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Edward Powell
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OUD / SAROD hybrid instrument
This is Ragmakamtar (version #9). Basically it is a combination of an oud and a sarod (with elements of fretless guitar and sitar). I began designing
and building these guys in 2006, and until now I have not been fully satisfied with any of them. But finally, I can happily say that this one really
does it for me completely! Whew......
If you would like to hear test clips made today (DAY 1, completed the instrument today!) - they are roughly made and played, but gives the idea:
1) oud neck (upper neck)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXDM8TEvPQk
2) sarod neck (lower neck)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2gOcczf7IM
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adamgood
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Nice Edward sounds really great! What kind of room are you playing in? Sounds big...got any tiny room sized vids?
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Edward Powell
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Quote: Originally posted by adamgood  | | Nice Edward sounds really great! What kind of room are you playing in? Sounds big...got any tiny room sized vids? |
hahahaha.... this is our bedroom that I totally re-made last summer. Cleared out all the old carpets and beds and and and... installed a new walnut
floor and huge mirrored waredrobe, and the ceiling is really high. . . . I LOVE practicing in this room.
I will record some test clips tomorrow in a smaller room. Are you curious to hear how the instrument sounds in a more dry situation?
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corridoio
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Hi Edward,
to me both has beautiful, deep sound, I'm curious to see photos!
Did you used just one long bridge for both?
Also I didn't see the usual sympathetic strings on the side
Ale
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by corridoio | Hi Edward,
to me both has beautiful, deep sound, I'm curious to see photos!
Did you used just one long bridge for both?
Also I didn't see the usual sympathetic strings on the side
Ale |
Hi Corridoio
...thanks so much! I am also really satisfied.
Do u use facebook? I documented the whole build with fotos on facebook http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150289121049639.337487.7...
I am really lazy to upload fotos onto forums these days - it is so much work. . . . unless someone can explain to me an easy way?
Yes, just one long fixed bridge for both --- the bridge is extremely minimal. I just cancelled the sympathetic strings - - and I made the whole
instrument as light and minimalistic as possible..... I am sure that this has a lot to do with the richer tone of this model. Light is Bright!!!
Let me know if you can get to the facebook fotos.
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corridoio
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seems I can't open the link, anyway I just asked you friendship there so this should resolve the problem
minimalistic and light seems always a great thing when it comes to instrument acoustics
ale
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by corridoio | seems I can't open the link, anyway I just asked you friendship there so this should resolve the problem
minimalistic and light seems always a great thing when it comes to instrument acoustics
ale
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yes that's right - those fotos are set to friends only.... probably i will keep it that way since this is pretty personal material - so please anyone
else, just send me a friends request, I always accept them from everyone unless it is obviously spam...
- - - I think the more I learn about acoustics, the LESS I actually understand. For example, light is usually the best, but some instruments are
REALLY heavy... like sarod! and it sounds amazing!
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adamgood
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Ha ha I imagine that's a very enjoyable room to play in! Yes please find the crappiest room imaginable 
The sarod neck is craaaaazy! What can you tell us about it? Wood fingerboard?? Metal strings? What kind of strings are you using? Simple guitar or
something more specific? The sustain is very impressive.
| Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell | | Quote: Originally posted by adamgood | | Nice Edward sounds really great! What kind of room are you playing in? Sounds big...got any tiny room sized vids? |
hahahaha.... this is our bedroom that I totally re-made last summer. Cleared out all the old carpets and beds and and and... installed a new walnut
floor and huge mirrored waredrobe, and the ceiling is really high. . . . I LOVE practicing in this room.
I will record some test clips tomorrow in a smaller room. Are you curious to hear how the instrument sounds in a more dry situation?
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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| Quote: Originally posted by adamgood | Ha ha I imagine that's a very enjoyable room to play in! Yes please find the crappiest room imaginable
The sarod neck is craaaaazy! What can you tell us about it? Wood fingerboard?? Metal strings? What kind of strings are you using? Simple guitar or
something more specific? The sustain is very impressive.
[/ rquote] |
Crappiest room? That should not be hard to find ) !
