em.20
Oud Maniac
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Registered: 8-27-2011
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Fixing some issues of my oud!
Hello everyone,
I have bought a Turkish oud a half a year ago from Turkey. On the whole I'm happy with the instrument but there are some issues which are annoying me
more and more. I want to fix them myself because the oud is a cheap one and if I pay over hundreds of euros for fixing them, this would not be
profitable. Furthermore I like to do things myself as long as my brain and my senses are working allright. )
1. On the 3th(e strings) and 4th chords(B strings) are buzzing a lot, when I push them on the fingerboard. So, this means, on open strings, I have no
buzzing at all. I've already checked the neck and the angle of it and there are no problems. I can see very small grooves on the fingerboard, so I
assume it is the fingerboard making the problem. So, my question is. How can I fix it? And after fixing it, can I use some sort of oil to treat the
fingerboard?
2. I have a very small crack on the bowl. It does not affect the sound or playability, but it disturbs me so I want to fill it with some suitable
material.
3. There is a problem with tuning. I stringed my oud carefully and in the pegbox, the strings don't touch themselves. But if I tune the wounded
strings, there is like a jump from one note to another and it makes a click sound. So, I cannot tune the oud easily. I dont know where the problem
could be.
I hope you can help me to fix these problems. Thank you!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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I can relate to: "I like to do things myself as long as my brain and my senses are working allright.)"
On 3. The issue is generic, wound strings DO have "steps" because of the windings, so it's only a question of whether the nut can mask it by being
tight around the string. I have one oud that has deep channels on the nut, and that does the trick. But re-working the nut is very very tricky, you
can easily ruin it, so if the nut is otherwise working well, it may be much better to leave it alone and work around the problem. You can lubricate
the nut and string with graphite. You can even use a little paraffin to partially fill the windings, but carefully, rub some candle wax for instance
on the string BEFORE the nut, on the peg side, you don't want paraffin on the sounding portion. Tricky. Old dry white soap can also work, and it's
easier to get off if you put it in the wrong place. But start with some pencil graphite in the nut grooves and on the string, maybe that will make it
a little better, enough to not worry about it. The click usually falls at the same good or bad place, and if you work the string back and forth, and
try to rotate it a little, the jump can reposition to a better spot in tuning.
On 1. Do the strings buzz all along the fingerboard? only in specific positions? If the latter, then the fingerboard could be either grooved from wear
(likely on wound strings), e.g. at Rast, or just not flat. In both cases you most likely need to re-level the whole fingerboard, as filling is not
very practical. You have to sand it down, but using a sanding block so you make a level surface. There are special radiused sanding blocks at a guitar
maker's site like Stewart McDonald that are long enough, but the oud fingerboard is generally flat, so a piece of 2x4" wood can be good enough. It's
not difficult to sand, but it can be hard to do it well. Just work slowly and keep checking with a long metal ruler. If your action is too high, this
is the time to sand it deeper near the nut and lower the nut.
After you've re-leveled it, and sanded it to smoothness, you can coat the fingerboard to delay re-occurrence. There are many ways to do this. Some
like epoxy, others use cyanoacrylate (super glue). Try to find some articles on this, it's very common on fretless electric basses. Both plastics can
provide a little filling on the wood, but generally not enough to skip the sanding stage. It's more trouble than it's worth to try to fill grooving
with a mix of sawdust and glue, because it doesn't stick well to the wood, so unless it's very deep and you have no fingerboard left to sand, making
holes to help the filler hold is a pain. Just level the fingerboard. After a few coats you can steel-wool and buff the coating to a glassy finish if
desired. You have to decide on the substance, these two above I think give a brighter sound than is natural for an oud, especially if polished, but
with a matte surface can probably sound fine. I like a softer surface, and Tru Oil, that's used for rifle stocks, is quite good, and much easier to
apply as well, in fact ridiculously easy. It's really a tough varnish, not an oil (Oil wouldn't help much). It requires refresh maybe once a year,
it's a 15 minute job and some time drying once the strings are off. It too requires several coats and drying/setting time, and finally can be made
glossier or more muted, so you can somewhat control the sound. It's generally an improvement, better sustain; if the fingerboard was so soft it was
quickly grooved, it probably sounded pretty dead too.
On 2. There are many people here much more qualified to help with that one.
Best wishes!
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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Fernandraynaud is right about the dangers of parafin in the wrong place but there's a bigger danger: although "parafin" means candle wax in the USA,
it means what in the USA is called KEROSENE and you probably don't want to put any of that on your oud unless you intend to set it on fire.
Your strings are probably getting caught in the nut grooves. Graphite from an ordinary pencil applied in the grooves usually fixes strings that jump
in pitch and click while tuning. Just rub the pencil point softly in the groove back and forth a few times.
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Jody Stecher
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Whoops, what I meant to say in my previous post was that in the UK and in parts of the world using the British version of the English language
"paraffin" is the same stuff that is called "kerosene" in the united states, and that *this* kind of paraffin will not only remove the squeaks and
jumps in pitch, but also will remove the entire oud and more.
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Danielo
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The issue of clicks with wound strings depends hugely on the type of string used.
For instance, Aquila strings, although good sounding, are problematic in this respect since the winding is quite thick. (Of course if your oud has a
good nut, you can use them without any problem !)
On the contrary, finely wound strings like Pyramids are less prone to this problem.
regards.
Dam
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jdowning
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The slight 'crack' at the bottom of the bowl may just be an example of careless workmanship in joining the ribs over the end block - so is not a split
in the wood. If this is the case then there should be no consequence structurally (or acoustically) - the rib being otherwise glued firmly to the end
block.
