| Pages:
1
2 |
oud.sounds
Oud Lover
Posts: 13
Registered: 11-9-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Oud ornament
Hello,
As many people here I started oud about 3 months ago.
Started with Marina's method and I am going ok right now.
Anayway, I have an issue with the ornament of oud music. How to fill the melody between notes? I tried to look at lots of videos but obviously,
ornament is done very fast and it is quite tricky to see how the work is done.
Is anyone aware of videos/document how to implement these advanced puckling features?
Thank you.
|
|
|
DoggerelPundit
Oud Junkie
Posts: 141
Registered: 7-28-2010
Location: Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Odar
|
|
Hi O.S. - Welcome to the forum!
If I'm correctly understanding your question, I think you are referring to the technique "çarpma" (Turkish - pron. charp-mah. i.e. to hit)
This is the grace note, or series of grace notes, attached to melody notes, a held note, or in between each note of a series—say, in a taqsim.
There is infinite variation on this and it might be called a part of the soul of Turkish and Armenian styles. In my (limited) experience, I hear less
of it in Arabic style.
I'll try to describe my exercise for this...hmmmm).
On the second string, strike the open string once downward with the risha. Immediately finger the second position ("B" in Turkish tuning, "F" in
Arabic) with your index finger. This is known many places as a "hammer-on." So, you have just made two notes with one strike. Next, lift your index
finger and strike the open string again, then repeat the "hammer-on" with your index finger. Note: depending on how you want your styling, you can
make your second strike an up stroke and alternate down/up/down/up/down/up etc. from the start. Or, you can make them all down strokes.
Keep at doing this over and over as slowly and steadily as possible. Never do it faster than you can do it without mistake. Over time your speed will
increase until the sound of it shifts into an actual clean grace note between each picked note, just as you have seen on those videos. Note: I have
seen and heard it used two ways—with a tone sounding for the grace note, and with the grace note damped, and just sounding as a sort of punctuated
stop.
From there, you start fingering notes with your first, second, and third fingers, and using your second, third, and fourth fingers to make the grace
notes. (Armenian styling involves doing this with the third finger as much as possible, even on notes only one position apart). In time you will be
able to apply this technique anywhere on the neck on any string, and work it into the melodies you play. Your listening will point you to where and
how. Best of luck.
If I have misunderstood your question.....nevermind. 
-Stephen
|
|
|
oud.sounds
Oud Lover
Posts: 13
Registered: 11-9-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hi,
Thank you for your reply. Let me time to digest it and I will comment.
Regards.
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Aside from the obvious Tremolo, there's another one, I don't know it's name, where after playing a fretted note, you slip/roll your fretting finger
off the strings, so the open strings then sound as the main note. It gives a very specific effect. All these techniques are like the baroque
ornamentation on the lute and harpsichord, in that they lengthen and fatten up the otherwise plain and short notes of the pluck.
|
|
|
oud.sounds
Oud Lover
Posts: 13
Registered: 11-9-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thank you both of you for your inputs.
I finally tried to analyze mike ouds videos and conclude that the main ornament techiniques are based on a mixture of HAMMER-ON and short vibratos
(tripplets for example). The issues here is that it is quite difficult to see it on videos beacuse of the video resolution and also because it is done
very fast. Anyway, if anyone knows about videos that implement these techniques showing it in slow and fast mode I will be pleased to look at it.
If my point was not understood I was talking about shown in the vide below at 00:00:5 :
http://www.mikeouds.com/video/edu/educational05.rm
Thanks a lot.
|
|
|
littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
Member Is Offline
Mood: high
|
|
never ask a magician for his secrets! 
|
|
|
oud.sounds
Oud Lover
Posts: 13
Registered: 11-9-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
I prefer a magician than is surprising you even though you are sure to know all about him... ;-)
By the way, do you know the name of the magician?
|
|
|
littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
Member Is Offline
Mood: high
|
|
joking aside, there are a couple of factors playing into 'good' ornamentation. the first is skill. not only the skill of hammer-ons, tremolos,
vibrato, etc, but also the skill of playing note-by-note, in tune, in time, without any fancy bits added. this is more difficult than it sounds and is
essential to master before developing any sort of ornamentaion.
the second is personality. ornamentation is a deeply personal thing, and no player can truly copy another player. to develop good, personal, soulful
ornamentation takes years of perfecting risha- and left-hand technique, knowledge of theory, creativity and soul.
