar 615 mm scale oud. The
sound was so different that I decided against getting two sets and stringing an oud with them, at the moment, but if someone is looking for a new
sound, these are it. One of these days, I'll give it a try.
The trebles are flatwound nylon on a "rope" core, the basses are flatwound silvered copper on rope. They look and feel Rolls Royce. For instance the
0.039" bass string is so flexible, it's like spaghetti al dente. The tensions work out to 2.8 to 3.4 kg, with the 0.016" c course a bit over 4 kg,
lighter than 0.54" PVF.
It's a bright sound, on a Spanish guitar. The flatwound nylons sound a lot like PVF, but with amazing sustain. So smooth! You can slide more silently
on the basses than on normal oud strings. There is no change in timbre at the Bass-Treble break. The strings don't even stretch a hair after you put
them on; they stay in tune right away! Amazing quality and attention to detail all around.
On the oud, the basses I tried gave a zingier sound than the typical oud strings. I never had a course doubled, it might sound divine, or it might
just sound odd.
In any case, there is no danger, even the tightest 4.1Kg for the cc on a long scale is within reason. The ball ends can be worked into the loop, or
cut off, but careful, the bass strings are not overly long.
These sets sell for $18 at the moment from JustStrings.com, so two sets would add up into the "lute strings" price tag, not cheap, but not impossible.
|
|
|
freya
Oud Junkie
Posts: 275
Registered: 2-8-2004
Location: Asheville NC
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy in the mountains of WNC
|
|
It's difficult to know what the exact molecular weight of a given string is, especially if it's co-extruded the way the Seguars are (I think), so the
string calculator may be approximate. Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the diameter of the string can affect the perceived tension - the PVFs
are considerably thinner and that may come into play. In any case, I don't perceive much difference between the Seguars at the diameter noted, the
MusicCaravans that I was using before but found too expensive and the nylons that come with the Pyramid Oranges that I usually string up before
putting the PVFs on just to check playability.
As far as gauge availability goes, some serious fishing friends of mine use other brands (more expensive) of Japanese PVF leader (for fishing not
playing that is). If it turns out that specific gauges of Seguar Premier become hard to get, I may try experimenting with some other brands but right
now I've got lots of reels of lots of gauges...
Harry
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
It's not surprising the Seaguar 0.52 tuned cc feels like Musicaravan's 0.545, we don't need to invoke imprecision. Since 0.545 feels tight to me, and
that matches the calculated 4.4 kg, I'm going to try the 0.47mm. Thanks, Harry!
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
They remind me of Elixir Nanoweb strings for guitar and bass, which have a rubber like coating.
Let us know, if you find good flatwound strings for the oud ... I would be highly interested.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Chris, if you can get two KR116 sets at a decent price, that will work. Cheaper than some custom sets you were looking at.
On your 585 mm oud if tuned Arabic the tensions will be:
c 3.83kg, g 3.36kg, d 2.88kg, a 2.94kg, f 3.36kg, c 3.38kg.
Not all that different from your D'Addario J95 set, but probably more even, and a hair lighter. The only issue is if you will like the tone, which is
brighter and "richer" than typical oud strings. But they are flat wound, feel wonderful, like one if those 3D woven gold chains that drape around your
fingers, and are a pleasure even to handle. There is no sudden change in tone on any course, and no stretching out of tune. You and I both know nobody
makes strings like Thomastik. It's just a question of whether you or I will try them on the oud first.
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The price would be nearly the same.
| Quote: | | You and I both know nobody makes strings like Thomastik. |
Yep ... Thomastik is also the perfect choice for Godin's Glissentar, but here the Classic S set is needed twice. It's still guitar tuning,
but they are flatwound and as I read in a guitar forum they even sound better than Godin's own set.
The Godin A11 with flatwound strings in oud tuning would be perfect ... a real competitor to the oud itself.
BTW ... my instrument dealer told me, that the Glissentar is a top seller amongst young Turkish people in my region. Maybe I should import high
quality Turkish ouds to Germany 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Glissentar, schmissentar! Try a double Classic S (KR116) set on your 585 mm oud! The tensions work out great for standard Arabic tuning. You can get
them cheaper in Germany than I can in the US.
