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David.B
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RAST/GEORGE ABYAD
http://www.mikeouds.com/audio/real/george_abyad_rast.rm
At last, I'm able to play the whole track. Now I'd like to analyze it with your help :
00:00 I guess this is a Samai in maqam Suznak. I don't know the composer and of course this is an extract from the whole piece. Does anyone know the
composer, have the score or the interpretation of a musician?
00:22 Glissando Bb -> B, Bb as a dint to B (Hijaz tetrachord on G). See Arab Music Theory in the Modern Period (AMTMP) page 621.
00:24 Glissando G -> F, on the 3rd course.
This extract and the whole taqsim confirm the example p. 580 (AMTMP) : maqam Suznak does not duplicate in the lower octave. It uses GG AA BB-b- C, in
other words the lower notes of Rast.
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David.B
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00:00 This is Samaee Rast by Mohamed Abdel Karim. I can see/hear differences between George's track and the score. I'll study it next...
A huge  and  to Husain Sabsaby, and if you don't mind I put the score here. Also, it's an extract from : "Composition by famous oud players of
the modern age, Silh al wadi institute" by Husain Sabsaby.
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David.B
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بحري التركماني بزق bahri altorkmani
آلة البزق + بزق -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUf390VQlhI
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David.B
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Is it me, or the staff notation? I don't understand why it is written 4 above the G clef. 5 should be written instead of 4 and 7 instead of 5, am I
right? If I am, what GA (George Abyad) plays is written between the 5th and 8th measure, twice. The 6th measure starts on F and GA starts on E-b- with
the same pattern. GA's version is also different at the 8th measure. In both case GA exclude the note A (natural). So, I think it is voluntary in
order to keep the Hijaz tetrachord on G.
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myeyes2020
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It's interesting that the samai is called "samai rast" while the taslim is in susnack. The variation in GA's rendition may be his style of
ornamenting the taslim. How the heck did you find the score to this....lol I like how he modutates to Bayati G at 5:20 (I'd have to play this on my
oud to make sure as I can't always identify these by ear). This would make the maqam Nairuz at this point (Rast DO + Bayati Sol).
You may be interested in the Egyptian son Ghanili shwaya swhaya (sing to me slowly) in maqam suznak that modulates to bayaty sol (Nairuz?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZI2-jbxbVs&feature=related
thanks for the education.
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David.B
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Great minds think alike! I was trying to send to you a message while you were writing here ... (bad connection with the airport).
I see what you mean, the modulation is supposed to happen in the 2nd khana... only?
Samai is Turkish, so I think we must consider the seyr -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=XqZE_O3ww20
Hijaz tetrachord on G is common in Rast maqam. So seyr ... modulation ... ? Also the score comes back quickly on A natural.
I don't feel it like ornamentation. This is something deeper, it's not a coincidence if it happens at each time a A natural appears.
Finally, a few contacts on facebook is not so useless 
Quote: Originally posted by myeyes2020  | | I like how he modutates to Bayati G at 5:20 (I'd have to play this on my oud to make sure as I can't always identify these by ear). This would make
the maqam Nairuz at this point (Rast DO + Bayati Sol). |
I don't want to jump directly at 05:20, but I confirm the presence of maqam Nairuz (I write Nirz). I like this modulation, it comes with a soft attack
and contrasts a lot with the precedent part.
| Quote: Originally posted by myeyes2020 | | You may be interested in the Egyptian son Ghanili shwaya swhaya (sing to me slowly) in maqam suznak that modulates to bayaty sol (Nairuz?)
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZI2-jbxbVs&feature=related |
[/url]
Off course, one of my first song on oud 
And education will come from our discussions. I hope for different points of view, it will be less rigid than my analyze of Shadd 'Araban in one
block.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
Cool, the score appears!
I will learn this piece.
It is in maqam Rast, but 'borrows' from Suznak for 'added flavor'.
The A natural usually replaces the Ab.
The second Khana modulation appears to be Nawa Athar (I wonder in there was an Eb instead of an Ed in the first half of the second bar here
originally?)
Often, with older compositions the score came after the recording..
In maqam Panjgah, the lower jins is Nishabour (E, F#, G, A), the E replaces the Ed in this context.
Panjgah is a compound of Rast and Nishabour.
('Music of the Ottoman Court', W. Feldman).
Because both Rast and Bayati feature jins Hijaz on G so commonly, they probably are quite liberal with this modulation.
'Tahmilla Rast' by Mohammed Qassabji...
(http://www.mikeouds.com/qassab.html)
...features this Suznak focus also and Simon Shaheen renamed the piece 'Tahmilla Suznak'.
