charlie oud
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Semi-tone lower. A=415
Hello 
Now then, I've noticed a number of times on my Sukar and now again on my delightful Fathy Amin oud that there is something quite appealing about
tuning a semi-tone lower than modern pitch. This was standard pitch in the west up to around the time of Mozart. Many years ago I used it as standard
for the Lute.
Farido's taqsims and a number of other recordings are at this pitch.
Interestingly, I always find when changing strings that they will settle almost in unison at this pitch overnight as they stretch down form modern
pitch over night. I start to play, enjoy the feel and sound then tune them back up again only to find I kind of preferred the feel and sound at the
slightly lower pitch. I am now staying at A=415 instead of A=440 because I find it more agreeable all round.
Has anyone else noticed this difference? and I dont think it has anything to do with specific ouds its more like it just sounds and feels better .
Your thoughts and views most welcome. Thank you.
Best Wishes, Charlie
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ameer
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I love it. Nylguts especially have a twang when at that level of tension. You can also play closer to the bridge than you otherwise could a la Farid.
I prefer to do it on bassier ouds like Sukars. I have a Gamil Georges that is far less bassy and what I do with it is tune to standard with high
tension and play right near the rose a la Sunbati. Try tuning down 1.5 steps for kicks; the sound at that tension is pretty interesting though the
tension itself is a bit too light for me.
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Danielo
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Hi Charlie,
I love low tension too !
You can retain the same effect at normal pitch by using a custom string set with low tension (around 3.2 kg). Indeed, for the trebles the nylgut
respond very well at low tensions (nylon tends to be dull).
As you have a Sukar, you can also raise a bit the action - it will remove any possible buzz caused by low tension.
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jdowning
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I suspect that every oud will have its optimum pitch at which it sounds best for a particular string selection, set up and tension.
It has been mentioned before on the forum but on an historical note it is a widely held belief that A415 was a standard pitch in the West in earlier
times. However, A415 pitch is a modern invention, a late 20th C convenience adopted by the 'early music' fraternity that post dates the international
pitch standard A440 established in 1939.
A survey of historical instrument pitches in Europe dating from the 16th C to the 19th C can be found in the edited version of Hermann Helmholtz's "On
Sensations of Tone".
Out of the 270+ entries, ranging in pitch from A370 to A567, there is only one example listed of A415 pitch (a tuning fork in the Roman Catholic
Church in Dresden 1754 - 1824).
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charlie oud
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Thank you for your interest Ameer, Dan & JD
Its encouraging and interesting. I will continue to reflect on this subject. What I find strange is that even when I experiment with strings and
tensions, and I've tried just about all makes, I still find the actual pitch is somehow more appealing to my ear, like its more alive and dynamic.
Please contiune with your responses if you have further thoughts.
Best Wishes, Charlie
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katakofka
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It's a matter of stringlength.
On a 61.5 cm typical arabic Oud and commercial strings lowering the tuning by a half-tone had always a better feeling playing the Oud.
There is a tendency of making a 60cm stringlength arabic Oud recently. Matta does always 60cm, Ghadban sometimes. On a 60cm or 58.5cm you don't need
to lower the pitch. string tension is much better playable on a shorter stringlength
Your oud I guess is 61.5cm ?
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charlie oud
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Kata,
My Sukar is 61.5cm yes you are correct. My new oud by Fathy Amin is 60cm. This is the oud I now play most of the time and I still find the lower pitch
preferable. I will take it back up again every now and then to see if I still prefer the lower pitch. I dont mind the tensions too much as I get used
to them after a while so long as its not too slack or too tight. What fascinates me is the actual pitch, its more a musical issue, my ears seem to
find it has more musicality. I suppose its not that important more that I'm curious why I sense this difference.
Best Wishes, Charlie
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ameer
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There's definitely something to be said for the pitch itself; for me it depends on the maqam in question. I prefer kurd on either B or Bb, not so much
on A. C is alright. Bayati on the second course sounds best at G, fourth course at A. Third course bayati can range from C-D no problem. Of course
these are probably subjective; I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts.
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katakofka
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Charlie what strings are you using on your Fathy amin oud?
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Brian Prunka
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One of the things I like about the Pyramid lute strings is that I have a fairly low tension while tuned to concert pitch.
I really like the "Cedre" album by Ensemble Morkos, they're tuned down a whole step, I think.
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Aymara
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A = 440 Hz sounds definitely unnatural, though most musicians nowadays got used to it.
But there are some musicians and scientists around, who propagate, that the most natural tuning would be a concert pitch of A = 432 Hz.
Google a bit about this pitch and you'll be astonished about some of their arguments.
Many people call this spiritual nonsense, I call it very interesting 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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Modern nylon strings can be tuned to a higher pitch without breaking than gut strings (by about two whole tones according to my 'Pyramid' string
calculator) so can provide a much greater latitude for pitch adjustment (for a given set of strings) than in the days prior to the general
availability of nylon strings (1960's) when gut was the only alternative.
However, raising the pitch higher than optimum levels (which may not be A440) for a lute or oud is not necessarily a good thing acoustically as the
greater stresses on the sound board (due to increased string tension) can reduce sound board flexibility and response.
Some lute players (myself included) find that their lutes 'sing' better at lower pitch levels than are possible with nylon. So, for example, my copy
of the well known 16th C Hieber lute (based on a museum drawing and other information provided by professional luthier friends) sounds better pitched
one or two semi tones lower than G (at A440 pitch) when using modern nylon stringing (60 cm string length). This may be due to the fact that the
original lute was designed for all gut stringing so could not be tuned much higher than F (at A440 pitch) without experiencing frequent breakage of
the gut top string.
(Marin Mersenne writing in the early 17th C gives A375 as a suitable 'standard' pitch for stringed instruments i.e. three half tones below A440).
The same situation might apply to ouds - for those modern designs that nevertheless may still fairly closely follow successful earlier designs of the
famous late 19th C/early 20th C luthiers when all ouds were gut (or silk) strung?
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charlie oud
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Firstly, thank you to all joining in this thread. As mentioned, yes there is certainly a subjective aspect to this but how glad I am to hear some
views. Chris, it is indeed very interesting and I suppose A=432 could be a compromise for those who are looking to settle their torment. Whilst I do
not find its a big issue I'm moved enough to want explore whats happening here. In your replies its clear you can all hear the difference so I'm
relieved I'm not alone.
Kata I use pyramid orange label, they seem somewhat discredited by many but I find them the most 'oudy' of strings.
I have tried extensively, Custom gauges Pyramid lute, Aquilla nyal gut, Kerschner, La bella, Savarez, D'Adario and Daniel Mari. All have their good
points, after so much experimentation,
the orange label set, for me, still delivers the sound I want and I play 5 course FF AA dd gg cc
I appreciate this thread could easily overlap with 'The Great String Debate'. Many will perhaps feel this whole subject to be a tension and stringing
issue. Im keen to emphasise that its the pitch which I'm exploring. Perhaps there is something deeper at play,may be spiritual I dont know, but it is
certainly something in a 'felt' sense.
Best Wishes, Charlie
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charlie oud
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JD we were composing posts at the same time, thank you for your contribution, interesting and further proof if needed that this remains a hot topic
down the centuries!!!. Lutes are definately forced at A=440 and I'm not talking about tensions or strings, I'm referring to 'timbre' ' resonance' and
'musicality' inherent in standard construction.
Best Wishes, Charlie
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