Jojoo
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Differences to write Quarter tone
please, I've a little question :
sometimes on some music scores (mainly on Neyzen), B notes (or as E) are written in two different ways. Either the flat is reversed, or it is blocked.
Is this the same note written in two different ways or there is a small-height difference between the two ? sometimes it is noted both ways on the
same score, it intrigues me !
Obviously I would need the records to compare the songs by ear, and it is not the case.
thank you in advance for your help.
below the image showing the two ways of writing :
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Brian Prunka
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In these Turkish scores, they mean different things. The reverse flat is the note that is used for Rast, Bayati, Sikah, Iraq.
The slash flat is used to indicate the note used in hijaz, nikriz, nawa athar.
In Arabic music, the pitch difference in hijaz, etc. is not notated usually (although it is observed in performance).
Most Arabic music uses the slash flat to indicate a quarter tone (Rast, Bayati, etc.), although you'll sometimes see a reverse flat to indicate the
same thing.
The more confusing thing is that in Turkish music, it seems a regular sharp is often a quarter tone, but sometimes it's for Hijaz.
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Jojoo
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I just understand a lot now.
I will concentrate my work on Arabic music in general. I'm going to forget for several months the Turkish music which deserves special
consideration.
This idea to write differently alterations to identify musicals modes is really interesting when we want to make musicological analysis.
thank you very much for your answer
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adamgood
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The accidental on the left (backwards flat sign) indicates B 1 koma flat. In Turkish music 1 koma is defined as 1/9 of a whole tone. As Brian says
this is the (visual) notation for showing the pitch which is named Segah.
The accidental on the right shows B 4 komas flat, correct what Brian writes that it is used to notate the B used for makam Hicaz.
Along these lines when you see what looks to us like a "normal" flat sign, this indicates 5 komas flat.
adam
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adamgood
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Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  |
The more confusing thing is that in Turkish music, it seems a regular sharp is often a quarter tone, but sometimes it's for Hijaz.
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Brian, not to be picky (but I know it is) technically in Turkish music there are no quarter tones or at least no written quarter tone available since
1/4 tone would be defined as 1/2 of a 1/2 step...Turkish music divides whole tone by 9.
BTW, a regular looking sharp equals +4 komas.
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by adamgood |
Brian, not to be picky (but I know it is) technically in Turkish music there are no quarter tones or at least no written quarter tone available since
1/4 tone would be defined as 1/2 of a 1/2 step...Turkish music divides whole tone by 9.
BTW, a regular looking sharp equals +4 komas. |
Oh, I know. There aren't really "quarter tones" in Arabic music either, it's just a convenient term, since most of the tones are "microtonal" to
some extent.
What I meant but was too lazy to type was:
The note written as a regular sharp is actually flatter, and would sometimes be rendered in Arabic music as "half-sharp" (e.g., Rast) and other times
as "sharp but slightly lowered" (e.g., Hijaz).
I guess it's good to be picky, because maybe someone will find that clarification helpful.
Would you agree that Turkish practice actually does lower the Segah note slightly more than 1 koma? It's obviously higher than in Arabic music, but I
don't hear it as being the same as in Hijaz (maybe my ears are too conditioned by Arabic music).
Do Turkish musicians write the third note of Shatt Araban as a slash-flat?
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adamgood
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | Would you agree that Turkish practice actually does lower the Segah note slightly more than 1 koma? It's obviously higher than in Arabic music, but I
don't hear it as being the same as in Hijaz (maybe my ears are too conditioned by Arabic music).
Do Turkish musicians write the third note of Shatt Araban as a slash-flat?
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In practice these pitches are moving all over the place during a performance. For the pitch segah it depends on what the makam is...if it's Rast,
Segah or Huzzam then (and forgetting that this pitch in these makams lends itself to variation and glissando, etc) it can be slightly lower than 1
koma. In Ussak makam for example, by default it wants to be lower, being pulled down by the tonic Dugah. And right it's not going to be as low as the
Bb for hicaz.
