permanentnovice
Oud Lover
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Concerned about a Fake 212
Hey all,
I just bought a brand new Sukar 212, and I've noticed some things about it that made me a little worried. For one, the strings buzz a lot - the wing
nut inside doesn't adjust the neck tension in any way that I can tell, and the sound holes are positioned differently than the one on the Arab
Instruments website.
It's got the certificate inside, an everything looks legit, but I'm not sure. Can you guys take a look at this website and tell me what you think?
This is the dealer I bought it from.
http://www.palmyrami.com/index.php?option=com_jshopping&task=pr...
Again, I don't know much about ouds. the strings look old, like they'd been played in the shop, but before I go through changing the strings I want
to make sure I got the oud I paid for...
Thanks
Joe
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Zulu
Oud Junkie
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-21-2004
Location: Austin, Texas
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We can't tell you if the one you have is a real Sukar until you post a few pictures of the actual oud you have in hand. Be sure to post pictures of
front, back and various close ups.
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ExtreamTarab
Oud Junkie
Posts: 185
Registered: 8-31-2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
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Hey Joe,
The oud you got does not look fake, I would say it's %100 genuine...
For the buzz, you'd maybe need to raise the action. You could try by 1st raising the strings on the bridge, not sure if I could explain this but I'll
try. you pull the string up very close to the bridge so you get a little more action. Also, you can raise the action from the the wing nut inside.
Sometimes the neck body joint has more glue than what will allow the neck to move and the action to change, you can help by pushing on the neck a bit
to and give it a push so the action can raise...
Hope this is helpful, I'll try to explain more if you need
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permanentnovice
Oud Lover
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Thanks - the pictures on the website look exactly like the ones I have, but I can post pictures if you think it would help.
The position of the soundholes on the 212 on the Sukar website aren't anywhere near what they are on the oud on the Palyrami website.
Compare http://www.oudsukar.com/New/products/1279631742_212.jpg (the sukar site) to the links above.
For raising the action, I tried to loosen the wingnut, but all it did was come off the screw. It apparently is as loose as it gets.
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ExtreamTarab
Oud Junkie
Posts: 185
Registered: 8-31-2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
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Mood: ...Lessa Faker...
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The oud is the same as the one in the website, they just have different pick guards and maybe that's why you think the soundholes are different but
they're not...
Well yes, since the wingnut comes out completely with the neck not movnig then my guess would be that there's too much glue holding the neck to the
body. I would try raising the action from the bridge 1st, if that doesn't help then you can push the neck a bit forward and get it just a little
loosened and then tighten the wingnut to the desired action...
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permanentnovice
Oud Lover
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Pushing on the neck like that makes me nervous. I've tried a little bit of pressure, and I can feel the wing nut tighten as I do it but it always
kind of goes back to where it was originally. Am I doing it wrong?
As far as raising by the bridge, is there a video out there that shows how to do it? I can't get a good mental picture of how to do it from your
description (but thank you!!)
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
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It's really easy :
-loosen one string
-pull this string with your right hand just in front of the bridge, up to the upper surface of the bridge
-hold the string, and at the same time tighten the string with the peg using your left hand.
-if once is not enough, you can do it again until the string has raisen enough
good luck !
Dan
Quote: Originally posted by permanentnovice  |
As far as raising by the bridge, is there a video out there that shows how to do it? I can't get a good mental picture of how to do it from your
description (but thank you!!) |
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SamirCanada
Moderator
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Hello friend,
Your oud is most probably not a fake Sukar oud so if I were you I would relax about having been cheated in that sense. All ouds no mater if they are
500$ or 3000$ must be properly set up and adjusted.
I recomend taking your oud to an experienced player or a oud maker in your area which would know how to set up the instrument properly. You are
coming to some rather hasty conclusions about the instrument you have received without having the knowlege to properly evaluate it.
One thing you have to know is that ouds are finicky and you need to spend many hours with the instrument to understand how to properly set one up.
Same as any instrument such as a violin or a guitar... would you attempt to modify the action on your guitar or a violin by yourself? Reading the
forums is great but you have to be carefull when you read certain things may mislead you or make you think some things, like adjusting the action of
the oud for example, are simple tasks when in fact you risk doing more damage to your oud if you dont know what you are doing.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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permanentnovice
Oud Lover
Posts: 20
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Hi Samir,
Thanks. I was a little freaked out because I've never ordered an instrument online before, and I'd heard about fake Sukars so when I got it and it
wasn't exactly like I imagined I was a little worried.
