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luan
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Playing in tune
Surprisingly, as much as I search, I haven't found any thread that discuss this topic:
How to play in tune and the technique required to do it.
I'm relative new to the oud, and I can tune more or less 75% of the notes I play, however i'm self taught and I don't know how some things are
supossed to be done.
1) When you tune the open strings and then you start to play, you just search for the notes in first position with the first finger, and then you
"lock" the thumb on that place so all the other notes are in pitch?
That seems logic and that is what I've heard, however that doesn't seems to be enough, because when my first finger goes to another string, seems like
the in tune note it isn't in the same place but on another string, maybe it is 1 mm to the left or to the right. I hope I'm being clear here (I'm from
argentina).
2) If I want to play higher in the register, that point where the neck meets the body is the perfect 5th of the open string, but the same things
happens, it's not on the same exactly spot on each string, am I right (again)?
3) If I use the first finger to play an A on the G string for example, I lock the thumb in order to play that on pitch, ok. Now, if I have to play an
Ab, I have to "unlock" the thumb, move my hand a little to the left, and play that Ab, and then return the hand to the "normal position"?
Is there anything I'm doing wrong in each point?
Any suggestions on how to approach this?
Thanks a lot!!
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Marcus
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Hi luan 
Where you heard that you should lock your thumb? That`ll make your hole hand kind of tensed, so relaxed playing is immpossible.
1.
If you dont get the right tone in the same possition, maybe the strings are not proper tuned? A few hz are allready a millimeter.
2. same thing?
3.could you post a photo of what you called "normal position" of your hand? Maybe something is wrong with it. That can make a lot of problems in many
cases, not only with "hit the right tone".
I also hope I'm being clear here (I'm from germany).
Cheers,
Marcus
Playing the oud is like feeding my soul with peace
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fernandraynaud
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Your hearing is the most important. You can easily hear a few cents' error and correct once you play oud for a while. It doesn't hurt to use various
aids to get you oriented initially. One is a tuner that's fast enough that you can watch it as you play. AP Tuner for the PC is free and works OK.
Another is to put marks on strings. I admit I still like to mark my bass string on the player side, so it's not visible from the front, because there
are some days my whole pitch sense shifts, which sounds OK within the oud, but terrible with another instrument tuned ET or whatever. I also like two
little inlays on the neck at the third and fourth. But it's just for orientation, as you're not after fret-like intervals.
The issue of "not in the same spot" has to do with a lot of things, one of them being that perfect intervals do NOT fall on "the same spots", proof in
the fact the circle of fifths does not land on a perfect octave. They do in Equal Tempered, like on a guitar, but those are not perfect intervals, ET
was developed as a compromise where ALL the intervals are a little off. On harpsichords we use different tunings that are perfects in certain keys
only. On the oud you can always correct by a hair, except the open strings. I suspect that most good oud players work entirely by ear and tune the
open strings to perfect intervals, then correct as needed, although chords are not much used, there's still the sympathetic resonance of the whole
string set. There's that wonderful illustration from, what, the 13th century, and it shows the Arabic player playing single note style using a risha,
and the European playing chords with his fingers. I wonder how they sounded together ;-)
I have an oud made in Cairo that has "fretlines" inlaid on the neck. We went through this with Richard here, the "frets" are NOT in ET positions, yet
they work very well, to my surprise.
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littleseb
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hi luan,
couple of things stood out from what you said:
- first of all: when you are on the G string, your basic position is the following: 1st finger Ab, 2nd finger A, 3rd finger Bb, 4th finger B. Stick to
this position untill you can play in tune and feel confident. practise the chromatic scales in this position very very slowly, then gradually build up
the speed.
- your thumb: in this basic position your thumb should be where the neck meets the pegbox. try not to move it, even when playing the 4th finger. this
will feel weird in the beginning, but you will soon get used to it. that way you always know where your fingers should be.
- it is very useful to know exactly where the C is (3rd finger A string). practice maqamat starting with C (Nahawand and Ajam are good to start with
as they don't have quartertones). the F should be on exactly the same spot, but one string up. if it isn't you are probably not tuned correctly.
- don't worry too much about the higher registers untill you are confident in the basic position.
- train your ear. get to know each and every note on the oud. this is a lot easier than you think it might be.
i hope this helps. if anybody thinks I'm talking balls, feel free to correct me.
good luck, let us know how you get on!