i strongly suggest to practice playing in a disciplined and uncluttered manner and to study written pieces and maqamat untill you can play them
without mistakes when half asleep. ornamentation will folllow naturally.
|
|
|
naddad
Oud Maniac
Posts: 87
Registered: 6-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I think DoggerelPundit is talking about this technique which you can see at 00:06 in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suIN4K5uIYE
|
|
|
DoggerelPundit
Oud Junkie
Posts: 141
Registered: 7-28-2010
Location: Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Odar
|
|
Thanks Naddad, Just so, and best seen and heard at the multiple "held" notes in the taqsim.
A Necati Celik example of this in use by all fingers and integrated into the melody is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5DlMsA0cw
Oud.sounds, you mentioned triplets. Necati's exercise for these is as follows:
Beginning on the open first (highest) string, play -down / up / down-, and also -up / down / up-. These three notes are played as a unit, with some
space in between each set of three. As before, slowly at first and with a relaxed wrist. Speed will come. (you can see him using this in the video
linked above). I heard him say that both "down" beginning and "up" beginning patterns were necessary, so they could be done from wherever your risha
might be just before.
After accurate triplets can be played on all 6 courses, the left hand can move in to provide different note patterns. He also gave the same method for
4 note patterns, i.e. -down / up / down / up-, and -up / down / up / down-
-Stephen
|
|
|
DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Littleseb's comment is very important.
It's very easy to jump to putting in a lot of ornamentation before you've mastered good tone and got the confidence to let a note ring. It's a bit of
a diversion strategy to try to cover up poor technique and "feel" with too many notes. If you can play simply and with confidence, ornamentation will
actually follow quite naturally, and, if you record yourself and listen back, you'll find it sounds much better playing simply with confidence and
feeling, than neurotically packing in grace notes to hide the fact that the basic technique and feel for time aren't there.
I know, I've done a lot of the latter.
|
|
|
naddad
Oud Maniac
Posts: 87
Registered: 6-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by DaveH  | Littleseb's comment is very important.
It's very easy to jump to putting in a lot of ornamentation before you've mastered good tone and got the confidence to let a note ring. It's a bit of
a diversion strategy to try to cover up poor technique and "feel" with too many notes. If you can play simply and with confidence, ornamentation will
actually follow quite naturally, and, if you record yourself and listen back, you'll find it sounds much better playing simply with confidence and
feeling, than neurotically packing in grace notes to hide the fact that the basic technique and feel for time aren't there.
I know, I've done a lot of the latter. |
That's a great advice, I've also experienced it when I was learning guitar.
I'm currently at the stage where I still can't play 100% accurately and am falling into that ornamentation trap. I think we do this to spice up our
play a bit because otherwise it gets boring...
|
|
|
oud.sounds
Oud Lover
Posts: 13
Registered: 11-9-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hi,
Naddad, Thank you for the video, it was quite interesting.
DoggerelPundit, thank you for the tripplets information. Concerning tripplets, I learned about it for first time from Marina Toshich's book (The
Basics of Oud) where she explains that the tripplet should be done:
Down - Up - Down Down - Up - Down
She explains (according to what I understood) that first note should be "down" to give it more power to it where the next Up and Down should be played
softer. Is there any contradiction between the 2 methods or is it according to the feeling of the player?
LittleSeb and DaveH, I completely agree with you concerning the importance of building a strong basis. In general I don't switch to complicate stuff
until the base is not done properly. My question about ornament was maybe because I am a bit curious about how complicated things are done (I have
difficulty of hearing music and not understand how it is done ) and also to
break the monotony created by simple exercises. Now, my self-teaching is organized as:
- Learning Makamat and playing it with Oud (Bayat, nahawand)
- Right hand exercise (according to videos on Mike's site)
- Left hand exercise (walking fingers) - I hate that!!
- Melody playing according to my ear - I love that!
Anyway thank you all for your help.
Regards.
|
|
|
Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
Registered: 11-14-2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow yellow
|
|
I certainly recognise and experience the ornamentation trap and the points are very well made here and not to be taken too lightly ... but there is
another thing to consider and that is to develop both in practice, because the thing about 'ornamentation' is it is a bit misleading as a phrase
because it implies something that is decorated ... as an afterthought.