Also the Ab of jins Hijaz on G (in Bayati) used to be called 'Bayati', and this movement was inbuilt in the early Bayati repertoire. ('Music of the
Ottoman Court').
Ushshaq was the main maqam in the Bayati family originally.
('A History of Arabian Music to the Thirteenth Century' by Henry George Farmer).
Jamil Bashir's 'Samai Rast' also has a modulation in the Taslim and other parts of his piece that is very prominent.
He actually ends the Taslim with Nawa Athar. ('Jamil Bashir's oud method, vol 1').
This compound maqam is referred to as maqam 'Hayyan' in 'The Music of the Arabs' (Habib Hassan Touma).
The stops on F (below jins Hijaz on G) represent a suspended cadence and is jins Nakriz on F.
The Bb to B motive used to be played Bb to Bd (Awj) in the old intonation, this occurs in current Turkish music and hints at maqam Awj.
'Nairuz' was originally a 'maqam' that was only a pentachord to start with (D, Ed, F, G or G, Ad, B, C), this later evolved into a full maqam, later
called maqam Ushshaq.
The 'Zebek' article explains this.
Here is an old anonymous piece in Nairuz too.
Maqam Nairuz itself is jins Nairuz above jins Rast, although I have never seen a composition actually composed in the maqam itself.
It is a very common modulation though and can often lead on to Saba on G afterwards.
Attachment: Zebek and History of Makam Structures.pdf (236kB)
This file has been downloaded 349 times
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David.B
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z |
The second Khana modulation appears to be Nawa Athar (I wonder in there was an Eb instead of an Ed in the first half of the second bar here
originally?)
Often, with older compositions the score came after the recording. |
And what about Hijazayn, since the finalis of the modulation is D? Also I understand what you mean about the shrunken augmented second. In this case
Ab might be a little higher (but not necessarily) ... But more important, this Samai has been written by Mohammed Abdul Kareem for bouzouki :
"Husain Sabsaby was born in Syria. His father gave him his first music lesson at the age of six. He would enroll in the Arabic Institute of Music in
Halab, and then continue his musical journey being tutored by Mr. Mohammed Abdul Kareem, "Prince of Bouzouki"." (source -> http://www.arabicouds.com/links.html)
Does bouzouki allow the concept of shrunken augmented seconds?
| Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z |
In maqam Panjgah, the lower jins is Nishabour (E, F#, G, A), the E replaces the Ed in this context.
Panjgah is a compound of Rast and Nishabour.
('Music of the Ottoman Court', W. Feldman). |
Do you mean Rast on G as the higher jins (G A B-b- c) and Nishabour as the lower (E F# G A)? I'm a bit confused.
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Brian Prunka
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it's not bouzouki, but buzuq (or buzuk or buzouk etc.), which has tied frets like a saz or tar . . . i.e., you can have frets for any notes you want.
It's not uncommon to add extra frets to accommodate the small A2 in hijaz.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
Good point about the fretting of the buzuq.
It is possible to adjust the moveable frets to play these non equal tempered intervals.
I would be surprised if Syrian musicians play 'piano' Hijaz, as many reject the 24 quarter tone system.
Most Syrian musicians play Hijaz the old way.
Omar Naqichbendi and Al Kindi Ensemble, etc, play like this for example.
I am not sure about Hijazayn, but will investigate..
Concerning maqam Panjgah:
'Cantemir considered the makam Pencgah to be a compound of Nisabur and Rast:
'This makam is produced by three secondary scale degrees and one basic scale degree. The secondary scale degrees are acem, uzzal (hijaz), buselik.
The basic scale degree is rast'.(Music of the Ottoman Court.)
When the F# appears, the Enatural replaces the Ed in maqam Panjgah. The upper part of Nishabour is usually G, A and Bb. So, the basic sayr of
Nishabour is: G, A, Bb, A, G, F#, E. This is blended with maqam Rast in Panjgah. In the final descent the F replaces the F# and the Ed, the Enatural;
concluding with maqam Rast.
Here is a classic piece that illustrates this.
Panjgah is also a useful link between Rast and Nakriz as also shown in the composition.
Nawa Athar seems more likely in the Samai though.
Also, thanks for the sheet again!
I will learn this piece.
I had trouble removing italics, so I added bold too, LOL
Attachment: pencgah_saz_semaisi_i.pdf (48kB)
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David.B
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Really interesting, I've just sent a message to Husain Sabsaby, wait and see...
No problem with bold, but let's have some color too 
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Cool!!
Good idea
I am interested too...
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David.B
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z |
The stops on F (below jins Hijaz on G) represent a suspended cadence and is jins Nakriz on F.
