Jono Oud N.Z
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Turkish makam Cargah- Dastgah Charagah
I am curious about which 'Cargah' was the original one.
The 'new' Turkish one is equivalenct to the Arabic Jahargah, where as the 'older' one is like Saba but resolves on the third note
(Cargah-Jahargah).
There is also a striking resemblance between Cargah (the C is pronounced 'Ch') and the Persian Dastgah Charagah.
The scale is almost identical, the main difference being that there is a D to F (A to C in Turkish tuning) transition in Cargah, were as
there is a Dd to F transition in Charagah .
Both are related to the Hijazkar / Hicazkar family of maqamat / makamlar.
It would be amazing if anyone can help me with this one.
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PeppeOud
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As you said, in the actual turkish makam system we have two chargah:
1) an old and almost defunct makam which looked like hicaz from chargah note (C on the score), so is a "saba-like" sounding makam with a different
seyir and ending on the note chargah:
http://neyzen.com/nota_arsivi/02_klasik_eserler/019_cargah/cargah_p...
Cinucen Tanrkikorur used it for this semai:
http://neyzen.com/nota_arsivi/02_klasik_eserler/019_cargah/cargah_s...
2) a "new" chargah which was introduced in the Ezgi-Arel theoretical system to "translate" the western C major scale in the makam system. They
deicided to call it Chargah because in the notation system they introduced the chargah degree is written as DO on the score. There is no traditional
repertoire in this makam as far as i know, except from the composition of Arel himself
http://neyzen.com/nota_arsivi/02_klasik_eserler/019_cargah/cargah_o...
Both makamlar are used very rarely in the performance.. i would say the "original" one is the saba-relative which comes from the persian scale.
"Chahar" means four in farsi, maybe it want to indicate the 4 degree (counting from rast).
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Brian Prunka
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It is my understanding, based on information from A. Jihad Racy, that the Arabic Jiharkah is not equivalent to a major scale.
In particular, the leading tone is a high E 1/2b (or some people consider it a lower E, tomato tomahto), and the A and Bb are slightly lowered.
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oudmaker
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I have been told that so called "old chargah" was used to use for Quran recitel only. That is why it is not used by Turkish compositors ordinary
secular music but religious hyms and sufi music compositions such as mevlevi ayins.
Ekrem Karadeniz writes about an "Arabic Chargah" which He says that there is no sample of a Turkish composition. He also says that he heard this makam
from the people who lived in Arab peninsula.
New Chargah is an "invented" makam by Arel in order to define a so called basic makam of Turkish music. Not a basic but The basic makam. Only He and
his followers use this makam and people of traditional school such as me having very hard time to call it a Turkish music.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Thanks for the replies.
There is no-one I know in New Zealand who can help me with these questions.
I found this sheet music too. (Attached)
I have the books 'Music of the Ottoman Court' by Walter Feldman, and 'Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music' by Karl Signell.
Both are very good and informative, the second book is where I first discovered the old Chargah.
I know that in both Turkish and Arabic (Ottoman) music the fourth note is called Chargah / Jahargah, I was curious which mode which came off this
fourth degree was the original.
(Like, Rast, Dugah, Segah, Acem / Ajam, Evic / Awj etc)
The Saba relative seems to be the older for sure.
I have a recording of Kudsi Erguner & Nezih Uzel which features a Mevlevi Ayin: Çargâh Tevsih (Aziz Mahmud Hudai) - Çargâ Ilâhî (Yunus
Emre).
One thing of interest though, is that if you play the mode from the fourth degree off Rast you get a Acem Asiran / Ajam scale with a flattened seventh
which is equivalent to the Iraqi Jahargah.
The Chargah from the Arab peninsula is interesting, it makes sense as the 'fourth mode' from the basic Rast makam row.
I am curious about the Persian connection also, as they share the same name and have similar scales.
I am interested to hear the Cinucen composition, it is a nice makam, elements of Saba but brighter and more simple.
Also I agree that Ottoman music should not be altered to try to conform to western music theory.
Bring back the true Ottoman music!!
Currently I am doing my best to explain makam theory to western classical and jazz students.
The jazz students seem to understand the concept better, the classical students gave me blank looks, as if they were confronted by someone from Mars
LOL
Attachment: cargah_ayin_nayi_osman_dede_ney.pdf (389kB)
This file has been downloaded 235 times
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Jaffa Road
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In the 1970's the well known (western) ethnomusicologist Bruno Nettle wrote a pretty extensive treatise on Persian Music. If you can find that book
in your local university library, it may answer some of your questions (I read it about ten years ago so I dont really remember).
My favorite recording of Persian music happens to be a rendition of Chahargah by M.R, Shadjarian
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adamgood
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Quote: Originally posted by oudmaker  | | I have been told that so called "old chargah" was used to use for Quran recitel only. That is why it is not used by Turkish compositors ordinary
secular music but religious hyms and sufi music compositions such as mevlevi ayins. |
Not really adding much but...what Dincer writes is also what I've heard from a few people. Thanks guys for posting some repertoire actually I had
forgotten that there's an ayin. Without going through the whole piece I looked to the end...the 4th selam seems to end with makam chargah. Notice the
Son Pesrev is the Saba Pesrev from Tanburi Osman Bey and the son yuruk semai also comes from some saba melody. So obviously chargah and saba are very
related haha.
New Chargah is a theoretical exercise showing how to put Turkish makam music into a box it's simply a makam that uses zero koma alterations.
adam
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Jono Oud N.Z
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It is really amazing to finally have some knowledgeable people to talk to about this!! I talk to my music friends, but they don't know about Ottoman
theory, and sometimes find the concepts quite foreign to them. It seems pretty logical to me though, more so than much western music! Although
obviously connected to ancient Greek theory.
I also have the Mohammad Reza Shadjarian album. He is amazing!!! The group is also excellent!
So the Saba connection is quite evident.
The Kudsi Erguner recording follows the Chargah medley with a Dugah medley which follows nicely, Saba obviously being the link.
If someone could help with my other post about rare and compound makamlar / maqamat this would be very helpful also.
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