I live about an hour east of Kansas City Missouri, and I can't find anyone around here who would be able to set up my new oud. Do you have any
recommendations for anyone in my area?
Thanks again everyone you've all been great helps.
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Sam
Oud Junkie
Posts: 375
Registered: 3-23-2009
Location: Cairo - Egypt
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Have no worried. typical sukkar brand ouds buzz like hell!!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Nonsense. It's all manageable mechanics. First of all, what are the strings? Do you have a set with copper bass strings? If so, those are useless,
they are "better than nothing" strings they ship with, and there is no point in doing anything until you have normal strings on it. If they are not
the copper junk, then you still don't know what you have. Palmyrami know as much about ouds and strings as the lady down the street. Start out clean.
The best inexpensive strings are Daniel Mari. Get a couple of sets.
Http://ostriemusicsupplies.com/marioud-ar.htm
Or you can get D'Addario J95. Then you have to come to understand what your buzz is, or more importantly what can buzz on an oud. But let's get the
strings sorted out first. Chances are it will be a whole different story with new strings.
And in the process of installing new strings you will learn a lot about your oud.
Oh, I forgot. If you order from Bill Ostrie, in addition maybe get one set of plain unwound strings for the third course? Some people prefer that on
the DD course, it makes a big difference in how an oud sounds, it's a more Egyptian less bright sound. If you have them you can try it. It's less
likely that you'd want to tune it high ff but in case you do, you can also order one of those pairs.
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Zulu
Oud Junkie
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-21-2004
Location: Austin, Texas
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I have a Sukar model 13 and it is a great oud...and it does not buzz like hell; it has a wonderful rich tone.
Your oud will sound beautiful once you get to know it and establish a relationship with it.
Don't be too concerned about the design; mine varied from old photos as well...like most artists he changes design details occasionally.
The first bit of advice that cannot be ignored is changing the strings...don't even attempt to play the strings that came with the oud...it would be
like driving a beautiful Ferrari but not changing the flat tires and using cheap gasoline!
Let us know how things go after the first step; changing the strings.
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permanentnovice
Oud Lover
Posts: 20
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I put a set of Pyramid orange on them, because I already had 2 sets. The oud sound is a lot better, but there is still buzzing going on both at the
top of the neck near the pegs and somewhere near the bridge at the bottom.
If anyone knows an oud luthier near Kansas City, I would really like to take it to someone. There is one guy nearby who had some knowledge but I
haven't heard anything about his reputation.
The wing nut still does not help me adjust the level of the strings, even after I tried multiple times to move the neck with my hands.
The sound appears to have a nice resonance, but if it stopped buzzing it would sound wonderfully clean. Some of the lower strings seem to buzz
against each other in pairs, as well
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
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Can you post pictures of :
-the strings in the pegbox
-the nut
-the bridge
it will help to clarify your problems
Dan
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permanentnovice
Oud Lover
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Hey, I've uploaded some pictures. If these aren't good enough, please let me know.
Thanks.
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
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Your pictures are too small 
Seriously, you should first cut the string ends at the bridge, they are far too long.
If the buzz persists, you can do the same in the pegbox (it's not clear from your picture that something is wrong up there).
Sometimes also the buzz comes from bass string between the nut and the peg, you could put a small piece of tissue between the string and the pegbox
side.
The nut seems ok.
If all this does not work, where does the buzz seem to come from, is it high or low frequency, is it only for open strings ?
Dan
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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I'm not crazy about the look of that nut. It's not a very "typical" Sukar job. We all know that there's no such thing as standard anything in the oud
world, but I've seen a number of Sukars, and have never seen a nut fitted like this (see images below). The REAL question is how well it works. You
don't say whether the buzzing is on open strings or fingered or both, what happens if you mute which courses, and then if you mute individual strings.
There are so many possible sources, including the soundboard bracing and the pegbox. You need to more fully analyze and describe your buzzing.