Seb
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Brian Prunka
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  |
The issue of "not in the same spot" has to do with a lot of things, one of them being that perfect intervals do NOT fall on "the same spots", proof in
the fact the circle of fifths does not land on a perfect octave.
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Fernand, I don't think these have anything to do with one another. The intervals do fall in the "same" spots, the minor issues of
string diameter and parallax notwithstanding. The relationship of stacked fifths to the octave is irrelevant.
Most likely, either the strings are not correctly tuned or the poster is mistaken when thinking the fingers are in the "same" spot due to the
distortion of perspective when seen from behind the oud.
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fernandraynaud
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I'm not 100% sure of how it all works out, "in the end", but it sure seems to me that the don't (line up). If they did, then why would fretted
instruments ever have been made with staggered frets?
http://home.comcast.net/~dcanright/guitar/
We're talking about small offsets, and of course in the context of Western chords and intervals, like perfect thirds, fifths, etc. It's one of the
beauties of the oud, that we can have any intervals we want. We all know that magic thing that happens when one note is played and other strings
resonate, and that's the feel of perfect intervals. I suspect a good player does it all without even thinking about it.
Also look at what a viola da gamba player is doing:
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luan
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| Quote: Originally posted by littleseb |
- first of all: when you are on the G string, your basic position is the following: 1st finger Ab, 2nd finger A, 3rd finger Bb, 4th finger B. Stick to
this position untill you can play in tune and feel confident. practise the chromatic scales in this position very very slowly, then gradually build up
the speed.
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Does everybody uses this fingering?
It is logic to me, but my teacher told me to use the first finger to play Ab and A, that's why I'm asking 
Fernandraynaud:
I think you are right. I thought about what you said when I made this thread, but I wanted to wait to conclude to that.
I'm a guitarist, and I know the problems of guitar being non tempered. And playing in the same spot on Oud for each string would logically have the
same problem.
I will maybe ask a violinist what he thinks about this.
Thanks a lot!!
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud |
I'm not 100% sure of how it all works out, "in the end", but it sure seems to me that the don't (line up). If they did, then why would fretted
instruments ever have been made with staggered frets?
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That is because harmony in Western music is based on both 3rds and 5ths, not only fifths. Frets tuned to provide fourths/fifths correctly will
not provide correct thirds/sixths.
You are correct that if you tried to tune 13 open strings all in 4ths on the oud that you would wind up with a problem, but I assumed we were talking
about playing an actual oud, not a hypothetical one.
| Quote: |
We're talking about small offsets, and of course in the context of Western chords and intervals, like perfect thirds, fifths, etc. It's one of the
beauties of the oud, that we can have any intervals we want. We all know that magic thing that happens when one note is played and other strings
resonate, and that's the feel of perfect intervals. I suspect a good player does it all without even thinking about it.
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Yes, there are many small offsets used in Arabic music for various reasons, but the difference between notes a fourth apart on adjacent strings in
terms of fingerings is an order of magnitude smaller than the difference between a finger being angled 90º vs. 75º.
My advice would be to find a teacher, this problem is almost certainly due to not having any guidance, and not due to any variation in the actual
location of the pitches on the strings.
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by luan | | Quote: Originally posted by littleseb |
- first of all: when you are on the G string, your basic position is the following: 1st finger Ab, 2nd finger A, 3rd finger Bb, 4th finger B. Stick to
this position untill you can play in tune and feel confident. practise the chromatic scales in this position very very slowly, then gradually build up
the speed.
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Does everybody uses this fingering?
It is logic to me, but my teacher told me to use the first finger to play Ab and A, that's why I'm asking
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Yes, this is the fingering everyone uses. On fretless instruments it's essential to grasp the importance of positions. Oud players tend not to use
specific names, but based on traditional string terminology, Littleseb is describing the "half position": i.e., the position one half-step up from the
open string.
Your teacher is telling you that you also use the first finger for A, because a lot of playing on the oud is in "first position", i.e., the position
one whole step up from the open string. The two are separate, and you need to learn both, but the basic idea of one finger per half step is
sound.
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luan
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Thanks man!
I was already using those two positions, each one for each maqam when it was more appropiate.
I can play in tune, really. My dad is a musician and he is listening to me when I practice, and he would definitely notice if I play something out of
tune, and I realize when I do that.
It's just that when I play an open string and then the 5th of it, there's no way to fake that, you have to play it 100% in tune or it doesn't sound
right, so that is a good exercise to train the fingers and ears!
Is the "second position" used on strings other than the first?
