salim charaf
Banned
Posts: 15
Registered: 8-13-2010
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the sparkling and loved luthiers
love message to Mike, the superadministrator
I am glad to see that oud lovers can get advice on almost everything relating to ouds, mainly when it comes to buying and selling instruments. But we
should keep in mind that the title" buy and sell ouds" also means" how to be covered, how to avoid beeing crooked or abused" and should be open to
talks on garantee, authenticity certificates, and on genuine invoices...otherwise the forum would not live up to its purpose.
I am writing today to tell the unhappy story of a new oud lover:
During a master class on arabic music in France, the master running the training, convinced one of his "pupils" a real beginner to buy top quality oud
in order to make rapid progres, and suggested that the learner buys one of the ouds made by a relative of the teacher( in france, they call this "abus
par personne ayant autorité, because the poor learner was crooked, really robbed). Indded; once he agreed to acquire the oud from the master, he was
promissed a certificate and garantee, he was asked to travel a long distance, 600 miles to the flat of the seller. Once he payed cash and got the oud,
he was told that the luthier would send the certificate and the invoice a month later, once the luthier shop is opened. Obviously , he was taken in
because of the "fame" of the seller( and remember, he had just travelled 600 miles, the return train ticket in the TGV is very costly, so why not
travek back with the oud and wait for the promissed documents, a month passes on very quicly, does it not?)
as a result, he never got any written garantee, nor any invoice despite his repeated phone calls to the "celebrity".
A few months later, the strings were replaced by a specialist, and in the middle of august, the bridge went off. Informed about the incident, the
"celebrity" begged the buyer not to say anything to anyone and to bring the oud to the flat 600 miles away. there He proposed to fix the bridge if the
buyer agrees to pay 1400 euros more. Another luthier with a licence and a shop and 35 years of practice foud a flaw in the initial making causing a
weakness in the body of the instrument, in addition to an insufficient glueing. the repair was carried out for less than 100 euros This is no
defamation or smearing. We have pictures of the oud, we have documents and pictures of the seller-master, we have letters to him, we have invoice of
the repair work ...the same "celebrity" tried twice again with other potential and inexperienced buyers, but fortunately to no avail, Please Mike,
question your conscious firt before closing this thread, because you would be suprised to know who the luthier is, thanks to all
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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To tell you the truth, I don't see what certificates have to with anything. Having or not having a piece of paper changes nothing. A bridge can come
unglued in hot and humid weather, and the maker might or might not repair it cheaply, ideally for free, of course. But what would his having more
paperwork change? It does seem like a very expensive repair, he was right to ask for another opinion. As to whether the oud was badly made, or
overpriced, I'm not sure it is clear; if it only cost 100 euro to fix it, it could not have been due to a very serious basic flaw in construction. I
don't doubt your friend is angry, it appears he was treated quite badly, and it seems you have every right to tell the story, but then why not show
the photos and complete information?
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 365
Registered: 7-17-2008
Location: Paris
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Dear Salim,
why the same story again and again 
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11003#pid75...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10964#pid75...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9306#pid617...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9268#pid614...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8599#pid568...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8672#pid568...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8599#pid556...
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salim charaf
Banned
Posts: 15
Registered: 8-13-2010
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dear Danielo,
it is because the greed is rife and that cheating is attempted again and again. Why have a clear bias in only one direction?
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salim charaf
Banned
Posts: 15
Registered: 8-13-2010
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In my view,the certificate protects the unexperienced buyer, music to my opinion is an art that does not tally with the law of jungle( robbing who we
can), the danger is not the certificate, some people are against it, you would be suprised to find out that all of them are sellers or have interests
in having an obvious bias...
I haven't got the meaning of your phrase "he asked for another opinion", the luthier asked for more money because he thought it would work again, and
the repair was carried out for much less than a tenth of the amount the luthier wanted, the oud never failed again and seems to have kept its initial
"integrity" as the specialists say, as far as the effect of heat is concerned it is a well known thong, thanks for your concern and information, i am
suprised you do not mention the 600 miles and the additional 1400 euros. Your wish to have complete information will be fulfilled, you will receive
everything in due time, but I never said it was going to be through the net, remember no libel, no sulliing, some members may be biased luthiers
themselves. salim
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wahid soltani
Banned
Posts: 27
Registered: 12-31-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Dear danielo,
Why be so biased and anxious to muzzle others, are you a luthier yourself with perhaps "special interests" ? members have the right to know, hé hé,
cherio ) abdelwahid
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mourad algiers
Banned
Posts: 6
Registered: 8-15-2010
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well done, Bravo and bravo and Bravo to you abdelwahid, no muzzling in music, money corrupts souls and arts:mourad 
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 365
Registered: 7-17-2008
Location: Paris
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Dear Friends,
yes I have to confess I am secretly a luthier with "special interests"
My workshop is hidden in the basement and I work only at night time.