Yeah I discovered a few tricks to get the sound I want from the sarod neck... of course the fingerboard must be harder than ebony (I use trespa which
is a mix of synthetic resin and paper). Standard sarod strings (steel and bronze for the thicker ones). The trick is playing on the fingernails and
using an extremely hard pick.... also, like an oud, the strings are very thin and tuned quite slack - - - it took me many years to undo my
guitar/sitar conditioning which says "heavier strings, and higher tuning, and higher action = best sound"! I now go for just the opposite: thin
strings, low tuning, low action (but the sarod has Everest action like all Indian instruments)
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charlie oud
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Lovely work and sound Edward. I think a single neck 'Saroud' would also be good, may be with steel fingerboard. Quite frankly the sarod is a beast in
terms of weight and no teacher will take me seriously unless I sit cross legged on the floor, which I find uncomfortable and unnecesary. Became tired
of cultural police.
The left hand nail technique is beatiful for raga.
congratulations on your great work.
Best Wishes, Charlie
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by charlie oud | Lovely work and sound Edward. I think a single neck 'Saroud' would also be good, may be with steel fingerboard. Quite frankly the sarod is a beast in
terms of weight and no teacher will take me seriously unless I sit cross legged on the floor, which I find uncomfortable and unnecesary. Became tired
of cultural police.
The left hand nail technique is beatiful for raga.
congratulations on your great work. |
Thanks my friend... I totally agree about 'cultural police' - - -
you mean, to make instrument with just the sarod neck, leaving off the oud neck entirely? ...primarily as a way to have a sit down instrument that is
not so heavy? ...sure, this is easily possible - just depends on which note you want as "Sa", and what scale length you are used to etc etc... I'm
glad you like the sound 
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em.20
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I can't understand the different sound from the lower and the higher neck because both share the same soundbox?
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by em.20 | | I can't understand the different sound from the lower and the higher neck because both share the same soundbox? |
you mean you can't understand how it is possible to get such a radically different tone from the same instrument???
Well, in terms of frequencies, I realised that the oud and sarod share the same range except an oud goes down one more octave lower - so an oud's
soundboard theoretically should reproduce a sarod's range very well.
BUT when you are dealing with a multistringed double neck instrument the danger is to overload the soundboard and body with too much extra weight and
tension - which would cause the soundboard not to function optimally... so I kept the stringing to a minimum (notice oud only 9 strings - sarod only
6), and all extra wood off...
After that it is only a question of the sarod having a different fingerboard, strings, mizrab, and playing technique. . . . that's all
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MatthewW
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Hi Edward- I am impressed with the sound of the sarod part of this double necked instrument. As mentioned, the sarod sound and technique is usually
played using some of the fingernail, is this required on your sarod fingerboard or can it be played with the tips of the fingers like the oud or
guitar? How high is the action at nut and neck join on the sarod fingerboard? How deep did you make the body?
Could you build just the single neck sarod, and what prices are we looking at if possible? cheers buddy- PM me ifyou wish- Matthew
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Edward Powell
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Hi MW... great to hear from you!
yes... absolutely the fingernail is needed for getting this sarod tone - also, I am plucking with a metal wire sitar pick (this is the secret, don't
tell anyone! ooops... it's too late I guess )
but I think if you are patient you could avoid having to reinforce the nail tips with superglue. Without the glue the natual nail wares down quickly
and eventually begins to hurt and be more difficult to make a good contact --- however I think that after a few weeks you would build up toughness in
the skin there and you would not need as much nail and certainly no glue..... but I have never pushed myself completely thru this process... I
always break down and put on the glue.
I can really tell you that I am totally satisfied with this instrument - FINALLY!!! After 5 years of mucking around and being practically certain that
the concept was impossible..... so far I have not had to adjust anything at all --- all bridge hights are 11mm right from the beginning. Neck
angles and FB surface need no adjustments - nothing... and there is no deformation in the SB and necks are not bending forward at all! It sounds
better and better each day! I am SOOOOO tempted to jump in and build another one - this time 65.5cm and in the key of "A".... but I need to restrain
myself and rather focus on improving my playing (especially my oud playing).