I can play in tune in the first string in all positions (just have to look a little to my hand)
Thanks!!
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Brian Prunka
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Hi Luan,
Second position and higher are mostly used on the first two courses, although they can be and are used on lower courses in some circumstances.
Have you tried playing in front of a mirror? It gives you a more accurate view of your hand and allows you to practice with the correct posture while
still being able to look at your fingers when you need to.
I'll reiterate that very slight differences in the angle of your hand and/or finger will cause dramatic shifts in pitch, so consistency here is very
important in order to assure that you can put your fingers in the same place each time and get the same note.
Regarding "locking" the thumb, you should be able to play without your thumb even touching the oud . . . there shouldn't be pressure or a feeling that
your hand is fixed in place.
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Brian Prunka
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Also, depending how you tune, you might have slight variations in the location of the notes due to equal temperament. In short, fourths are 2 cents
too wide in equal temperament, and as a result, if you tune all your open strings with a tuner you will have to adjust some positions slightly to
compensate. It's not so bad that one can't compensate, but it is a minor issue.
Since in Arabic music we view G as the central note, let's assume G is the tuning reference. If you tune the open strings with a tuner:
c is 2 cents too high. This is nearly imperceptible.
g is in tune
D is 2 cents too low, also nearly imperceptible.
A is 4 cents too low, this is slightly noticable
F is 4 cents too high, this is slightly noticeable (if you tune to G, obviously it is in tune)
C is 2 cents too high.
So in Equal temperament, you will have to shift the fingers slightly to get pure fifths.
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luan
Oud Junkie
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Oh, now I get it!
Thanks a lot man!!!
That is exactly what was happening, since I use the tuner, I have to move my fingers a little in order to get the fifths.
So, you guys recommend to tune by ear?
Thanks again!!
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alim
Oud Junkie
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Brian,
Regarding the ET vs Just Intonation tuning, do you or others tune your oud using JI, if so do you center on G?
I have a tuner app (Cleartone on the iPhone) that claims to do JI,
and has the following Temperaments:
Equal Temperament
Strings: Stretch Tuned Guitar, Violin Family
Pythagorean/Just: Pythagorean, Pythagorean Just, Standard Just Intonation
Mean Tone: ...... a bunch of options ..........
Well Tempered: ...... a bunch of options ..........
French: ...... a bunch of options ..........
I have been using the ET setting, would you recommend any of the other temperaments?
Thanks,
Ali-
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Brian Prunka
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Alim,
I and many others tune our G to a reference, and the rest of the strings to pure fourths by ear.
This is Pythagorean tuning, which is described as well in ancient texts by Farabi, etc.
I cannot speak to the accuracy of specific tuning settings on the "cleartone" tuner, but if you choose Pythagorean centered on G, it should work.
If I was playing with a piano or guitar, I might use the ET setting in order to get a better compromise.
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littleseb
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i tend to use a tuner for brand new strings, but just as a rough guide (new strings can do my head in, sometimes). once they have settled a bit i tune
by ear. i find it easier and more reliable.
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stos
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka |
c is 2 cents too high. This is nearly imperceptible.
g is in tune
D is 2 cents too low, also nearly imperceptible.
A is 4 cents too low, this is slightly noticable
F is 4 cents too high, this is slightly noticeable (if you tune to G, obviously it is in tune)
C is 2 cents too high.
So in Equal temperament, you will have to shift the fingers slightly to get pure fifths.
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hello! I jump ın the topic because I was talkıng about thıs wıth an oudıst here ın ıstanbul about thıs
pythagorean tunıng
he tune hıs oud by ear
but he told on a tuner to do lıke thıs (440 hz ıs just an exemple)
upper strıng 442
440
442
440
bass strıng 440
(wıthout bam)
ıt doesnt fıt wıth your estımatıon
what do you thınk about ıt?
could you explaın why takıng the G strıng as base?
when you talk about "cents" what do you mean?
thanks a lot!
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Brian Prunka
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Stos,
It's confusing to talk about tuning to Hz, because Hz is cycles per second so it's different in every octave, while every octave has 1200 cents.
So if A=880, 440, 220, 110, one A to the next might be a difference of 110 Hz or 440 Hz.
Whereas it's always 1200 cents regardless of what octave you are in.
I would be interested to have your teacher tune by ear and then check with a tuner. I doubt that it will match with what you have outlined here; in
fact I can't imagine how someone would tune that way by ear.
