Mike's Oud Forums
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2
Author: Subject: RAST/GEORGE ABYAD
Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 1111
Registered: 12-14-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 9-7-2011 at 12:10 AM


Hi, back again..
Interesting...
I have a book called 'The Repertoire of Iraqi Maqam' by Rob Simms, it is very good.
The book contains vocal transcriptions and the theory of the Iraqi Maqam. This can be applied to oud and instruments too.
Page 22 in the book mentions two varieties of Rast; 'Rast Hindi' and 'Rast Turki'.
'Rast Turki' has a naghmah modulation of Saba on 2.
This could possibly explain this.
Saba on 2 resembles Nahawand Murassah somewhat too.

I just looked at your description of the notes again..
Another possiblity is a hint of Mukhalef (Iraqi; Segah with flat 3; Gb).
Master Munir Bashir even modulates briefly from Hijazkar to Mukhalef on the third.

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12198#pid82...

Actually...
I had a few listens, and I believe it is a touch of Saba (D).
This seems to help the downward flow to the tonic, and pull the emphasis away from the fifth (the opposite of the Ab)
This note is used in cadences in Hijazkar all the time too (although not Saba here, but functionally the same).

View user's profile View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 9-7-2011 at 03:34 AM


You have a bunch of amazing books that I absolutely must have!

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z  
I had a few listens, and I believe it is a touch of Saba (D).
This seems to help the downward flow to the tonic, and pull the emphasis away from the fifth (the opposite of the Ab)
This note is used in cadences in Hijazkar all the time too (although not Saba here, but functionally the same).


Yes, this is what I call a precadential accidental.

I think it's a mix too :

02:05 Touch of Saba, because the final cadence is far away, the Ab at 02:26 and 02:29 announce the cadence by emphasis on G.

02:45 Qarar on D (DD) and glissando F -> Gb -> F ... Touch of Saba which works in the cadence.

04:08

E-b- F G Ab B c B Ab G F E-b- F G, GG
Ab G F E-b- D
B Ab G F E-b-
c d B Ab B c Ab G Ab B G F G Ab F Gb F (related, but not a trill) E-b- F E-b- D E-b- D C
Ab G F E-b- D D E-b- (tremolo) D C

The Ab is a part of Suznak and the Gb works as a part of the cadence. The rest on C is really close and E-b- sound high.

08:00

F G A Bb c Bb Bb A Bb A Bb A (trill) G A G Ab G F G F Gb F E-b- F E-b- F E-b- D
c Bb A G, Bb A G F, G F E-b- D, F E-b- D C
G BB-b- C D (tremolo), F E-b- D F E-b- D E-b- (starts on F, focus on E-b-) D C

This phrase sounds perfect as a cadence : Bb leads to the A, Ab leads to the G and Gb to F. Then a quick emphasis on G (and maybe the 'shrunken' grepetto on E-b-) before the final cadence.

Also I found two new examples :

05:04

BB-b- C
E-b- D C, F E-b- D, Gb F E-b-, A-b- G F, B-b- A G, c B-b- A, d
c d c B-b- A G
c d e-b- d c, c B-b- A G, G F E-b- D, D G F E-b- F E-b- D E-b- (grepetto) D C

Here Gb appears in an ascending movement with a A-b- ...

The grepetto is complete and matches with the one at the final cadence. So Gb is a precadential accidental.

06:33 Glissando E-b- (Rast) -> E-b- (Ushshaq/Bayyati), 06:39 Glissando F -> Gb, 06:45 Rest on C. Like at 02:45 both uses are intertwined.






View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 1111
Registered: 12-14-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 9-7-2011 at 08:48 PM


The term 'precadential accidental' is an excellent one!
This is a good way to describe these notes.

The Ad is also very interesting, it is quite fast and easy to miss this section.

All I can think is that the Ad functions as the third of Hijaz on F, in the old tuning (like Turkish), like Nahawand Murassah again.

These types of variant tunings and subtlety are more common in Turkish music, but they come up in the Iraqi maqam book too (vocal transcriptions) and in older Arabic recordings.

