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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi, back again..
Interesting...
I have a book called 'The Repertoire of Iraqi Maqam' by Rob Simms, it is very good.
The book contains vocal transcriptions and the theory of the Iraqi Maqam. This can be applied to oud and instruments too.
Page 22 in the book mentions two varieties of Rast; 'Rast Hindi' and 'Rast Turki'.
'Rast Turki' has a naghmah modulation of Saba on 2.
This could possibly explain this.
Saba on 2 resembles Nahawand Murassah somewhat too.
I just looked at your description of the notes again..
Another possiblity is a hint of Mukhalef (Iraqi; Segah with flat 3; Gb).
Master Munir Bashir even modulates briefly from Hijazkar to Mukhalef on the third.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12198#pid82...
Actually...
I had a few listens, and I believe it is a touch of Saba (D).
This seems to help the downward flow to the tonic, and pull the emphasis away from the fifth (the opposite of the Ab)
This note is used in cadences in Hijazkar all the time too (although not Saba here, but functionally the same).
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David.B
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You have a bunch of amazing books that I absolutely must have!
Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z  | I had a few listens, and I believe it is a touch of Saba (D).
This seems to help the downward flow to the tonic, and pull the emphasis away from the fifth (the opposite of the Ab)
This note is used in cadences in Hijazkar all the time too (although not Saba here, but functionally the same). |
Yes, this is what I call a precadential accidental.
I think it's a mix too :
02:05 Touch of Saba, because the final cadence is far away, the Ab at 02:26 and 02:29 announce the cadence by emphasis on G.
02:45 Qarar on D (DD) and glissando F -> Gb -> F ... Touch of Saba which works in the cadence.
04:08
E-b- F G Ab B c B Ab G F E-b- F G, GG
Ab G F E-b- D
B Ab G F E-b-
c d B Ab B c Ab G Ab B G F G Ab F Gb F (related, but not a trill) E-b- F E-b- D E-b- D
C
Ab G F E-b- D D E-b- (tremolo) D C
The Ab is a part of Suznak and the Gb works as a part of the cadence. The rest on C is really close and E-b- sound high.
08:00
F G A Bb c Bb Bb A Bb A Bb A (trill) G A G Ab G F G F Gb F E-b- F E-b- F E-b- D
c Bb A G, Bb A G F, G F E-b- D, F E-b- D C
G BB-b- C D (tremolo), F E-b- D F E-b- D E-b- (starts on F, focus on E-b-) D C
This phrase sounds perfect as a cadence : Bb leads to the A, Ab leads to the G and Gb to F. Then a quick emphasis on G (and maybe the 'shrunken'
grepetto on E-b-) before the final cadence.
Also I found two new examples :
05:04
BB-b- C
E-b- D C, F E-b- D, Gb F E-b-, A-b- G F, B-b- A G, c B-b- A, d
c d c B-b- A G
c d e-b- d c, c B-b- A G, G F E-b- D, D G F E-b- F E-b- D E-b- (grepetto) D C
Here Gb appears in an ascending movement with a A-b- ...
The grepetto is complete and matches with the one at the final cadence. So Gb is a precadential accidental.
06:33 Glissando E-b- (Rast) -> E-b- (Ushshaq/Bayyati), 06:39 Glissando F -> Gb, 06:45 Rest on C. Like at 02:45 both uses are intertwined.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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The term 'precadential accidental' is an excellent one!
This is a good way to describe these notes.
The Ad is also very interesting, it is quite fast and easy to miss this section.
All I can think is that the Ad functions as the third of Hijaz on F, in the old tuning (like Turkish), like Nahawand Murassah again.
These types of variant tunings and subtlety are more common in Turkish music, but they come up in the Iraqi maqam book too (vocal transcriptions) and
in older Arabic recordings.
There are definitly two tunings of the Sikah pitch in this taqsim that vary in context too.
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David.B
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I understand what you mean about the A-b-
My thoughts, my feeling to be more precise :
On the 2nd course we have A-b- and B-b- at both ends. It sounds like a shrunken augmented second of A B in the Hijaz jins on G. Also there's a
mirroring effect A-b- A l Bb B-b-. Two ajnas fitted togheter with four possibilities (Bayyati, Rast, Nahawand, Hijaz with a
shrunken augmented second). But I must confess, this sounds far-fetched ...
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David.B
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03:09 Focus on E-b-, strong presence of maqam Sikah.
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David.B
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03:33 Fast descending movement on the Rast 'scale'
03:35 Many qararat, AAb, FF, DD, GG, C, then a sort of chord F A F which seems to be a qarar ameliorated -> Ornaments
03:51 Many glissando Bb -> A. It acts as a 'leading tone' to the G (AMTMP p.591)
03:54 Ab, Suznak
What happens at 04:08 has been treated here :
| Quote: Originally posted by David.B | Now I'm puzzled about the Gb used as a touch of Saba. At 02:00 and 02:45 it's OK, GA uses to make qarar for a specific reason.