As to the bridge, the second string on the second course should be redone, you can't have true intonation that way. Your loops on the wound strings
aren't great either. Ideally a string should be hanging from the edge of the bridge on a single loop, and there shouldn't be any twists below the edge
of the bridge, as that throws off the intonation and could buzz.
The neck block wingnut provides a narrow range of adjustment. It's not like a Fadi Matta. If you are unable to get ANY change in the height of the
action between when the nut engages and when it bottoms out, something is wrong.
It's not impossible for a "problem oud" to be sold. It's not even a question of honesty, the Palmyrami people have zero understanding of musical
instruments, they sell pretty wooden things, and you have purchased one. Since your oud seems to have all the right wooden elements, it's likely it
can be made to work.
Hopefully you can find someone local who has worked on ouds or lutes. A guitar tech knows about the bridge, soundboard and bracing; a violin guy knows
about the neck and pegs, but nothing about a braced soundboard.
p.s. your wide images are throwing the whole forum formatting off, you might want to use the standard attachment technique.
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permanentnovice
Oud Lover
Posts: 20
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Thanks to everyone who has responded. I've halved the images so they are still big enough to examine but don't jack up the forum.
I did all of the stringing myself, and it was my first attempt at stringing an oud. I definitely need to re-do it. If there are any good guides out
there on HOW to string one, I'd love to see it. I tried searching around, but unfortunately my Arabic is college-level, and Fusha to boot.
I agree completely about the look of the nut. It looks like a shoddy job; I can see the glue and it just doesn't look right at all. The person in
the violin shop says he's dealt with ouds before and he sounds like it's familiar to him, so I really don't have much of a choice there since nobody
else in the Kansas City area seems to deal with ouds.
I haven't localized the buzzing yet. I can tell that some courses, particularly the lower ones, seem to be buzzing against each other rather than the
neck and the bridge. The intonation of the higher courses gets a little flimsy when I reach the higher part of the neck, but that really could be due
to the poor stringing job I've done. Open strings tend to buzz near the head, though, because that action is really insanely low. My paper-thin
risha barely fits underneath them at the very top near the nut.
So, yes, I have some more analysis to do. Obviously this is not a fake as I feared (I jumped to a conclusion based on my lack of knowledge about how
the oud works, but I'm learning).
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ExtreamTarab
Oud Junkie
Posts: 185
Registered: 8-31-2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
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This might be helpful
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12437#pid84...
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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The action should be very low at the nut. If your risha is really "paper thin" either you need to get a different risha, or y'all have mighty thick
paper in Kansas City, must cost a fortune to mail a letter!
The following numbers are just an initial guideline, everybody has different prefs.
If you can easily slide an elegant (0.011", 0.28 mm) business card around under the strings all the way up to the nut without binding, the strings are
too high.
At the neck-body junction (1/3 of the way towards the bridge) the action should be around 2.5 mm for a more Turkish type sound, i.e. rich growly, some
say buzzy, and around 3.5 mm for a more Arabic sound, i.e. faster attack, cleaner, shorter, more percussive. If it's 2 mm or less it's generally too
low to be practical with most fingerboards made on planet Earth. If it's over 4.5 mm, it's generally too high for Earthlings to play enjoyably higher
up than 1st position.
If you don't have a digital caliper, see what you can slip under the strings without deflecting them:
2 dimes = 2.5mm
1 nickel and a dime = 3mm
1 nickel and 1 quarter = 3.5mm
2 pennies and 1 dime = 4mm
2 Pennies and 1 nickel = 4.5mm
3 dimes and 1 penny = 5mm
You can mute string with little pieces of stiff foam rubber. Start out with all strings muted. Does it buzz? probably not. So gradually unmute strings
and take notes, define what happens when.
Nut rules:
It's very hard to cut and slit a good oud nut.
An ugly nut that works is much much better than a pretty one that doesn't.
Never fall for the "hahaha, a wooden nut" scam. A bone or ivory nut is not necessarily better than a wooden one.
A violin-maker has 4 chances to ruin a nut, an oud-maker has 12.
Next to the graveyard of elephants there is graveyard of luthiers.
Never let anyone tear out the old nut until they have shown you a better one that will fit.
Q: Why is a solid gold oud better than a walnut one?
A: because you can sell the stupid thing, buy several really good ouds and invite all of the Mike's oudies to an amazing party !