When I say they are brighter than normal oud strings, that's not a very good description. The bass string sounds brighter, richer, but the trebles
sound velvety, yet with a long sustain, but not like Western guitar strings. They might sound fantastic on the oud, or weird, hard to know without
trying them.
The tensions that Thomastik lists for the KR116 set on a 650 mm scale guitar with guitar tuning are about double, around 6-7 Kg.
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Oops, didn't notice, that Classic S = KR116.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Oh, BTW, here is a simple way to estimate what a given string, taken from a guitar, will feel like on the oud.
The scale of a standard guitar is 650 mm. The first fret is around 615 mm. The second fret is around 581 mm. If you put a capo (or just fingers) at
the first fret, and tune the guitar down to sound c g d a f c, you will feel what the tensions will be on a 615 mm scale oud tuned Arabic (they will
be about half). This also gives you some idea of what these strings will sound like at reduced tension.
To simulate a short scale oud place the capo at the second fret and tune Turkish or Arabic, depending on how you will tune the oud.
Here we see how the Turkish tuning on a short scale is indeed a bit tighter than a long scale tuned Arabic, the difference between e.g. the top string
being left as is (and sounding C# one fret up), vs. pulling it up to Turkish D, right?
The surprising things is that doubling up classical guitar sets works out quite well, without even having to pick and choose singles! A rough
guideline is that strings that don't exceed around 7 kg tension on the guitar can be used on the oud, and of course steel strings with greater tension
cannot.
There are even classical guitar sets with a wound string for the third course. The Thomastik KR116 set uses hybrid flatwounds throughout and there is
no simple break between the basses and trebles.
My interest in this matter is that once we know this, we have a wider range of strings and timbres to choose from, and people who can't get oud sets
locally, or who break a string while on tour in Patagonia, are not "dead in the water".
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  |
My interest in this matter is that once we know this, we have a wider range of strings and timbres to choose from, and people who can't get oud sets
locally, or who break a string while on tour in Patagonia, are not "dead in the water". |
Yes, that's definitely worth it, especially the later.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
I didn't expect this, but the PVF I got from Musicaravan is the stretchiest material ever. Since PVF doesn't absorb water like Nylon, I was rather
counting on the opposite. It's a real nuisance; over a week and it's still stretching, like 50-75 cents overnight. Yes, I did stretch them side to
side. Nylons would have settled down by now. Meanwhile all the strings in the KR116 set on the Spanish guitar are rock stable.
How does the Seaguar Premium Leader behave in that respect?
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Seaguar Premier Leader
ok. The Seaguar Premier Leader arrived Fedex Ground.
The gauges are correct and the tensions feel like what I had calculated, which is to say a nice even 3.0-3.3 Kg on the cc and gg courses, depending on
scale, good match for the Daniel Mari basses. I installed them on a 615 mm scale oud. They sound bright and live. Big range of timbres with different
rishas and pluck points. Can't tell if they are the same material as what Musicaravan offers.
I have not tried the ff "mumtaz" course yet, but I rather expect them to work. We want a slightly higher tension on the ff strings, and the 0.37 mm
gauge does that. I think Kuerschner has trouble getting 0.37 mm PVF as he only offers Nylon for the ff course, Musicaravan too.
If you want to calculate tensions in Arto's String Calculator, the density of this stuff is around 1800 Kg/ cubic meter.
Seaguar Fluoro Premier Leader
The gauges (with tensions on 615, 600 and 585 mm scale) are:
18 lb 0.015" 0.37 mm for course 0 (ff) (3.6, 3.5 and 3.3 kg)
28 lb 0.018" 0.47 mm for course 1 (cc) (3.3, 3.1 and 3.0 Kg)
45 lb 0.024" 0.62 mm for course 2 (gg) (3.2, 3.1 and 2.9 kg)
Prices vary, but my total order with shipping and tax for the 3 25 yard rolls as above was under $50. At normal prices the standard cc and gg treble
courses work out to about $3.60 for the 2 pairs in 40" length, or $4.70 for 3 treble pairs for ff tuning.