There are definitly two tunings of the Sikah pitch in this taqsim that vary in context too.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 9-10-2011 at 01:07 AM


I understand what you mean about the A-b-

My thoughts, my feeling to be more precise :

On the 2nd course we have A-b- and B-b- at both ends. It sounds like a shrunken augmented second of A B in the Hijaz jins on G. Also there's a mirroring effect A-b- A l Bb B-b-. Two ajnas fitted togheter with four possibilities (Bayyati, Rast, Nahawand, Hijaz with a shrunken augmented second). But I must confess, this sounds far-fetched ...
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 9-10-2011 at 01:26 AM


03:09 Focus on E-b-, strong presence of maqam Sikah.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 9-10-2011 at 10:41 AM


03:33 Fast descending movement on the Rast 'scale'

03:35 Many qararat, AAb, FF, DD, GG, C, then a sort of chord F A F which seems to be a qarar ameliorated -> Ornaments

03:51 Many glissando Bb -> A. It acts as a 'leading tone' to the G (AMTMP p.591)

03:54 Ab, Suznak

What happens at 04:08 has been treated here :

Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
Now I'm puzzled about the Gb used as a touch of Saba. At 02:00 and 02:45 it's OK, GA uses to make qarar for a specific reason.

But at 04:08 :

E-b- F G Ab B c B Ab G F E-b- F G, GG
Ab G F E-b- D
B Ab G F E-b-
c d B Ab B c Ab G Ab B G F G Ab F Gb F (related, but not a trill) E-b- F E-b- D E-b- D C
Ab G F E-b- D D E-b- (tremolo) D C

And at 08:00 :

F G A Bb c Bb Bb A Bb A Bb A (trill) G A G Ab G F G F Gb F E-b- F E-b- F E-b- D
c Bb A G, Bb A G F, G F E-b- D, F E-b- D C
G BB-b- C D (tremolo), F E-b- D F E-b- D E-b- (starts on F, focus on E-b-) D C

The Gb in red don't belong to Saba. To me it sounds more like a precadential accidental. This accidental is common in Nahawand for example but nothing is written about it in Rast!


04:30

A Bb A G G G, B-b- B B-b- B A A A, c d c B-b- B-b- B-b-, d e-b- d c c

Is this ornament, with such an interval (smaller than a minor second), common for you?

View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 1111
Registered: 12-14-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 9-10-2011 at 04:39 PM


If the 'shrunken augmented second' is too shrunken it becomes Sikah Baladi.
Hijaz should be non-tempered but...

http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/sikah.html#sikah-baladi

In the song 'Shams El Asil' sung by Oum kalsoum, there is a modulation from Hijazkar to Sikah Baladi, very interesting and effective, there is a link on the page.

Regarding the B to bd interval, this is certainly not common.
But...

This would be a touch of Mahur I believe.
Mahur is Persian originally (=Ajam, Persian).
But in the Ottoman tradition this became a compound maqam, being a mix of Mahur and Rast.

Dimitrie Cantemir writes:
'...makam mahur which employed the secondary scale degrees buselik and mahur.' (Music of the Ottoman Court').

There seem to be two different versions of Mahur today, the Turkish and the Arabic.
The difference is that the Turkish one has two additional notes; Sikah and Awj.
The Arabic one has only one; Mahur (B).

But...

'...MAHUR, is also incorrectly notated by present performance standards. The notation indicates the pitches Puselik and Mahur for the 3rd and 7th degrees...Musicians...,however invariably perform MAHUR with the same sacle as RAST, i.e., with Segah and Evic as the 3rd and 7th degrees..'

(From Makam, Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music', Karl Signell).

It seems the Arabic version is in the middle, and is described as jins Rast + jins Ajam on Nawa.

http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/rast.html#mahur

Muhammad Qadri Dalal's CD 'Unwonted Maqamat' features this version.

http://www.amazon.com/Syrie-muhammad-maq%C3%A2mat-insolites-unwonte...

Two examples of the same piece:


Mahur Saz Semaisi.jpg - 163kB



Attachment: phpJUbUMq (67kB)
This file has been downloaded 491 times
View user's profile View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 02:18 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z  
If the 'shrunken augmented second' is too shrunken it becomes Sikah Baladi.
Hijaz should be non-tempered but...

http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/sikah.html#sikah-baladi

In the song 'Shams El Asil' sung by Oum kalsoum, there is a modulation from Hijazkar to Sikah Baladi, very interesting and effective, there is a link on the page.