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permanentnovice
Oud Lover
Posts: 20
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That's a heck of a lot of great information, fernand! Thanks!
And thanks for the stringing thread. That'll help a lot when I gather up the patience to remove and reset these ones.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
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from looking at your pictues I can give you a couple of pointers for stringing.
1- That is way to much string wound on your pegs. You want about 5 turns on the nylons and 3-4 turns on the wound strings. The strings should be tight
against eachother and never overlap. use a little cofee stir stick or even a risha you dont care for to assist you as you wind the strings.
2- Try to look at the hole in the peg and determine which side of the peg box it is closer to, wound the strings towards the side of the hole that has
more space before it hits the pegbox wall. I always try to wound the strings towards the thick end of the peg because I find it holds better.
3- The strings should be as straight as possible from the peg to the nut, try to avoid angling the strings to much but especially try to avoid strings
from crossing over eachother in and resting on eachother in the pegbox. This will create buzzing in the pegbox.
4- The loops on the bridge are at different length, that is going to mess up your tuning which is compounded the more you play down the neck. I am
especially talking about that nylon G-String at the bridge.
5- If you dont want to change the nut, I sugest rubbing the head of a pencill in the groves of the nut. You can then use a wound string to polish the
grove, like agressive flossing  it will make your wood nut perform much better.
6- the main issue I see with your nut is that it is too low. This will create open string buzzing at the fingerboard. The best remedy for this is to
take an discarded peice of the C-String and cut it the with of the fingerboard at the nut. Slide that nylon string under the strings with the help of
a business card or a reesha all the way up to the nut. This will make tuning easier since it creates an even resting point for all the strings.
after you do this and you still have buzzing, the action may be too low or you may have a loose brace.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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What Samir is suggesting if your nut is indeed too low, which I can't tell from the photo but maybe he can, is to create a sort of pseudo-nut with a
piece of the thinnest (c) string. That would be something like 0.020 - 0.025", so it would set the nut side action to that height, which is pretty
high for my taste, but it won't buzz for sure.
There's a trick on pegs and bridge that I use, it's quite unofficial. Plain strings, especially PVF/Carbon but nylon too, can easily slip on pegs and
in the bridge loop. I rub rosin, the kind you use on a violin/cello bow, on the part of the string that will be in the bridge loop, and on the peg
side too. You don't want it on the nut of course. This keeps the string from slipping and makes the job easier, then at least when the string is
stretching, that's all you have to deal with, it won't be slipping out on the sly. The wound strings don't need it on the bridge loops, but it doesn't
hurt to use a little on the peg side.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Yo, Novice! I tried Samir's suggestion of jamming a piece of thin string up against the nut, and it's a very VERY useful tip. For one thing,
diagnostically it's very helpful, you can isolate some buzzes. It's also a great fix for a low nut, which otherwise would have to be shimmed. This
doesn't even require loosening the strings. Great tip, Samir.
Now, being the compulsive that I am, here's the issue I see with using it as a permanent solution. The timbre of the oud results from many factors,
one of which is the height of the action. If you like the very "Egyptian" sound, you want a rather high action so the notes are very distinct and
percussive. If you like a slightly Turkish flavor, you want the action dangerously low so you get some sizzle and what on a fretless bass they call
"mwah", both of which result from borderline buzz. What some people might hear as a slight but annoying noise, a Turkish oudie considers heavenly.
That's also helpful in shopping for an oud, if you hate high actions, to know that a Turkish oud will generally have a lower action.
The open strings are used a lot on the oud, so the sound of the action at the nut is heard a lot. It has to match. If you raise it with a piece of
nylon string, it should match the effective action further down the fingerboard, or you will have a different timbre on open and fingered strings.
With say a 2.5 mm action at the neck-body junction, you need a very low action at the nut to duplicate the same zingy timbre you get when fingering.
And that works out to something like the business card thickness I was mentioning. I found a 0.015" high ff "mumtaz" nylon and that worked. For a more
"Egyptian" timbre, with say a 3.5-4.0 mm action at the neck-body junction, a piece of typical 0.022-0.025" cc nylon string is more appropriate. So
there.
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SamirCanada
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Yeah your right the high ff strings work much better for this if you have one laying around.
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