I add $8.00 for a set of Daniel Mari basses (and set aside the nylon trebles). Mari Arabic and Turkish sets are identical. The gauges are .022p .028p
.024w .030w .035w 041w. Their Nylon ff course is .020p and costs $0.75.
The complete sets then come to:
Mari Arabic Long set with Nylon trebles $7.99
Mari Arabic Long set with Nylon trebles and Nylon ff course $8.74
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles $11.59
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles and Nylon ff course $12.24
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles and PVF ff course $12.69
$11.59 for a PVF set is not bad, beats 30 Euros .
The Melton part numbers are:
838300 SEAGUAR FLURO PREMIER-18FP25
838302 SEAGUAR FLURO PREMIER-28FP25
838304 SEAGUAR FLURO PREMIER-45FP25
This looks like very solid stuff, I don't expect "delamination" or other problems. I'll post after I've played them a while.
A useful trick for PVF is to rub the last 2 inches of both ends on violin bow rosin before stringing. PVF is very slippery, and this stops slippage on
both the bridge loops and the tuning pin, more effective than melting the tips, which hardly does anything.
|
|
|
maker
Oud Addict
Posts: 43
Registered: 7-9-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | ok. The Seaguar Premier Leader arrived Fedex Ground.
The gauges are correct and the tensions feel like what I had calculated, which is to say a nice even 3.0-3.3 Kg on the cc and gg courses, depending on
scale, good match for the Daniel Mari basses. I installed them on a 615 mm scale oud. They sound bright and live. Big range of timbres with different
rishas and pluck points. Can't tell if they are the same material as what Musicaravan offers.
I have not tried the ff "mumtaz" course yet, but I rather expect them to work. We want a slightly higher tension on the ff strings, and the 0.37 mm
gauge does that. I think Kuerschner has trouble getting 0.37 mm PVF as he only offers Nylon for the ff course, Musicaravan too.
If you want to calculate tensions in Arto's String Calculator, the density of this stuff is around 1800 Kg/ cubic meter.
Seaguar Fluoro Premier Leader
The gauges (with tensions on 615, 600 and 585 mm scale) are:
18 lb 0.015" 0.37 mm for course 0 (ff) (3.6, 3.5 and 3.3 kg)
28 lb 0.018" 0.47 mm for course 1 (cc) (3.3, 3.1 and 3.0 Kg)
45 lb 0.024" 0.62 mm for course 2 (gg) (3.2, 3.1 and 2.9 kg)
Prices vary, but my total order with shipping and tax for the 3 25 yard rolls as above was under $50. At normal prices the standard cc and gg treble
courses work out to about $3.60 for the 2 pairs in 40" length, or $4.70 for 3 treble pairs for ff tuning.
I add $8.00 for a set of Daniel Mari basses (and set aside the nylon trebles). Mari Arabic and Turkish sets are identical. The gauges are .022p .028p
.024w .030w .035w 041w. Their Nylon ff course is .020p and costs $0.75.
The complete sets then come to:
Mari Arabic Long set with Nylon trebles $7.99
Mari Arabic Long set with Nylon trebles and Nylon ff course $8.74
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles $11.59
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles and Nylon ff course $12.24
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles and PVF ff course $12.69
$11.59 for a PVF set is not bad, beats 30 Euros .
The Melton part numbers are:
838300 SEAGUAR FLURO PREMIER-18FP25
838302 SEAGUAR FLURO PREMIER-28FP25
838304 SEAGUAR FLURO PREMIER-45FP25
This looks like very solid stuff, I don't expect "delamination" or other problems. I'll post after I've played them a while.