The Bb to B motive used to be played Bb to Bd (Awj) in the old intonation, this occurs in current Turkish music and hints at maqam Awj.
|
OK, now I understand the glissando-s. Also I "feel" it like that : F <- -> B (which is supposed to be Awj in the old intonation), while I "feel"
-> G C <- at 00:54. I don't know if there's something interesting to grab here 
| Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z |
Maqam Nairuz itself is jins Nairuz above jins Rast, although I have never seen a composition actually composed in the maqam itself.
It is a very common modulation though and can often lead on to Saba on G afterwards. |
Yes, I think this is what happens at 05:27, the note cb is introduced, even if c is not totally excluded.
I have to read the 'Zebek' article ... It's amazing how a makam can drift, it's impossible to understand in term of Arabic scale!
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Jono Oud N.Z
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I had often heard these Nakriz sounds in many maqamat, and other 'secondary' jins too, but didn't know how to think of them.
The 'Makam Guide' by Murat Aydemir was the one who termed these temporary stops 'suspended cadences'.
This was very helpful for me too.
Even in D'Erlangers work, it seems that a maqam was explained more precisely, where as these days only the two basic jins are mentioned or even worse,
as you said; the scale concept.
The scale is good as a skeleton, but that's all, it doesn't show the sayr or these temporary jins either.
Sayr does not have to be complex at all, it seems that each maqam has a basic 'inbuilt melody', and every piece in this maqam is like a 'variation on
the core melody'.
I found the Zebek article very interesting; the evolution of the maqam.
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David.B
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I read this term 'suspended cadences' a few days ago but impossible to get hold on it. The books by Touma and Lloyd were open at that time ...
| Quote: Originally posted by David.B | | 00:56 Trill G -> Ab, so the Ab sketched at 00:54 is more important and l'd like to call it a dunt (AMTMP p.618), but it's not used as a
precadential accidental. |
I would say it's a touch of Suznak ...
01:03 Qarar F (FF) : Jaharkah
01:20 Qarar C (CC) : Rast
01:28 Trill G -> A-b- -> G ... Touch of Nirz
01:35 Qarar F (FF) : Jaharkah
01:50 Qarar C (CC) : Rast
Note : many pivot-notes. I'm a bit lazy and qarar shows two of them.
02:00 Little glissando E-b- (Rast) -> E-b- (Bayyati) what do you think about these two E-b-?
02:01 Qarar D (DD) : Bayyati what do you think about this modulation, Rast -> Bayyati?
02:05 Glissando F -> Gb -> F ... Touch of Saba
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Jono Oud N.Z
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I had a listen..
Very interesting glissando! (Ed)
I had not noticed this before.
I have read that modulating from C maqamat to D maqamat and similar modulations is not generally accepted.
But...
Then, after learning pieces in maqam Ushshaq, I found that there is a b7 Rast jins emphasized underneath the Ushshaq jins.
In Turkish music this emphasis separates Ushshaq from maqam Bayati, also Ushshaq descends to a lower Rast on G below the tonic too.
I started to notice suspended cadences on D in many Rast pieces and taqasim, this is the reverse of what happens in maqam Ushshaq.
Later I learned a maqam called Rast Kardani (Gerdâniye in Turkish).
This maqam begins with Rast on Kardan (high C) and cleverly descends to Ushshaq, using G as the pivot note and connecting point between the two
maqamat.
So, it seems that a full modulation between C and D maqamat, etc is not common, but these do seen to represent temporary stopping points or suspended
cadences.
Not dissimilar to a C, Dm, C chord change in Western music.
Rast Kardani being an exception.
This maqam shows that these modulations are possible if they are achieved smoothly though.
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David.B
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I've read the same thing. On the same CD you have a modulation from Nakriz to Hijaz: track 7 at 00:31. But I read in AMTMP that Hijaz is so strong in
Nakriz and / or Nawa Athar that one can quickly module to Hijaz.
| Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z | Then, after learning pieces in maqam Ushshaq, I found that there is a b7 Rast jins emphasized underneath the Ushshaq jins.
In Turkish music this emphasis separates Ushshaq from maqam Bayati, also Ushshaq descends to a lower Rast on G below the tonic too.
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Do you think that is the case here? I do not feel a lower Rast on GG... And what about Gb? Is it usual to use this note in Ushshaq? I'm not sure, but
I think Bayyati is unfolding from A to the note C at 02:10 and we are back on Rast at this moment. So it's about 10 seconds of Bayyati.
| Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z | | So, it seems that a full modulation between C and D maqamat, etc is not common, but these do seen to represent temporary stopping points or suspended
cadences. |
I feel it like that at 02:45, a suspended cadence on D (you have a qarar too), what do you think? These concepts of suspended cadences and pivot-notes
are brand new for me, I used to focus on notes out of the scale.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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The Nakriz sound in Hijaz is the b7 'chord' beneath the tonic.