You give the name of a maqam to my feeling! Perfect, even better : Sikah Baladi includes the idea of Hijaz (Kar). This small extract could contains, potentially, five genres! This is about concept, not concrete execution ...

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z  
Regarding the B to bd interval, this is certainly not common.
But...

This would be a touch of Mahur I believe.
Mahur is Persian originally (=Ajam, Persian).
But in the Ottoman tradition this became a compound maqam, being a mix of Mahur and Rast.

Dimitrie Cantemir writes:
'...makam mahur which employed the secondary scale degrees buselik and mahur.' (Music of the Ottoman Court').

There seem to be two different versions of Mahur today, the Turkish and the Arabic.
The difference is that the Turkish one has two additional notes; Sikah and Awj.
The Arabic one has only one; Mahur (B).

But...

'...MAHUR, is also incorrectly notated by present performance standards. The notation indicates the pitches Puselik and Mahur for the 3rd and 7th degrees...Musicians...,however invariably perform MAHUR with the same sacle as RAST, i.e., with Segah and Evic as the 3rd and 7th degrees..'

(From Makam, Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music', Karl Signell).

It seems the Arabic version is in the middle, and is described as jins Rast + jins Ajam on Nawa.

[url]http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamat/rast.html#mahur
[/url]

Perfect! Nothing to add :bowdown:

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z  
Muhammad Qadri Dalal's CD 'Unwonted Maqamat' features this version.

[url]http://www.amazon.com/Syrie-muhammad-maq%C3%A2mat-insolites-unwonte...
[/url]

I'm currently listening to the CD. The booklet brings to me a new info : Mahur = Rast + Tshahar-gah on G.

View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 1111
Registered: 12-14-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 05:04 PM


Cool:)
Such an important CD!

This is the only recording of this maqam (at least, a full rendition) on the Arabic oud that I have heard.

...Apart from the Samai Mahur I posted, this is sometimes played at the beginning of a Wasla suite in Rast.
This CD features the piece as 'Samai Rast', at the beginning..


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hermana-Luna-Turath-Al-Ensemble-/2608102347...



View user's profile View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 9-12-2011 at 09:26 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
04:30

A Bb A G G G, B-b- B B-b- B A A A, c d c B-b- B-b- B-b-, d e-b- d c c

Is this ornament, with such an interval (smaller than a minor second), common for you?


After this phrase the highest part of the maqam Rast is explored until the note g.

View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 9-17-2011 at 01:13 AM


04:53

Bb, A Bb, A Bb c d Bb A-b- G F E-b- D E-b- F G A A-b- (G) (glissando), E-b- Gb F, D F E-b-, C E-b- D C BB-b- BB-b-

05:02

Descent on the Rast scale from c to C.

Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
05:04

BB-b- C
E-b- D C, F E-b- D, Gb F E-b-, A-b- G F, B-b- A G, c B-b- A, d
c d c B-b- A G
c d e-b- d c, c B-b- A G, G F E-b- D, D G F E-b- F E-b- D E-b- (grepetto) D C


My first feeling is to understand the rest on BB-b- as a leading tone to C in the next phrase. But I wonder about Bastanikar.

"3. Taqsim in maqam bastah nkar
This long improvisation in three parts is characterised b numerous modal ambiguitezs and by progressive construction of the maqam bastah nkar which does not appear until the end of the second minute. The main maqam is referred to more than it is played, acting as a sort of watermark to which the musician periodically returns, with discreet touches, between his explorations of other modes such as hijaz, saba, nahawand, tshahar-gah, bayati ..."

Muhammad Qadri Dalal, Unwonted maqamat.

I should listen to this track carefully, but it's too much work, if someone can infirm or confirm a touch of Bastanikar here ...
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 9-18-2011 at 02:20 AM


05:20

E-b- F G A-b- Bb Bb A-b- A-b- G G, G A-b- Bb A-b- G, G+c Bb A-b- F, A G, Bb cb Bb A-b- A-b- G, G A-b- Bb -> cb -> Bb -> cb ... c Bb c d -> c, c Bb cb Bb A A-b- G, c Bb c eb d c c Bb A-b- G, G A-b- Bb A-b- G, G A-b- Bb c d Bb, A-b- Bb c A-b-, G A-b- Bb G F G A-b- F E-b- F G F E-b- D C

Here we have a modulation in maqam Nirz (Nairuz). The jins Bayyati on G is exploited from G to eb, with a touch of Saba on G (cb).