Really succesful 'ornamentation' to me is about texture, grain, tonality, personality, passion, feeling, interpretation, flow etc etc. It is also
about the sheer enjoyment of playing and it is just as easy to lose sight of this also. I might describe 'ornamentation' as the exploration of the
voice of the oud (and player) and is a little like taking a magnifying glass with differing powers of magnification to a tone ... the more powerful
the more detail you find.
I think that 'ornamentation' needs loads of practice just to develop the feel and 'roll' under the fingers whilst retaining the tone and flow, and to
develop this in parallel with vey 'simple' technique if possible - they all take their own time to crystalise but I think they inform each other.
All this said, I learnt a lot from my brief meetings with Nizar Rohana and UK udis, which was to never lose sight of the importance of the smple
practice of good risha strike and tonality at its simplest level as this is the basis to develop from. I make sure I check in on this as a matter of
habit - there is always plenty of room to progress.
Cheers
Leon
|
|
|
DoggerelPundit
Oud Junkie
Posts: 141
Registered: 7-28-2010
Location: Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Odar
|
|
Oud.sounds,
"Down - Up - Down Down - Up - Down
She explains (according to what I understood) that first note should be "down" to give it more power to it where the next Up and Down should be played
softer. Is there any contradiction between the 2 methods or is it according to the feeling of the player?"
Though the two are different rhythmically, there is no contradiction in this sense that I can see. All are useful.
I'm not sure, though, I would call her pattern a triplet. Played as above and at speed, there would need to be a rest between the ending Down and the
beginning one. Otherwise, at speed the two downs would run together resulting in a continuous figure in 3/4 time. Try it.
Further, if you add an "up" at the end of Marina's phrase and maintain her stress on the first down, you will have a continuous figure in malfouf. I
hear this a lot in Armenian style, particularly from Richard Hagopian.
"- Left hand exercise (walking fingers) - I hate that!!"
I feel your pain. Years ago in one of John Bilizikjian's master classes, he was strongly advocating we all practice all the western scales, including
the full chromatic from the open sixth string to the rose position on the first course. A lot of work that, and I was balky. I asked how that would
possibly fit with the maqam system (who says folks are born with any sense?!). He blandly replied "how will you know where the koma notes and quarter
tones are if you can't accurately play the whole and half notes you're used to?" To which there was, and is, no answer but practice.
We may be our own worst enemies in the oud journey from slavery to freedom. Much good advice is showing up from others here who seem to have conquered
this. Good luck and play on!
-Stephen
|
|
|
DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Leon, you are the yoda of the oud!
|
|
|
oud.sounds
Oud Lover
Posts: 13
Registered: 11-9-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Stephen and Leon,
Thank you for you detailed inputs. I think that I got the general idea of that post:
"Start from the beginning!".
This discussion was very fruitful to me.
Thanks to all.
Regards.
|
|
|
Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
Registered: 11-14-2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow yellow
|
|
yodaudi or udiyoda ?
Leon
|
|
|
naddad
Oud Maniac
Posts: 87
Registered: 6-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It would be fun and pedagogical if someone could post a video of a taqsim or song played plainly, then played with some ornaments, and then played
with lots of ornaments.
Anyway, how's your progress oud.sounds?
|
|
|
oud.sounds
Oud Lover
Posts: 13
Registered: 11-9-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hello naddad,
I like your idea. I think that the maqam videos on that site are close to what you request.
The player plays simply at the beginning andthen adds some ornaments...
Thank you for taking care about my progress. I will answer in another post.
Regards.
|
|
|
naddad
Oud Maniac
Posts: 87
Registered: 6-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DoggerelPundit | Thanks Naddad, Just so, and best seen and heard at the multiple "held" notes in the taqsim.
A Necati Celik example of this in use by all fingers and integrated into the melody is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-5DlMsA0cw
Oud.sounds, you mentioned triplets. Necati's exercise for these is as follows:
Beginning on the open first (highest) string, play -down / up / down-, and also -up / down / up-. These three notes are played as a unit, with some
space in between each set of three. As before, slowly at first and with a relaxed wrist. Speed will come. (you can see him using this in the video
linked above). I heard him say that both "down" beginning and "up" beginning patterns were necessary, so they could be done from wherever your risha
might be just before.