The Hijaz jins a tone above the tonic in Nakriz is the equivalent in reverse.
I have never actually heard a full modulation between these though (e.g: a piece or taqsim in Nakriz linking to one in Hijaz), where as the shift from
Rast to Ushshaq and Bayati does occur sometimes.
The differences between Ushshaq and Bayati are explained here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBOizia1tZg
Traditionally, maqam Bayati does not have a focus on the Rast jins on b7 (C) under the tonic, but this is very common to Ushshaq.
This would make the transition to Ushshaq more likely traditionally. The lower Rast on G jins is not always present.
In Bayati, the main sayr is; G, F Ed, D (descending).
Here are two pieces that illustrate the differences.
Often Syrian and Egyptian (etc) musicians play Bayati-Ushshaq as one maqam these days (Bayati).
Older Arab archive recordings reveal the differences though.
In Turkish music the separation is more pronounced.
The Gb is a taste of Saba off Ushshaq / Bayati
Attachment: Beyati Saz Semaisi G.Baktagir.pdf (97kB)
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Attachment: ussak_ss_neyzen_aziz_dede_ney.pdf (38kB)
This file has been downloaded 266 times
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Jono Oud N.Z
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| Quote: |
And what about Hijazayn, since the finalis of the modulation is D |
I am just looking into maqam Hijazayn.
This maqam was created by the famous Ottoman Sultan composer Selim III (1761-1808).
'Hijazayn' means 'double Hijaz.'
http://www.donjuanarchiv.at/veranstaltungen/symposia/symposia-2008/...
This maqam begins with Hijaz and ends on Hijaz on Usharyan (low A).
Interesting maqam...
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David.B
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I've just skimmed the 'Zebek' article.
Introduction comes into resonance with the article below, which expresses the use of usul and four or five modes with Pythagorean intervals into the
learning method. Unhappily still only in French. If someone is brave enough to type it and translate with google for example ...
Development comes into resonance with the way I feel Hijazayn in the second khana. Modulation peaks on the c and created a tension that resolves the D
to the tenth bar. I think that this approach came to me because of what the Egyptian subcommittee at the 1932 congress established : a piece of music
can start on any note but it is imperative that end on the tonic (asas). Here I'm really curious to know what Arab style
players think.
Attachment: ENSEIGNEMENT ET ORALITE A LA VEILLE DU XXIe SIECLE.zip (570kB)
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David.B
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z | Traditionally, maqam Bayati does not have a focus on the Rast jins on b7 (C) under the tonic, but this is very common to Ushshaq.
This would make the transition to Ushshaq more likely traditionally. The lower Rast on G jins is not always present.
In Bayati, the main sayr is; G, F Ed, D (descending).
Here are two pieces that illustrate the differences.
Often Syrian and Egyptian (etc) musicians play Bayati-Ushshaq as one maqam these days (Bayati).
Older Arab archive recordings reveal the differences though.
In Turkish music the separation is more pronounced. |
OK, I understand. So, what I call 'Bayati' is 'Ushshaq'. This explains why I find it hard to locate when the modulation ends ...
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David.B
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02:16 The E-b- is still a little low.
02:17 In the phrase D E-b- F, D E-b- F, F E-b- D C. The E-b- comes back a little higher : Rast.
02:26 Ab, precadential accidental.
02:29 Ditto.
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David.B
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In fact we have the same scenario, Qarar on D (DD) at 02:45, and glissando F -> Gb -> F ... (touch of Saba) at 02:56, and focus on C. I'm not
sure but the E-b- sounds a little bit low too (and maybe the BB-b- as well). So, I guess we're back on Ushshaq.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi
I have been away for a few days.
I will get back to this discussion soon.
Very interesting!
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David.B
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Welcome back 
Now I'm puzzled about the Gb used as a touch of Saba. At 02:00 and 02:45 it's OK, GA uses to make qarar for a specific reason.
But at 04:08 :
E-b- F G Ab B c B Ab G F E-b- F G, GG
Ab G F E-b- D
B Ab G F E-b-
c d B Ab B c Ab G Ab B G F G Ab F Gb F (related, but not a trill) E-b- F E-b- D E-b- D
C
Ab G F E-b- D D E-b- (tremolo) D C
And at 08:00 :
F G A Bb c Bb Bb A Bb A Bb A (trill) G A G Ab G F G F Gb F E-b- F E-b- F E-b- D
c Bb A G, Bb A G F, G F E-b- D, F E-b- D C
G BB-b- C D (tremolo), F E-b- D F E-b- D E-b- (starts on F, focus on E-b-) D C
The Gb in red don't belong to Saba. To me it sounds more like a precadential accidental. This accidental is common in Nahawand for example but nothing
is written about it in Rast!
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