All action at nuts is essentially zero - I just get those as low as possible without buzzing. The sarod action at the body (9th fret position on a
61.5 scale SA = A#) is 4 or 5mm. The 4th sarod string really needs this hight, but the higher strings could go down quite a lot however. I just keep
it all high for now cuz it works and feels good to me. The only one possible drawback to the sarod neck is that you can reach the 12 fret position
without having to pull your thumb out from around the back - in order to reach the highest part of the fingerboard.... but this is manageable.
The body is a bit deeper than a regular oud's... about 22cm. I took a lot of care to tune the SB and AIR to Sa and Re komal... it is also
'grabbing' very well at Ni and Dha.... must be strong ni and dha somewhere in the SB.
- - -
A single sarod neck version would be easily possible. I believe I am able to reproduce this tonal effect by tuning the AIR and SB. I can do this by
adjusting the soundhole sizes. It would surely have basically the same sound as this one..... however if you are considering only a sarod neck...
then you might be interested in an experiment which is about to take place. A friend of mine who is an Indian sarod player has been following my work
and asked me to help his with building basically that - a single sarod wood body instrument. He does NOT feel good with big bodies so I suggested to
him to make the body a mini-oud. You see I have this one tuned to SA on octave BELOW anything playable on the sarod --- so my friend is going to try
to build with a smaller body and we will tune it to the SA one octave higher which is the actual lowest note on the sarod - - - - i'm not sure of the
result.... I really don't know.... It might be better or worse... I can tell you my guess. I think it might have a bit more punch in the
mid-range, but perhaps will not sound so big and full... anyhow, at least I am sure the results of this experiment will be interesting for
you...
I would charge 1500 Euro for a single sarod version. This would be built with the same woods as rmtar9 and same decoration level. I would be open to
doing it. I would also be open to building a small one like my friend will try (but there is no guarantee this will work). Thanks for your interest
Matt!
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MatthewW
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Hi Edward, thanks for the info. Please keep me ( and some others here) posted on the experimental smaller sarod you are going to work on for your
friend from Mother India, and though this is not a 100% oud topic the instruments are related in certain ways.
About the fingernails, don't you find having to have longer nails or using superglue and whatever for the sarod get in the way of fingering the oud,
where shorter fingernails seem to be the way to go?
So you use the sitar mizrab! didn't notice that. Have you tried a traditional sarod coconut shell jaba/pick? How about a risha?
cheers MW
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Edward Powell
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Hi Matt
Yes I'll post about the small sarod-oud on this thread.
I use pretty huge super-glue (and baby powered) paste on two fingers and it doesn't bother my oud playing . . . but I don't use the NShamma technique
where he seems to use the nails also... and I prefer a pretty wide oud fingerboard so the glue globs don't touch the other strings. But there is no
problem once you get adjusted.
I feel really comfortable with the sitar mizrab (since I have played sitar for 20 years)... yes, I have used an oud risha quite a lot but find it
totally unsatisfactory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exItmRonRm4 ---in fact this was a point of mega frustration for a long time - and it wasn't until I simply
changed from risha to sitar pick that my sound really started to come together - just here the difference on this clip - same instrument as the
previous but with sitar pick.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9t9dN_OucM
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David.B
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You made it! Congratulations, it sounds very good and definitely better 
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farukturunz
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Congratulations Eddi! Yeah you have finally done it
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Edward Powell
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...and take a wild guess who's bracing design I copied?? 
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farukturunz
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)
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Edward Powell
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...because the idea came to me "why not build upon something that definitely WORKS, rather than starting from scratch in the DARK?"
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rojaros
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This is fantastic. Great sound on both 'instruments' ... amazing!
congratulations!
best wishes
Robert
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Edward Powell
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HI Rob... Thanks for your kind words!
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luan
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How f <b>shoot</b>, man, this is awesome!
The Sarod sounds awesome! Do you use your fingernail to play in the fingerboard?
Congratulations!
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