tchandler
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cultural acceptance
Hi friends,
I was reading a different thread here recently which included the oft-repeated topic of "non-Arabs can never truly be good/authentic players of Arabic
music," and it made me think about some related issues that I thought I'd throw out there for a little feedback and discussion, hopefully. My
immediate and strong reaction to statements like that is to tell the person making that claim to go fly a kite. I really don't believe that it's
impossible for someone who wasn't born in Egypt (for example) to acclimatize and really learn to play the music at an extremely high level. Myself
I've studied oud for the better part of my adult life, with some great "native speaker" teachers, have listened a lot and generally feel strong enough
in the music that I can and do perform. I was born and raised in the US. That said:
1) When I want to see a concert of Arabic or Japanese or African traditional or classical music, I think at a basic level I want there to be a "native
speaker" at least leading the band. I'm fully aware that I have this double standard, and I also can't think of too many situations outside of the
local bellydance scene where there might be an Arabic music band that isn't made up of Arabic people at least partly. I can think of maybe a handful
of people that are exceptions to this rule, but they're people I know mostly. And some of these people are really exceptional players with very
strong knowledge of the tradition. If I'm a supposed educated insider, then this feeling must be 100x for the so-called layperson.
2) I have no such issues whatsoever when it comes to my own "native" musics, ie western classical, jazz and rock and pop. Mitsuko Uchida playing
Schubert? Yes, I want to see that. Mikrokollectiv from Poland playing weird free jazz? Yes, I want to see that. Boris from Japan playing avant noise
metal? Sure, count me in. Or even more to the point, a band like TV on the Radio, with a lead singer born in Nigeria, but his African-ness doesn't
really factor in the music at all. In these cases, the musician's place of origin and cultural heritage does not affect their authenticity, in my
mind. It might enhance it or it might not matter. Whatever.
3) Perhaps because of the Ali Akbar Khan influence (where he deliberately set up a school to bring Westerners to the tradition), it seems to me that
the Indian classical tradition has more westerners that have achieved a level of recognition and acceptance within the tradition than any other
classical or traditional music I can think of. In Arabic music I can really only think of Weiss. In African music, there's Erica Azim who has achieved
some recognition in the Shona music of Zimbabwe.
Any thoughts? Is this really my own private neurosis?
thanks in advance!
tom
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mrkmni
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Hi David,
Ibnu Sina was not arab, he was ajam ( Iran)...I think his books lasted up to the 19th century in french universities...We all know that european
wanted and wants to hide the arab influence... but that is not the subject.
My point is: you want to know french culture, talk to french people.
What is not normal is fro example non arab people study arab culture and then impose themselves as masters...
Music is culture business, if you are not fully in, it is easy to make mistakes...
I personally always explained arab culture to people from other cultures and learned theirs..it is a good thing to know each other..and to
share...dont you think so?
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ibn sina
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Hi Tom,
I think it's great you brought this point up, as I've been dealing with it in my career (Islamic philosophy) for years, and now with the oud too. I
think the best in the fields are those that enrich their activity with many sources. Let's take Ibn Sina: he was ethnically persian, born in central
asia (Bukhara) and shows Greek and Islamic influences in his philosophy. He is not just a failed Greek philosopher, as some westerners seem to
think--the Islamic tradition informs his thought fully, although he does not accept the theologians views uncritically. In my experience many Arabs
are unable to process his philosophy in rational terms, they memorize it and repeat certain points, but so do western scholars.
Similarly with the oud--it seems to me that many Arabs do not want to share their culture with "foreigners" (al-ajnabi) beyond a certain point. Part
of the problem is I was not raised in the culture., so I dont' have it in my ear. (pt 1)
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ibn sina
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(pt. 2) Beatles' songs are part of my brain. Munir Bashir takes longer. However, since I started playing the oud at an age older than 7, I don't
expect to achieve that kind of mastery anyway. I guess it's a great fall-back in a way. On the other hand all those years of studying arab culture and
the language are paying off. Who knew? I'm still not willing to go live in the Middle East for years and years. But as globalization progresses, one
of the good things is more and more of other cultures are available here.
So don't give up. I read somewhere that the guitar is replacing the oud in Egypt. sigh.
best wishes,
Kiki
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David.B
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As I don't know geography, history, philosophy and Arab music I prefer to delete my last posts and see myself somewhere else.
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mrkmni
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Quote: Originally posted by ibn sina  | (pt. 2) ...So don't give up. I read somewhere that the guitar is replacing the oud in Egypt. sigh.
best wishes,
Kiki |
But that is OK as long as it is played by the aboriginal people.
but can they play sikah with fretted guitar?
anyway, the oud is the father of the guitar, may be he should retire.
