smast
Oud Addict
Posts: 28
Registered: 8-1-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
Tuning issues with a new Moroccan Oud
Hello all, I'm new here, and to the Oud world. I've had a look to see if any previous posts answer my question but they don't seem to... I'd be
grateful for any advice I could get, please.
I've been a guitar and violin player for a long time and just before a trip to Marrakech I did a little research on where to buy a beginner's Oud in
the city. I've returned with one and I've found evidence on the net that others think it's a reasonable working beginner's Oud and not a decorative
one! I tried to tune the Oud to D GG AA DD gg cc. This seemed to be mostly ok but the strings kept slipping on the tuning pegs of the bass strings. I
moved the pegs to tune up and then if I was lucky, a few moments later the string would jump up a little! I noticed that the GG strings were buzzing a
little when 'fretted' so I found information on another oud tuning (not that much different), that involved tuning the GG up to AA and the AA up to
BB. This mostly solved the buzzing on what were previously the GG strings. However, the AA strings, on tuning them up to BB, promptly both broke!
1) Why did my strings break? Could it be that they are very old or the big change in temperature/relative humidity? It doesn't seem like that big a
shift in tuning to me and it's concerned me a little!
2) Why might the strings be 'slipping' on the tuning pegs like this?
3) Should I expect any buzz on the lower, wound strings when playing notes with my fingers (it's fine when it's an open string).
I don't think I'd have made any grave errors like tuning at the wrong octave or anything...
Any help would be much appreciated - thanks!
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi,
welcome to the forums!
I think it was a combination of two problems ... low quality strings, which most new ouds ship with, and second a too high tuning. Most string sets
are designed for the standard arabic tuning CFFAAddggcc.
I would recommend buying good strings first, maybe a Pyramid set, which are most easy to buy and are of good quality.
| Quote: | | Why might the strings be 'slipping' on the tuning pegs like this? |
Did the peg itself slip? If yes, buy some violin soap, which you put on the peg (only very little), where it has contact with the pegbox. Above the
soap draw a thin line with chalk ... the same white chalk as used in schools.
If it was not the peg itself, which slipped, but the string on the peg, it might have been a matter of wrong stringing.
Regarding basic information about stringing and tuning visit the Oud Cafe.
| Quote: | | Should I expect any buzz on the lower, wound strings when playing notes with my fingers ... |
Usually NO ... maybe the string's action is too low? Look at the area, where the neck joins the body ... how many millimeters is the distance between
strings and fingerboard at this place?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
smast
Oud Addict
Posts: 28
Registered: 8-1-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks for your help! And for the Oud Cafe link - that looks very useful.
From what you've said, it sounds as though a couple of strings may have not been strung so well as it was the actual string that was slipping. The
pegs slipped a little but not much - probably no more than a violin might, at times. I think I'll get a decent set of strings and see what happens.
The low string, when tuned to C, is 3-4mm from the fingerboard where the neck joins the body.
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Then buzzing is not a matter of too low action ... maybe it was just a matter of bad strings?
I think trying good strings is the first thing to do. Maybe everything will be fine then, if the stringing is done correctly.
Let us know, how it goes on.
PS: Daniel Mari strings are liked by many people in the forums ... just try the forum's search function.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Welcome to our little paradise, Smast,
Here's the ideal way for the first stringing. First measure the string length between nut and bridge. You need to know this. If you live in the US
order a set or two of Daniel Mari long Arabic strings. When you take off the old strings go through the pegs and number them in pencil on the end.
Study each one, how it seats, if it makes contact on both walls of the pegbox. Do what you can with what tools you have to get a good seating. Rub a
little very dry old plain soap on the contact lines, then a line of chalk. Soap helps the peg glide, but chalk is what lets it stop and hold.
Experiment before putting on the new strings. Clean off the stuff and start over as needed. If the pegs are uneven and can't be made to work well, you
must decide if you will live with it, which is not THAT bad, or you have to spend money on a reamer, a peg shaver, and probably a set of rosewood
viola pegs. Total cost if you shop well, under $100. If you can tolerate the pegs, put on your strings. Lube the wound strings right at the nut and
the nut with old white soap. Rub 2" at both ends of the strings on a violin rosin cake so the bridge loops and the peg windings don't slip. On the
pegs use a winding technique that blocks the string against itself and pushes the string against the peg wall so the peg is pulled inward. This should
solve most problems. Tune
CFFAADDggcc or CEEAADDggcc for now
If you like a higher sound, order a pair of "course 0" strings from Bill Ostrie when you order your strings, set aside the bass C string and one 5 th
course string, put the course 0 strings on the treblemost course, the 1st course strings on the 2nd course, etc, and tune
FAADDggccff
The gauges on the latest Mari set are 023p 025p 024w 029w 033w 040w and the course 0 strings are 020p
|
|
|
smast
Oud Addict
Posts: 28
Registered: 8-1-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thank you for the very detailed advice - I'll be sure to try that out. I'm in the UK and I don't seem to be able to get hold of Daniel Mari (or
Pyramid) strings but I can certainly get some D'addario strings, or La Bella, it would seem. Thanks again, will let you know if it works!
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
La Bella are designed for the FAAddggccff tuning, if I remember it right and D'Addario might have a too high tension on long scale ouds with a string
lenth of more than 60cm.
How long are your strings from bridge to nut?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
If you get LaBella strings, compare the gauges of what you get to the gauges above. People often talk voodoo about strings, the gauges are most
important. LaBella makes a high tuning set O80A for ff tuning, and a normal set O80 for cc tuning. I think for starters you should stick to the C..cc
tuning, so you have a reference.