In your example, the interval between the first two strings is very wide. The interval between the 2nd and 3rd courses is pretty good, but the 3rd
and 4th are also very wide. The 5th course depends on what you are tuning it to, if it is all 4ths, it would be one way, if it is an octave below the
2nd course then obviously it should be tuned the same as the 2nd course. If it is a 9th below the 2nd course (as in my example), it is different
again.
Assuming you are using the ABead tuning, the A, e, and a strings would sound good together but the B would be low and the d high. I can't see why
someone would want it that way, and I don't know anyone who tunes that way. Have you tried tuning that way? Do you like the way it sounds? I'm
curious to hear it.
The 2nd course is the base because it is the central pitch or dominant in most maqamat. In Turkish music this would usually be "A", in Arabic music
it is usually "G".
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fernandraynaud
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Cents are 1/100 of a half tone. So the third note of Rast will fall around 50 cents flat from E, and the third note of Ajam somewhere around 20(?)
cents flat from E. Of course it depends on the temperament used, but the concept of cents is very useful.
How close together do people tune a course? Playing oud has sure improved my hearing. I used to have to mute one string in a pair when tuning big
clavichords that have e.g. 60 notes, so 120 pegs. Mercifully, and for reasons that nobody understands, the also all-wooden Clavichords stay in tune
better than most other instruments. Anyway, now I can tune pairs easily without muting a string, and if the two strings are exactly in tune the volume
drops. There are subtle offsets that give different sounds. So how do most roux players approach this?
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stos
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wow thanks for the quıck reply!
Hıs estımatıon was done lıke you saıd : tunıng by ear and the check wıth tuner
but I thınk we made ıt quıck and not very precısely
I thınk ıll try thıs pythagorean free tuner we dıscussed on the forum and see wıth thıs oudıst what he thınks
about ıt
Im sorry beıng a begınner ın makam theory but I had the feelıng that a lot of makams had D or C (for arabıc oud..) has a
tonıc and ımportant note?
but maybe G ıs always there or offen ? ıs that what you mean?
thanks a lot!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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The G is central to both C and D based maqamat. I think they call G the "tonic" of C (Rast) where jazz and rock players would say C is the tonic.
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Jody Stecher
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Test any two tuners made by different manufacturers and you will see that they do not agree. So they can't all be correct. Even were that not true
(and it IS true), tuning tempered music by trusting an electronic device that has no musical sensibilities and no cultural priorities will lead to
muzak, but not to any kind of music that sounds like humans are involved. So using tuners for anything but reference in tempered music is... what
shall we say? ... is SILLY.
Using electronic tuners for anything but reference (to get started, to get G for instance) for modal music is ... what shall we say? ... to call it
"madness" overstates the case.... let's call it "guaranteed to be unproductive. "
For instance to get a real world rendition of Hicaz/Hijaz to correspond to any brand of tuner is bound to be frustrating. How anyone can assume the
machine is right and the musician is wrong is hard for me to understand. Harder yet to understand is asking whether one should place the fingers
where it sounds right. Of course one should. Later as one's hearing gets refined the fingers will adjust in tiny increments.
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RubabPlayer
Oud Maniac
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To be honest fretless scares the hell out of me for the reasons that are being discussed here. I am buying and Oud after long consideration. My
biggest worry is finding a practical and effective way to get used to the note locations and later become able to adapt quarter tones that are so much
a part of our music.
Coming over from Rubab and Setar, it is pretty challenging to think of doing the same without frets. Though I do play off the fret area on the Rubab
finger board.
So here is my question. Is there a proven model that the players here have used to drill these note placements into our heads and hands? And without
local instructors, are there resources out there that the community here recommend to help with this?
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Jody Stecher
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Ears.
| Quote: Originally posted by RubabPlayer |
So here is my question. Is there a proven model that the players here have used to drill these note placements into our heads and hands?
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luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 157
Registered: 11-25-2011
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| Quote: Originally posted by RubabPlayer | To be honest fretless scares the hell out of me for the reasons that are being discussed here. I am buying and Oud after long consideration. My
biggest worry is finding a practical and effective way to get used to the note locations and later become able to adapt quarter tones that are so much
a part of our music.
Coming over from Rubab and Setar, it is pretty challenging to think of doing the same without frets. Though I do play off the fret area on the Rubab
finger board.
So here is my question. Is there a proven model that the players here have used to drill these note placements into our heads and hands? And without
local instructors, are there resources out there that the community here recommend to help with this? |
It's easier than it seems, trust me : )
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