Here is my latest flawed instrument (after several expensive repairs) :
Seriously, I have no interests in this story, I'm just wondering what happens here.....
regards,
Dan
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salim charaf
Banned
Posts: 15
Registered: 8-13-2010
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Hi, all
Also seriously, many people realise that some members seem to be triying to inform while avoiding defamation as Mike wishes, while others seem to be
watching and replying and replying " shuuuuuuuut, silence please". So much so that many others are wondering what is really happening here, I
personnaly cannot stand silence and darkness, mainly those of caves and basements, they conjure up bad memories in history and they should not have
their place in the heart of musicians, regards from "lilim" and abdelwahid, 
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ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 458
Registered: 9-14-2009
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Mood: No Mood
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I might be just a little dense today (blame school) but what is this thread supposed to accommplish?
So some guy got screwed over. Without you telling us who screwed him over you are not affecting the probability of someone else getting screwed over
in the future (and no, "a relative of some guy in France" doesn't count).
Troll much?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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I meant like a doctor's "second opinion", so he got it repaired cheaper by someone else. Fine.
It seems all you ever talk about is ouds that are "wrong", or some famous guy that is cheating customers. Ok, ok, we heard it. If you want to make a
clear statement, do so, with supporting evidence, and move on to other stuff. If you don't get busy with something else, your balance may be
compromised.
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salim charaf
Banned
Posts: 15
Registered: 8-13-2010
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A certain language is suprising for musicians, if we mention the names, it would be defamation. Have the thread really been read, if people turn
careful and ask for a paper , the probability of getting taken is lower, (sorry I cannot use the same language, matter of education, blame school
too)The thread is meant to inform people to ask for a written garantee when buying and invoice, not to smear or swear, matter of education too. GOT
IT?I am sure the prices of the ouds will lower too, although this may make luthiers unhappy. GOT IT?Is the purpose of the thread understood or is
density still there ?, if so, tomorrow will be another day. If the name is wanted, it may be got, like others have done, members need only
ask....Got it?
About the "relative of a guy that does not count, I am very sorry again, but I think it is matter of education, and language mastering i may appear
tough but there is here a miscomprehension of the texte: the thread said and meant that the master, ie a teacher ,used his authority as a teacher and
vouched for the seller who was invited to the classes to sell his ouds and who was a member of his sibblings, understood now, the students present
were not dense, they were polite.GOT IT? This description is meant to detect the man concerned without naming him, got it?because he used the same
method 3 times in 3 different places,got it?
troll much?
With kisses and best regards, got it?
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salim charaf
Banned
Posts: 15
Registered: 8-13-2010
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Hi, Fernandraynaud
I am suprised to read that you are a musician , then a counsellor for oud constructions, then a doctor (because of your expression, now you suddenly
turn a psychiatric, and an insulting one, then you speak like a prosecutor who asks for evidence as if you were accused yourself, don't panic, DOCTOR,
it is a lot for one man,but what appears to be sure is that you are yourself obsessed perhaps by your own activities in the field, and you feel
assaulted because of the mirror effect, as you see I am a new member, an oud lover, not an oud junkie, which means I haven't had this activity for
long. Determination is different from obsession .Dear FERNANDRAYNAUD, are you telling me to stop thinking are acting, you must be kidding, the
muzzling doesn't work.The mirror will tell you that your own mental balance is at risk if you do not stop feeling concerned by the cheat, you have
been sending messages warning people against the member ZAKALIA, remember, so what are you so worried for, doctor, my mental heath? Or something
else? with best wishes and friendly kisses, Salim
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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I read carefully all the friends here,let me tell you my own experience.
The last 9 months I live in USA,and I also perform to many places.Usually my students and the people that come to me ask me the prices of my
instruments[my collection] and not only.The first thing that I hear is '''Too expensive for me,don't you have something for beginers?'''
Well my friends,what I think is that the low price instruments usually are and low quality sounding and craftmanship instruments.They don't last in
time.....That does not mean that if someone will put a huge price that the instrument is worth it ....The problem wasn't the luthier but the
teacher.He took advantage of his student.A Good teacher knows to judge if an instrument is good .