Hmm what's the 3rd note of shattaraban? In Turkish notation the karar is written as RE / D so that would make the 3rd note in relation to that Fa
diyez / F#. F 4 komas sharp. For Arabic notation but using Turkish tuning that would make it um...B 1 koma flat? (backwards flat) I think right?
Building hicaz from G:
G, A flat w/ slash (4 koma flat), B backwards flat (1 koma flat)
Wow would be great if we could drop lilypond code into our posts!!! There is a wiki extension.
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Brian Prunka
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Shatt Araban in Arabic music is: G Ab B C
The Ab is high and the B is low, but not as low as it would be in Yekah, for example (which is written B half-flat in Arabic music).
I mis-transposed, I was thinking about how you perform it, not how it was written transposed.
My point is that in Arabic music, the 3rd note of Hijaz and the 3rd note of Rast are not the same, but it is often written that way in Turkish
music.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I'm just going by the way I see stuff written and listening to how it's performed.
I always see Rast written: G A B(reverse) C D E F#
Let's look at Hicazakar: G Ab(slash) B(reverse) C D E(slash) F#
Now, without going into Koma theory or subtleties of performance intonation, Arabs definitely do not conceptualize the third and seventh of
Rast to be the sames notes as the third and seventh of Hijazkar.
My question is, do Turkish performers really consider Rast and Hicazkar to have the same 3rd and 7th degrees?
It's interesting when comparing Turkish/Greek/Armenian performances of Ottoman repertoire with performances from the Arab world (particularly older
performances when Turkish sheet music wouldn't have been available to Arab musicians): because some Ottoman-style performers play Rast makam's third
very high, and some Arab performers play Ajam's third very low (when fingered), certain makams and modulations get transmogrified in the process of
traveling.
Some musicians hear the Turkish performers play Rast very close to Arabic Ajam, and conclude it is Ajam and play it that way, while others recognize
that it is intended to be Rast and lower the third to conform with Arabic practice. As a result, you have a lot of interesting variations on the same
piece (to me, the resulting variety is one of the beauties of an oral/aural tradition).
In listening to some very old recorded performances, anecdotally it seems to me the intonation of Hijaz in particular used to be more similar between
the two traditions, but it has gotten slightly wider over time in Arabic music.
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adamgood
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka |
Now, without going into Koma theory or subtleties of performance intonation, Arabs definitely do not conceptualize the third and seventh of
Rast to be the sames notes as the third and seventh of Hijazkar.
My question is, do Turkish performers really consider Rast and Hicazkar to have the same 3rd and 7th degrees?
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Sure on paper and to construct the basic scales you need to use the pitches segah and evic for both makams Rast and Hicazkar. But musically they
function differently. The way a composer or taksim artist wiggles the segah pitch in makam rast just isn't the same as in hicazkar. And this has
something to do with there being tastes of makam Ussak and makam Segah in Makam Rast. The same goes for the evic pitch. Different colors, different
taste.
A Turkish musician will think of both Rast and hicazkar as using Segah but in different ways. The color of the pitch segah in makam rast is like it's
used in makams Segah, Huzzam, Ussak for example. Hicazkar doesn't have that segah color inside.
Brian remember when I was looking to make a quick transposition from Turkish to Arabic notation using Lilypond? Impossible because of exactly what we
are talking about here. I still love your description of Arabic notation as being "lossy" compared to Turkish. MP3 is a lossy compression which can
never recover its lost bits if converted back to a wav file, so it is between these notation systems.
But that's not to diss Arabic notation...the paper is only a guide to remind you of how the piece's notes are ordered. As long as you know how to
wiggle the notes for the makam, it doens't matter how full or lossy the notation. In fact Tukish notation itself is very lossy compared to how it's
played in practice so if anything, the simpler notation may be enough.
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