After accurate triplets can be played on all 6 courses, the left hand can move in to provide different note patterns. He also gave the same method for
4 note patterns, i.e. -down / up / down / up-, and -up / down / up / down-
-Stephen |
That's a great video Stephen, thanks a lot. Lots of carpmas indeed. I've been looking for a lesson for this technique but haven't really found any.
I'm trying to slow down the technique to to see what's going on and have uploaded a short video. I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing and
would love to hear everyone's comments.
In the video I start with a descending melody with no ornaments. Then I play the same melody by adding the carpma technique for each note.
So, are the grace notes correct? The right hand doesn't show, but I'm always hitting a down stroke on the first note, hammering the second note, and
downstroking the third, just like you described in your post. Of course, the whole exercise should be played faster, but I will practice it.
Here's my slow and sloppy attempt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24rI1E53hVU&feature=youtu.be
In the Necati's video there's a nice run at minute 1:49 to 1:53 that might be a good exercise to practice as well.
By the way, I didn't understand what the triplets technique is, could you point to specific time in the video where it's illustrated?
Thanks
|
|
|
DoggerelPundit
Oud Junkie
Posts: 141
Registered: 7-28-2010
Location: Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Odar
|
|
Hi Naddad,
You appear to have done it! The hard part first too, using all fingers. All you need now is lots of slow, relaxed practice. I would also suggest
practice on open strings using the first, second, and third fingers plus other finger combinations you may see being played. Good work!
As for triplets, Necati moves so fast it is sometimes difficult to tell if he is using 3 notes or 4. A better video of him on this is here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNz7s-loLDc&feature=related
He begins a piece at 3:28 and uses this technique clearly at 3:34 and 3:39, and later (and be sure to see the later same passages in the piece where
he doesn't use it). His right hand appears to be using down/up/down. He used to stress practicing all four combinations as described above.
Whether you start with an up or a down depended on where you wanted the risha for the next note after the figure.
I hope Oud.sounds is doing as well.
-Stephen
|
|
|
naddad
Oud Maniac
Posts: 87
Registered: 6-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks DoggerelPundit.
I still feel unsure whether it's going to sound right when played at the right speed. When I practice it slowly it doesn't sound right to me.
By the way, is there a short and easy "etude" I can practice instead of just playing dull exercises? It's so hard to find oud learning material on the
web. I'd love to see a video of someone playing the technique slowly then at the normal speed.
|
|
|
oud.sounds
Oud Lover
Posts: 13
Registered: 11-9-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
News...
Hello Naddad and Stephen,
Sorry for the late answer. I saw you messages but I wanted to create a video also to show you the progress. Here is it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bxb2ey4_kQ
Please don't pay attention about my seriousness it it because I am so concentrated. In the life I am less serious than that )
Stephen, thank you for taking care about my progress. It is going up and done. Sometimes I think I really progress and other I say to myself that the
way to a good play is still far away.
Looking at such maestro videos like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsrPBNmh5Qk
is hurting me. It is so beautiful on the one hand but so difficult on the other hand... I know for sure that I should always go back to very simple
exercises to be able to stabilize my play.
Naddad, I got you U2U only today. I did not see that each time I came to this site I was not logged in.
Your exercice sounds good and I think you are on the right way. You have problem of speeds but I do think that your play is clean (You don't miss
strings like I sometimes do). Also, you oud has a very nice sound in my opinion.
Concerning the tripplets, as I spoke about previously is generally speaking the fact to pluck the same string 2/3 times with different pressure force.
This is actually the ornement I was looking at the beginning. This fills the blanks between 2 different notes.
Hope to hear from you soon. Again don't be afraid to criticise my playing!
See you.
|
|
|
naddad
Oud Maniac
Posts: 87
Registered: 6-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Looking good oud.sounds! What kind of oud is this? The rosettes have an Iraqi style, am I correct?
Glad you liked the sound of my oud (it's a Shehata by the way). The carpma exercise I posted is hard for me to play even at slow speed. I really need
someone to show me, maybe in a video, how to slowly build up the speed and how the final effect sounds.
DoggerelPundit, regarding carpmas, I noticed a few days ago that the technique is pretty much absent in traditional Arabic music (Sunbati, Farid,
etc...), and much more heavily used in Turkish taqsims. (Naseer Shamma uses it a lot but I don't consider his music traditional). Is this a correct
observation in your opinion, or am I just not hearing it in traditional music?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