But at 04:08 :
E-b- F G Ab B c B Ab G F E-b- F G, GG
Ab G F E-b- D
B Ab G F E-b-
c d B Ab B c Ab G Ab B G F G Ab F Gb F (related, but not a trill) E-b- F E-b- D E-b- D
C
Ab G F E-b- D D E-b- (tremolo) D C
And at 08:00 :
F G A Bb c Bb Bb A Bb A Bb A (trill) G A G Ab G F G F Gb F E-b- F E-b- F E-b- D
c Bb A G, Bb A G F, G F E-b- D, F E-b- D C
G BB-b- C D (tremolo), F E-b- D F E-b- D E-b- (starts on F, focus on E-b-) D C
The Gb in red don't belong to Saba. To me it sounds more like a precadential accidental. This accidental is common in Nahawand for example but nothing
is written about it in Rast! |
04:30
A Bb A G G G, B-b- B B-b- B A A A, c d c B-b- B-b- B-b-, d e-b- d c c
Is this ornament, with such an interval (smaller than a minor second), common for you?
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Jono Oud N.Z
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If the 'shrunken augmented second' is too shrunken it becomes Sikah Baladi.
Hijaz should be non-tempered but...
http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/sikah.html#sikah-baladi
In the song 'Shams El Asil' sung by Oum kalsoum, there is a modulation from Hijazkar to Sikah Baladi, very interesting and effective, there is a link
on the page.
Regarding the B to bd interval, this is certainly not common.
But...
This would be a touch of Mahur I believe.
Mahur is Persian originally (=Ajam, Persian).
But in the Ottoman tradition this became a compound maqam, being a mix of Mahur and Rast.
Dimitrie Cantemir writes:
'...makam mahur which employed the secondary scale degrees buselik and mahur.' (Music of the Ottoman Court').
There seem to be two different versions of Mahur today, the Turkish and the Arabic.
The difference is that the Turkish one has two additional notes; Sikah and Awj.
The Arabic one has only one; Mahur (B).
But...
'...MAHUR, is also incorrectly notated by present performance standards. The notation indicates the pitches Puselik and Mahur for the 3rd and 7th
degrees...Musicians...,however invariably perform MAHUR with the same sacle as RAST, i.e., with Segah and Evic as the 3rd and 7th degrees..'
(From Makam, Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music', Karl Signell).
It seems the Arabic version is in the middle, and is described as jins Rast + jins Ajam on Nawa.
http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/rast.html#mahur
Muhammad Qadri Dalal's CD 'Unwonted Maqamat' features this version.
http://www.amazon.com/Syrie-muhammad-maq%C3%A2mat-insolites-unwonte...
Two examples of the same piece:
Attachment: phpJUbUMq (67kB)
This file has been downloaded 571 times
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David.B
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You give the name of a maqam to my feeling! Perfect, even better : Sikah Baladi includes the idea of Hijaz (Kar). This small extract could contains,
potentially, five genres! This is about concept, not concrete execution ...
| Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z | Regarding the B to bd interval, this is certainly not common.
But...
This would be a touch of Mahur I believe.
Mahur is Persian originally (=Ajam, Persian).
But in the Ottoman tradition this became a compound maqam, being a mix of Mahur and Rast.
Dimitrie Cantemir writes:
'...makam mahur which employed the secondary scale degrees buselik and mahur.' (Music of the Ottoman Court').
There seem to be two different versions of Mahur today, the Turkish and the Arabic.
The difference is that the Turkish one has two additional notes; Sikah and Awj.
The Arabic one has only one; Mahur (B).
But...
'...MAHUR, is also incorrectly notated by present performance standards. The notation indicates the pitches Puselik and Mahur for the 3rd and 7th
degrees...Musicians...,however invariably perform MAHUR with the same sacle as RAST, i.e., with Segah and Evic as the 3rd and 7th degrees..'
(From Makam, Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music', Karl Signell).
It seems the Arabic version is in the middle, and is described as jins Rast + jins Ajam on Nawa.
[url]http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/rast.html#mahur |
[/url]
Perfect! Nothing to add 
| Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z | Muhammad Qadri Dalal's CD 'Unwonted Maqamat' features this version.
[url]http://www.amazon.com/Syrie-muhammad-maq%C3%A2mat-insolites-unwonte... |
[/url]
I'm currently listening to the CD. The booklet brings to me a new info : Mahur = Rast + Tshahar-gah on G.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Cool
Such an important CD!
This is the only recording of this maqam (at least, a full rendition) on the Arabic oud that I have heard.
...Apart from the Samai Mahur I posted, this is sometimes played at the beginning of a Wasla suite in Rast.
This CD features the piece as 'Samai Rast', at the beginning..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hermana-Luna-Turath-Al-Ensemble-/2608102347...
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David.B
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| Quote: Originally posted by David.B | 04:30
A Bb A G G G, B-b- B B-b- B A A A, c d c B-b- B-b- B-b-, d e-b- d c c
Is this ornament, with such an interval (smaller than a minor second), common for you? |
After this phrase the highest part of the maqam Rast is explored until the note g.