Bill Ostrie is a very helpful source and a kind man. I just got 6 sets in the mail. He can send Daniel Mari strings anywhere by airmail. The UK gets
US mail quite fast. They are so inexpensive the postage doesn't matter, especially if you order a couple of sets:
"Shipping to all other countries costs $5.75.
International orders are sent by USPS International First Class Mail (airmail) and arrive in 7-10 days, barring any customs delay in your country.
This is rarely an issue - you will know better than we do if it's a concern in your country."
http://ostriemusicsupplies.com/marioud-ar.htm
You might order some course 0 strings to try ff tuning.
|
|
|
smast
Oud Addict
Posts: 28
Registered: 8-1-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks, Aymara - my scale length is 61cm. I bought the D'addario's because I did a quick search on the forum and I noticed that someone had said that
they are ok as long as your scale length doesn't exceed 62cm. Will I be Ok to use these on a 61cm Oud?
In the future though (or now if the D'addarios will wreck my Oud!), due to cost and recommendation, perhaps I'll try the Mari strings. Thanks for the
site info fernandraynaud - that seems a good place to order for delivery to the UK. I recently got seriously stung with customs charges for a guitar
support I ordered but I think it has to be about £40 ($60?) to get charged.
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm not 100% shure ... I use them on a 58.5cm scale oud. Fernand Raynaud can tell you more, because he made some measurements regarding the
D'Addario.
| Quote: | | ...that seems a good place to order for delivery to the UK. |
Another good place to buy strings in Europe is Matthias' shop ... Matthias is a german member of the forums and a luthier too.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
The d'addario set J95 has very standard gauges. The way they make the basses might be a hair heavier than Maris, and that's not even certain. It's
fine on a 610 mm or 615 mm, though you should not tune Turkish.
BTW, tuning the bass courses DGG is not good, the D is passable, especially as everybody seems to cheat on the 6th course at times and provide a
cheaper 0.039" or 0.040" and not a thicker one, but you'd need a lighter 5th course.
Bill Ostrie ships strings in a letter, customs wouldn't normally even know.
|
|
|
smast
Oud Addict
Posts: 28
Registered: 8-1-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks, fernandraynaud, - I'll stick with standard (if you can call it that) Arabic tuning then and I'll try out the D'addario's.
Thanks, Aymara for the heads up with Matthias' shop too; it seems as though there are a number of places I can get hold of decent strings and
certainly no customs charges within the EU.
Well, I'll string up my Oud today and get started then!
Thanks!
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Let us know, if everything works fine and how you like the strings.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
Kelly
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 1-30-2007
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Welcome Smast
Hope your strings are settling in ok. usually takes a couple of days stretching in. I've been using Mari strings and very reasonable price and
excellent service from Bill. Try also Jameels Khalaf Ouds website too for strings and things.
If you are ever in Manchester area look us up- there's a bunch of us regularly meeting on Sundays and always happy to help out.
There is also quite a network around UK see UK meeting threads.
Regards
Kelly
|
|
|
MusiqueGraeme
Oud Admirer
Posts: 4
Registered: 9-4-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Kelly  |
Welcome Smast
If you are ever in Manchester area look us up- there's a bunch of us regularly meeting on Sundays and always happy to help out.
There is also quite a network around UK see UK meeting threads.
Regards |
Hi Kelly,
I'm in Manchester too. Whereabouts do you meet?
Blessings
Graeme
|
|
|
smast
Oud Addict
Posts: 28
Registered: 8-1-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hello again! I'm sorry for having not acknowledged the other kind replies. Thanks, Kelly - I'll check those threads out - and thanks for mentioning
the Manchester meeting. I'm in Essex/London so not too close, unfortunately!
I'm ashamed to say I only just strung up my oud a couple of days ago (busy August/September!) but it's sounding pretty good, I think. I've been
working out a little Trio Joubran stuff on it. The tuning isn't really staying in completely. The high C course is slipping down a semi-tone
overnight but maybe it's just getting used to being strung up! Also, I've heard about and am experiencing the 'clicking' problem, whereby you try to
make fine adjustments and you can't quite reach the exact note you're tuning to (ie you can get either side of it but not exactly on it)... I strung
it up according to Oud Cafe in the peg box but I misunderstood the bridge side of things and strung it from low to high in order of restringing. It
looks a little confused up in the peg box now; would that affect tuning?
Another thing is it's a little (only a little) buzzy on the finger board on the wound strings when played quite hard; if this isn't normal, presumably
I could raise the nut a tiny bit with a shim? Also, on the wound strings, if I slide up beyond where the neck meets the body, it's very buzzy. Is this
just normal - perhaps you wouldn't play up there on those strings normally?
I might be expecting a bit much from a £100ish oud, even though I bought I avoided the middle man by buying in the coutry it was made in... I'm
enjoying it greatly, though.
I'd love to listen to some more traditional oud material. I'm assuming there's a thread on here somewhere so I'll do a search to get
recommendations...
Thanks,
Stuart
|
|
|
Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
|
|
Hey Stuart, I can't help you with your string confusion because I got confused trying to figure out what you meant!
As far as music goes, if like me you just connect straight to the forums you miss out on a whole wealth of stuff on the Mike's Ouds home page,
including loads of mp3's of a variety of styles/players.
Check out youtube, There's heaps of oud vids, I have lot's of oud vids on my channel, (you would probably be most interested in the "fixed Bridge"
playlist, I guess).
|
|
|
smast
Oud Addict
Posts: 28
Registered: 8-1-2010
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks, Sazi, I'll definitely check out your channel and the mp3s on this site.
Well, what's happened is that I strung the strings according to oud cafe in the peg box but the order in which I strung them was from lowest to
highest, which I don't think is what is recommended (I only realised afterwards). Consequently, it's a little tangled... Would this affect tuning?
I'll make sure I do it properly next time!
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