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Khalid_Salé
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I think this kind of mindset can be found in many walks of life, on both sides of the line. Simple example: at the martial arts club I used to train
at (in Morocco), the teacher was Moroccan, and very highly skilled, having devoted most of his life to the art. But when a guest Japanese instructor
came to give a lesson, the attendance went up tenfold (no exaggeration). Why? People feel that someone who hails from the motherland of the art will
automatically be better. But then you have someone like Donn Draeger, who went to Japan and studied the martial arts to a very high level, to the
point where his teachers recognised him as being basically the most skilled martial artist in the world. But he was never truly accepted by many
Western people, because he was himself a Westerner, and some saw him as just an 'academic' and not the real thing.
Then on the other hand, the people who belong to the culture from where the art originates will also lay a special claim to it, because they see it as
part of their identity, what makes them what they are. I think as Westerners - especially British and North American people - we do this less because
we don't really have that connection to our art any more, it has become disposable and artificial - this started back when the radio replaced the
parlour instruments, I suppose. Someone once said that for most people in the world, culture is part of the fabric of their lives, whereas for British
people culture is what you go out to visit on a Sunday afternoon. Being British, I can identify with that sentiment. So we don't really care if
someone else comes along and tries to do it themselves.
And then, some cultures are just more embracing than others. The Arabs, especially in the Middle East, to a certain extent see themselves as apart
from other peoples. (The very words 'arab' and 'ajam' reflect this.) If you don't believe me, try finding a Saudi man willing to met you marry his
daughter if you're not from his race (or his nation, or his tribe, or his own extended family). There are exceptions of course, but I am speaking
generally as we needs must when discussing such things. And with their culture being such an integral part of their identity, it seems far-fetched to
them that an outsider could truly get to the heart of it.
A clear example of this is calligraphy: the Arabs may be prepared to accept the Turks (how could they not, when they have so outstripped them in that
department?), but a Westerner who goes to learn the arts of calligraphy in the Middle East will never be accepted as a true master, even if he has all
the proper ijazat and his work is absolutely indistinguishable from that of an Arab or Turk. The American master calligrapher Mohammed Zakariyya has
written a little about his experience with this.
And I might just add this: the Arabs are in a delicate place at the moment, having spent the last couple of centuries watching the Western nations
outstrip them in the material realm, and this may have made them even more guarded towards their culture. Who knows?
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by tchandler | | I really don't believe that it's impossible for someone who wasn't born in Egypt (for example) to acclimatize and really learn to play the music at
an extremely high level. Myself I've studied oud for the better part of my adult life, with some great "native speaker" teachers, have listened a lot
and generally feel strong enough in the music that I can and do perform. I was born and raised in the US. |
Hi Tom. Your experience is much like mine, and I share your beliefs. Personally, I am not the person who will devote himself fully enough to Arabic
music to play it at such a high level, since I am first and foremost a jazz musician and have no intention of giving that up. These are interesting
questions, though. I don't have any answers, either, but I'll try to share some thoughts.
| Quote: |
1) When I want to see a concert of Arabic or Japanese or African traditional or classical music, I think at a basic level I want there to be a "native
speaker" at least leading the band. I'm fully aware that I have this double standard,... If I'm a supposed educated insider, then this feeling must be
100x for the so-called layperson.
|
I understand this feeling and share it in many ways. But, here are some things to consider:
-the average person is generally less concerned with the details than a musician, so it's possible that for many people the feeling is not amplified
but rather diminished. They simply hear something and decide whether or not they like it or not. Only after the fact would they consider these
kinds of cultural factors.
-what I think of as the 'NPR crowd' (in which I include myself!) is often more concerned with "authenticity" as such and would therefore seek out
performers that are judged more authentic. This authenticity doesn't necessarily manifest itself in the music, though.
This is, I think, an example of an Orientalist mindset, in which Westerners seek out "exotic" culture in order to enjoy its "otherness", much like
tourists. They are not concerned with music as such, but rather the experience of partaking in something specifically foreign. Therefore,
the more "foreign", the better.
This is all relative to the experience and judgment of westerners, though, and has little to do with the perception by those who are born into the
culture.
| Quote: |
2) I have no such issues whatsoever when it comes to my own "native" musics, ie western classical, jazz and rock and pop.... In these cases, the
musician's place of origin and cultural heritage does not affect their authenticity, in my mind. It might enhance it or it might not matter.
Whatever.
|
In my experience, many people from the middle east are similarly nonjudgmental, as long as the musicians have respect and truly care about the music.
That said, the differences between Arabic music and western music are such that it is unusually difficult for Westerners to learn well enough to
satisfy an educated listener. No one is going to be forgiving of weaknesses that detract from the quality of music.
The cultural imperialism of the West is not to be ignored either: most people in this world cannot avoid being immersed in some amount of Western
culture from an early age, making it much easier for non-Westerners to learn to play Western music than the reverse.