Note: this kind of 'chromatic' movement in tremolo Bb cb Bb A A-b- G
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 9-24-2011 at 02:26 AM


05:49

Bb A-b- G F, Bb A-b- G F, Bb A-b- G F, Bb A-b- G F, Bb -> cb -> Bb, Bb A-b-, A-b- G, G F, F E-b-, D E-b- F G A-b- c Bb, c A-b- Bb G A-b- F

From 05:46 to 05:58, focus on Bb and F in Ushshaq on G with cb as a touch of Saba. I deduce this from what's going on previously at 02:00, 02:45 and next at 06:33 on maqam Ushshaq (D).
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 10-15-2011 at 02:00 AM


A quick come back at

00:53 Trill G -> A-b-, touch of Nirz

And now

06:01 A, Rast

06:21 Bb used in the final cadence of the non-metric taqsim

06:34 Rhythm Wahda

06:59 Trill G -> A-b-, touch of Nirz

07:02 Ditto

07:19 Ab, Suznak

07:38 eb and focus on c, Nahawand on c

07:47 E-b-, Suznak

07:53 Trill Ab -> Bb, touch of Kurd on G

07:54 Trill B-> c and Ab, Suznak

08:00 A, Rast

And Finally

Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
08:00

F G A Bb c Bb Bb A Bb A Bb A (trill) G A G Ab G F G F Gb F E-b- F E-b- F E-b- D
c Bb A G, Bb A G F, G F E-b- D, F E-b- D C
G BB-b- C D (tremolo), F E-b- D F E-b- D E-b- (starts on F, focus on E-b-) D C

This phrase sounds perfect as a cadence : Bb leads to the A, Ab leads to the G and Gb to F. Then a quick emphasis on G (and maybe the 'shrunken' grepetto on E-b-) before the final cadence.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 10-16-2011 at 05:41 AM


I forgot :

At 06:31, I guess it's an "impro". If it's not, please let me know :)
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 11-27-2011 at 08:28 AM


I'm back to add an interesting reference about Ushshak :

"94- The second (mode) derived from the rast after zankulah,
is the makam 'ushshak for whom my heart was glad.
95- His starting (note) is the first companion,
and then climb all (notes) quickly to the sixth,
96- bring them down to the second note,
and settle down on the third you there now."

The book of generosity in the understanding of modes

by Shams al-Din al-Saydawi



USHSHAK001.jpg - 116kB
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 8-12-2012 at 05:48 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David.B  


Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
00:56 Trill G -> Ab, so the Ab sketched at 00:54 is more important and l'd like to call it a dunt (AMTMP p.618), but it's not used as a precadential accidental.


I would say it's a touch of Suznak ...



The difference is subtle, but at 00:54 there's a glissando A -> A-b- (not Ab) and at 00:56 the trill is G -> A-b- then F G A

01:19 Glissando F -> G Tremolo on C, CC

06:51 Glissando F -> G C x 3

06:58 Trill A -> Bb + G -> A-b-

I think, what we find here, in the taqsim, is inspired by what we can ear during the last piece.

View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 4-11-2013 at 10:50 AM


Finally, I managed to do a cover!

https://soundcloud.com/david-brocard/taksim-rast-george-abyad-cover

Still I've whittled down more than a minute in comparison with the original :shrug:
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Rambaldi47
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 188
Registered: 4-6-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 4-13-2013 at 11:33 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
Finally, I managed to do a cover!

https://soundcloud.com/david-brocard/taksim-rast-george-abyad-cover

Still I've whittled down more than a minute in comparison with the original :shrug:

Awesome! Very close to the original. :buttrock:




Nate.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
David.B
Oud Junkie
*****




Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: Renaissance

[*] posted on 4-14-2013 at 05:20 AM


Thanks, greatly appreciated :)
A good thing done, now I'll be able to focus on the recording of and about the Nahda.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  2

  Go To Top

Powered by XMB
XMB Forum Software © 2001-2011 The XMB Group