Ofcourse there are also and exceptions,but only a few....
In a low quality instrument everything is possible to happen.
But when you buy a very good instrument,you know what you get,and it last a lifetime.
That is my personal opinion....and that is why I never keep ''student'' instruments.
I don't want my friends t have problems like that.
Warmest Regards
Spyros
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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I will add my opinion to this as well.
Not because it matters much but because I feel bad for whoever feels cheated and cant let go.
I agree with you Spyros, in a sense that as a teacher you should recommend a good purchase but sometimes its hard to tell if there are problems with
the instruments without having it for some time. Thats why you should know and trust that person.
What about you guys? you seem like you know a lot about ouds, why didn't your friend come to you for advice?
First of all, I am not a luthier. I do make things that look like ouds as a hobby but I dont make a living as a oud maker. Anyhow, now that this is
out of the way and I can speak without looking like I am affiliated with those blood sucking corporate luthiers.
ok so I want to ask, why is a paper certificate something you wish for so bad? Makers put their labels in the instruments and thats pretty much it. It
usually means it was made by that person unless is a fake which is pretty easy to tell in most cases. But anyways, I end up dealing with customers
for repairs from time to time and let me tell you there is no way in hell the maker did on purpose to sell a defective instrument to anyone. Because,
dealing with ignorant (about the instrument) customers that are unhappy about something they dont know is a F;ing nightmare!
I am not saying that your friend is a difficult customer but rather that oud makers in general would rather spend time making ouds then dealing with
difficult people.
As for a garantee, this is another thing that is not common place in the oud world. Why? because they are delicate and pretty much everything can go
wrong with ouds. Its just the way all fine musical instruments are. But the main reason is that when the instrument leaves the shop, and especially
when it leaves the shop with a student who has no idea what he is doing, the possibilities for disaster are endless. I know of a maker who shared this
story with me, one time a customer returned to him with a new instrument that developed a crack in the top. The customer would travel and leave the
oud in his car and he also used to leave it resting on the wall just under the heating source.
My question is, should that be covered by a garantee? if not then what should be covered?
Also, why the hell would someone who considers himself a beginner and a student get such a fine instrument in the first place? I mean, there is
nothing wrong with paying for quality instruments if a) you are loaded and dont care about money OR b) you are very educated about this particular
maker and design and you have spent countless ours researching online and tossing and turning in bed thinking about wether you should buy it or not.
Its really confusing to me. I would never buy something of that value if I didnt know every single detail of the product and what I should expect.
Thats why I dont buy the "I am a poor unsuspecting student and got taken advantage off by these crooked luthiers"
Anyways, fine ouds are like fine cars if we make the analogy. if you buy a ferrari and you burn the clutch after driving it a week, Guess what? its
not covered on warrantee and its gonna cost you a lot to have it repaired by the dealer.
you can always take it to the local garage who can fix it for a good price but it doesnt mean you will get the best value.
My advice to your friend and to man up, and let it go.
discussing this issue on a forum is useless
he went and discussed this issue with the maker mano a mano. The maker quoted to expensive so he went and had it fixed by someone else and he is happy
with the result. If your friend doesnt like the oud he can always sell it and make the money back.
Thats the end of the story I dont see why you keep bringing it up like you want people to say Yah! that maker should Pay the student back for
traveling 600 miles!
Feeling like you got cheated sucks, I know it. But when people who are a lot more knowledgeable then you say that your situation is normal and that
there is nothing to make a story about... just let it go... if your friend cant stand to look at the oud anymore, let him sell it and buy his next oud
with your help.
Hoping he can find internal peace before its too late because in the end this experience can end up ruining someone's love for the oud.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
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Quote: Originally posted by salim charaf  | love message to Mike, the superadministrator....
Please Mike, question your conscious firt before closing this thread, because you would be suprised to know who the luthier is, thanks to all
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After questioning my conscience, I have decided that this thread is now closed.
NOTE to Mourad, Salim, Wahid, who may or may not be the same person: I don't really care if you are or are not, but I don't have the time, energy, or
patience to deal with you. If you would like to continue to play games on these forums, you will all just be banned. If you would like to continue to
be active members and not waste other readers time, you are more than welcome here. Your choice now friend(s)?
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Mike
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Thread Closed
8-31-2010 at 10:50 PM |
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