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David.B
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04:53
Bb, A Bb, A Bb c d Bb A-b- G F E-b- D E-b- F G A A-b- (G) (glissando), E-b- Gb F, D F E-b-, C
E-b- D C BB-b- BB-b-
05:02
Descent on the Rast scale from c to C.
| Quote: Originally posted by David.B | 05:04
BB-b- C
E-b- D C, F E-b- D, Gb F E-b-, A-b- G F, B-b- A G, c B-b- A, d
c d c B-b- A G
c d e-b- d c, c B-b- A G, G F E-b- D, D G F E-b- F E-b- D E-b- (grepetto) D C
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My first feeling is to understand the rest on BB-b- as a leading tone to C in the next phrase. But I wonder about
Bastanikar.
"3. Taqsim in maqam bastah nkar
This long improvisation in three parts is characterised b numerous modal ambiguitezs and by progressive construction of the maqam bastah nkar which
does not appear until the end of the second minute. The main maqam is referred to more than it is played, acting as a sort of watermark to which the
musician periodically returns, with discreet touches, between his explorations of other modes such as hijaz, saba, nahawand, tshahar-gah, bayati
..."
Muhammad Qadri Dalal, Unwonted maqamat.
I should listen to this track carefully, but it's too much work, if someone can infirm or confirm a touch of Bastanikar here ...
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David.B
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05:20
E-b- F G A-b- Bb Bb A-b- A-b- G G, G A-b- Bb A-b- G, G+c Bb A-b- F, A G, Bb cb Bb A-b- A-b- G, G A-b- Bb -> cb -> Bb -> cb ... c Bb c d -> c, c Bb cb Bb A A-b- G, c Bb c eb d c c Bb A-b- G, G A-b- Bb A-b- G, G A-b- Bb c d Bb, A-b- Bb c A-b-, G A-b- Bb G F
G A-b- F E-b- F G F E-b- D C
Here we have a modulation in maqam Nirz (Nairuz). The jins Bayyati on G is exploited from G to eb, with a touch of
Saba on G (cb).
Note: this kind of 'chromatic' movement in tremolo Bb cb Bb A A-b- G
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David.B
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05:49
Bb A-b- G F, Bb A-b- G F, Bb A-b- G F, Bb A-b- G
F, Bb -> cb -> Bb, Bb A-b-, A-b- G, G F, F E-b-, D E-b- F G A-b- c Bb, c
A-b- Bb G A-b- F
From 05:46 to 05:58, focus on Bb and F in Ushshaq on G with cb as a touch of
Saba. I deduce this from what's going on previously at 02:00, 02:45 and next at 06:33 on maqam Ushshaq (D).
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David.B
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A quick come back at
00:53 Trill G -> A-b-, touch of Nirz
And now
06:01 A, Rast
06:21 Bb used in the final cadence of the non-metric taqsim
06:34 Rhythm Wahda
06:59 Trill G -> A-b-, touch of Nirz
07:02 Ditto
07:19 Ab, Suznak
07:38 eb and focus on c, Nahawand on c
07:47 E-b-, Suznak
07:53 Trill Ab -> Bb, touch of Kurd on G
07:54 Trill B-> c and Ab, Suznak
08:00 A, Rast
And Finally
| Quote: Originally posted by David.B | 08:00
F G A Bb c Bb Bb A Bb A Bb A (trill) G A G Ab G F G F Gb F E-b- F E-b- F E-b- D
c Bb A G, Bb A G F, G F E-b- D, F E-b- D C
G BB-b- C D (tremolo), F E-b- D F E-b- D E-b- (starts on F, focus on E-b-) D C
This phrase sounds perfect as a cadence : Bb leads to the A, Ab leads to the G and Gb to F. Then a quick emphasis on G (and maybe the 'shrunken'
grepetto on E-b-) before the final cadence. |
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David.B
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I forgot :
At 06:31, I guess it's an "impro". If it's not, please let me know
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David.B
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I'm back to add an interesting reference about Ushshak :
"94- The second (mode) derived from the rast after zankulah,
is the makam 'ushshak for whom my heart was glad.
95- His starting (note) is the first companion,
and then climb all (notes) quickly to the sixth,
96- bring them down to the second note,
and settle down on the third you there now."
The book of generosity in the understanding of modes
by Shams al-Din al-Saydawi
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David.B
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The difference is subtle, but at 00:54 there's a glissando A -> A-b- (not Ab) and at 00:56 the trill is G -> A-b- then F G A
01:19 Glissando F -> G Tremolo on C, CC
06:51 Glissando F -> G C x 3
06:58 Trill A -> Bb + G -> A-b-
I think, what we find here, in the taqsim, is inspired by what we can ear during the last piece.
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David.B
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Finally, I managed to do a cover!
https://soundcloud.com/david-brocard/taksim-rast-george-abyad-cover
Still I've whittled down more than a minute in comparison with the original 
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Rambaldi47
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Awesome! Very close to the original. 
Nate.
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David.B
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Thanks, greatly appreciated
A good thing done, now I'll be able to focus on the recording of and about the Nahda.
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