A useful trick for PVF is to rub the last 2 inches of both ends on violin bow rosin before stringing. PVF is very slippery, and this stops slippage on
both the bridge loops and the tuning pin, more effective than melting the tips, which hardly does anything.
|
Where can I buy these strings Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles and PVF ff course
ahmad
oud maker
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
You cannot buy sets with PVF (yet). I'm working on it
For now have to add the PVF yourself. I was showing what such sets might cost if you buy Seaguar Premier in 25 meter rolls. But you can buy the base
Mari set with nylon trebles and nylon ff course at:
http://www.ostriemusicsupplies.com/marioud-ar.htm
Incidentally, the Seaguar strings are holding up very well. They are still stretching, 20 cents or so overnight, so not too bad. They sound and feel
great.
|
|
|
maker
Oud Addict
Posts: 43
Registered: 7-9-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
from ware you got this string PVF
ahmad
oud maker
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
It is called Seaguar Premier Leader and is sold by fisherman supply stores like Melton's tackle in Anaheim California. They still have the right
gauges on sale!
http://www.meltontackle.com/products/seaguar-fluoro-premier-fluoroc...
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
It's been a week with the PVF trebles. They are still settling a bit overnight, like 5-10 cents, but with less reaction to humidity, NET they drift
less than nylons. No sign of "delamination".
I understand that on some ouds some players may find them too bright. That has been reported on classical guitar as well: some people just prefer the
more muted nylon. Nylon sounds dead to me, but PVF can be "zingy". This is pretty subjective stuff, on different days the same oud & material
sounds surprisingly different. I too have noticed this "magic".
A heavier gauge than 0.47 mm for the cc course seems to sounds less metallic. But the 0.546 that Musicaravan provides has a tension over 4 kg. The
logical gauge to try if 0.47 mm seems too light or too bright would be the 0.52 mm, the 0.020" 35 lb Seaguar Premier 35FP25. It is what Freya is
using.
There's a strange thing going on with Seaguar Premier Leader gauges, where they are changing the "pound test" ratings, making it hard to know what is
what. It might also be that the 0.52mm gauge will no longer be available. But nobody said the "Premier Leader" is the only usable PVF for oud strings,
there are other Seaguar leaders, some also made with "double extrusion", and cheaper. And we don't even know if the "double extrusion" is desirable.
I'm supposed to talk to the chemical engineer tomorrow, and will post the findings.
I wonder if using nylon for one string and PVF for the other is a useful option.
There is a product called Cork Life from Birkenstock, used for preserving cork sandal inner soles.
http://www.birkenstockexpress.com/Products/Accessories/hero.cfm/cat...
This latex-containing stuff has been mentioned as a way to tone down an overly bright wound string on harpsichords. A one inch length of the sounding
string at the bridge end is painted with Cork Life and left to dry for 20 minutes. It makes sense that a latex like this could mute some upper
harmonics on any string. Perhaps a contact cement would do the same?
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Isn't it similar to the coated guitar and bass strings, e.g. from Elixir or Thomastik?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
No, the idea with the latex is to tune/optimize the timbre, say if you want just a tiny bit more muted. A short length of the string is treated to
dampen it lightly. Ideally this would be reversible. I have never tried it yet. Maybe it only works on wound strings?
The coated strings, like Elixirs, are designed to extend the useful life of bright strings like wound bronze, by shielding the entire string from
finger oils and debris.
Except on very zingy days, when even nylons sound bright, I like the PVF strings just the way they are. On a 615 mm oud, using Seaguar Premier, the gg
course is perfect at 0.62 mm, it would also work on shorter scale, either Arabic or Turkish tuned. For the cc course the 0.47 mm is a hair light, and
this translates to "maybe a bit metallic". Especially on a shorter scale, I'd go with a 0.52 mm for the cc without question.
The ideal PVF material and gauge is open to experiment. These are not prohibitively expensive, $8-$25 for 25 meters, more people should experiment,
we can surely find an inexpensive ideal material in bulk. There are even 100 meter rolls, once you're sure, and you have a big family, too many ouds,
and lots of friends
In the Seaguar leader alone, there are 3 different types, that differ in details of extrusion and resins used. It happens that 0.52 will no longer be
available in Premier, but the Blue is very similar, also 2 resin, and the Red is cheaper, single resin. I hope to know more soon. I found a fishing
shop (Bay Tackle) where they KNOW people use this stuff on ouds! Another research project, Sigh!
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