Jazz is interesting since it has historically been rare to find people outside of the US and Canada that truly grasp the feel of jazz. Europeans (and
interestingly, Israelis) have gradually come into the fold, while many Americans have lost any understanding that they once had (since jazz is largely
ignored here). It's a good example of how something that was once thought to be the domain of a specific culture has been assimilated into a larger
cultural context. Still, compare a drummer from New Orleans with a drummer from anywhere else in the world: the cultural differences still exist.
| Quote: |
3) Perhaps because of the Ali Akbar Khan influence (where he deliberately set up a school to bring Westerners to the tradition), it seems to me that
the Indian classical tradition has more westerners that have achieved a level of recognition and acceptance within the tradition than any other
classical or traditional music I can think of. |
Really? I'd like some examples, since in my experience, Indian classical music is far less open to Westerners than Arabic music. I've never seen a
Indian music concert (and I've been to lots) where an non-Indian played anything other than a drone. Indians are happy to teach, and I've met plenty
of Westerners who had attained a high degree of mastery, but they do not seem truly accepted. Is it happening in India?
Something else to consider: Indian classical music is extremely conservative and most of those musicians do not stray from the tradition. Arabic
music, while maintaining a large traditional repertoire and respect for tradition, tends to be more open to outside influences and new variations
(cf., Abdel Wahab, Rahbani Brothers, etc.). As a result, I think Arabic music is a bigger tent, so to speak.
Also, it is more ensemble-oriented, which means there is room in many ensembles for people that can play their role well, even if they are not
capable of the heights of artistry that natives may be more likely to reach.
It is a profound subject, and there are no easy answers. Neither Westerners nor Arabs are homogeneous entities, so generalizations are always fraught
with contradictions.
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Brian Prunka
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Also, I don't wish to sound self-congratulatory, but I have played oud many times for Arab and Turkish audiences that don't know before hand my
ethnicity, and they are frequently surprised to discover that I am not of middle-eastern origins.
I am perfectly willing to accept that these folks have all been less discriminating listeners (I've encountered that phenomenon frequently enough
when playing jazz that I don't take listeners' comments at face value).
Yet, as I've stated, I am not anywhere near the level of an accomplished native, and I also spend less than half of my musical efforts on Arabic music
(since I focus the majority of my energy on jazz and guitar).
It therefore does not seem unlikely to me that someone more motivated than I and who was sufficiently talented, could overcome the limitations of a
western background to play Arabic music at a very high level indeed.
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tchandler
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Thanks for the good thoughts everyone.
Brian, in Indian music I think of people like Terry Riley, or Nancy Lesh or Ken Zuckerman. I studied briefly with a guy named Warren Senders some time
ago who was also fairly accomplished.
I completely understand about the NPR effect. I'm sure I'm part of that as well, attracted as I am to music and culture that's not my home culture. My
personal favorite is when they do a bit on (I'm making this up, but it's the kind of thing they do alot) Israel and Palestine and then play some Ali
Farka Toure as the music. I think you're right about jazz as well, simply being American doesn't mean that jazz is related to your culture.
Khalid, I also agree with what you're saying about the native speakers necessarily claiming their cultural heritage and wanting to guard against
interlopers. Of course that's valid, but it doesn't preclude the possibility that someone from somewhere else can play really well. And it's
definitely a different issue from where I started, that in the west I believe we have an issue with inauthenticity.
Here's another thought I had about it: I imagine most of us, myself included, place greater value on learning from a native speaker than from a
gringo. I've taught oud a bit as well, and while I have lots of information to impart, I feel that my status as a teacher is always temporary and
because there's no-one more authentic around. A stop-gap or a stepping stone. In my humble case, perfectly right and understandable, but except for
Scott Marcus maybe, I imagine this to be the case with many westerners better than I am.
Just to be clear, I'm not griping or being self-pitying, I'm just fascinated by this little duality or double standard in my self and in what I
perceive to be the culture at large.
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John Erlich
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Hi Tom,
These are very interesting questions.
Partly, it's a matter of perspective.
My band (performing "Music of the Jews of Arab and Muslim Lands") once had a joint performance with a Latin band. I was perceiving among my band
members some feelings of "inferiority" with respect to the other group, because we were mostly of Ashkenazi (Eastern European Jewish) ethnic
background. I dispelled this by pointing out that salsa has its roots in Cuba and Puerto Rico--specifically in the African communities there--and the
fact that the other band, though mostly Latinos, were all of Mestizo or European ancestry, and only 1 member (leader) was from the Caribbean (Puerto
Rico). (They were mostly Central American and of mixed European and Amerindian heritage.) So, we we actually in a similar place with respect to
"authenticity," having a clear connection the "source community" for our music, but not exactly being "of" that community.
To put it in the “American” context, to what extent may I call jazz “my” music, as a European-American?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Peace,
"Udi" John
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Jason
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I think anyone who has grown up in a culture intrinsically linked to a genre of music can relate to your questions.
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