It would be possible to fill the gap with a suitable ebony coloured filler to disguise the fault but this would entail first cutting out the glue that
is visible in the gap (without damaging the sides of the adjacent rib), applying the filler, levelling and smoothing the filler once cured and then
invisibly refinishing the area around the 'repair'.
All in all there is some potential for messing up the job and making the situation worse cosmetically.
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em.20
Oud Maniac
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Registered: 8-27-2011
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Thank you guys for the advices!
I will sand the fingerboard down with sanding paper or better with a sandblock. How fine it has to be?
After that I will finish the fingerboard with Tru Oil. Is this the right one? http://www.waffenpflege-shop.de/p163/Schaftoel-Tru-Oil-Naturoel.htm...
The strings I've using are Necati Celik's Turkish Oud Strings or something like that. I want to give the nut a try with pencil graphite. If this does
not work, I will try it with soap.
Can I fill the crack with epoxy or something like that? I don't want to make it worse than it is at the moment. But jdowning, you're right. It does
not affect the sound.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Hi, EM20,
No, do not use a commercial "sandblock". It's too small, and will make an uneven fingerboard. I meant a sanding block: a piece of aluminum extrusion
or wood, nice and flat, at least 20-25 cm long and 5 cm wide, that you can clamp or glue some sandpaper to. The gauge of the initial sandpaper depends
on how deep you have to go to flatten it perfectly. And you work up to a very fine gauge, gradually. Your final passes should be with a very very fine
paper or steel wool. Make sure you have a good metal ruler and you check carefully as you sand. It is very easy to create uneven areas that will
probably make it worse than it is now. A Turkish oud should have very low action, and a very precise fingerboard and nut. The height of the strings at
the nut is typically so low that you cannot slide a business card under them. If you have high and low areas on the fingerboard, such as you would get
for sure if you sand without a long sanding block, it will be unplayable - when you finger a note on a low spot, a raised area will cause the string
to be muted or buzz.
Yes, that is one of the correct Tru Oil types. Thy describe how to finish a guitar with it here:
http://www.lmii.com/carttwo/truoil.htm
In your case you are only coating the fingerboard, keep it off the other parts, especially the soundboard, which should only be finished with
alcohol-based shellac. But read what they say about sealing the wood. You don't want a mirror finish, but you may want to have it well-sealed. I
should add that coating fingerboards is not an oud tradition, it comes from using wound strings on fretless electric bass. But it works quite well.
Where the oud arose, a luthier's services don't cost as much as in the West. The traditional solution is to use ebony or another hard wood on the
fingerboards of expensive instruments, and to not worry about the cheap ones. As a soft wood fingerboard wears, it's easy to get another oud, or have
a luthier re-level it.
On the nut, of course, the graphite will help some. Don't expect miracles, and it doesn't really matter so much. Most ouds don't have deep channels on
the nut, and they click. It's true that some string types are worse than others. And for some reason the 4th course is often the worst, the AA on
Arabic, and BB on Turkish. You already have to twist your arm into a pretzel to reach the pegs, and then it takes vengeance on you by clicking. If you
wind the string back and forth you will usually find a time when it falls on a good spot for your tuning. Yes, I meant candle wax, not naphta.
Personally, I use a little graphite, and then stop worrying about it. Of course it's not ideal, on some strings it can drive you crazy, but you'll go
crazy anyway, and is it worth ruining a nut to try correcting it? If the nut is rough, or the edge is too sharp, you can use a wound string to file it
smooth before applying graphite.
I wouldn't bother on the ribs, but if you really want to do this, don't use epoxy. It's not natural to the instrument, which is likely glued with hide
glue, or maybe an aliphatic resin on the ribs. Epoxy cannot be undone and is very hard. You want something that can be undone, that's softer, will
flex as the wood settles and with humidity changes, and that helps color the flaw. I would maybe try to fill it with liquid hide glue, which can be
removed with heat and water, has a little flexibility, can fill small cracks, and is plenty strong enough for this. It has a golden amber color that
may help with the aesthetics. Another solution is to maybe try a little putty wood filler, it comes in pencil shape, and maybe even just some color
wood touch-up markers to make it look OK. It's really not a serious thing, so make sure you don't create a problem. It's more important that it play
well and retain its character.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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1. Make a flat sanding block longer and wider than the fingerboard. If it is shorter, you might sand a radius into the fingerboard instead of
flattening it. Use a flat surface, like a sheet of plate glass or a granite slab. Place a sheet of 80-100 grit garnet sandpaper on the flat surface
with the grit up, and rub the block on it until it is flat, then mark the surface for reference. Begin sanding the fingerboard with 80 -100 grit
garnet paper, making sure the block is in full contact with the fingerboard at all times. No need to apply a lot of pressure, use short strokes and
let the paper do the cutting. Brush off the dust often to avoid clogging the sandpaper. The sand paper can be cleaned with a stiff brush or rubber
eraser. Check the fingerboard with a straight edge, looking toward a light to see any gaps or high spots in the surface. When the surface is flat and
evenly sanded, switch to 120 -150 grit to smooth the surface, then 220 - 320 to for a fine finish. Finally, polish the surface with 0000 steel wool.
Seal it with tung oil, which will penetrate and harden the wood.
2. Make some filings or fine shredding using a rough rasp or rough sandpaper across the grain from a matching colored wood. Mix with hide glue or
clear epoxy, fill the crack and remove as much excess filler as possible before the glue dries. Hide glue works best because you can clean off the
excess even after it cures with hot water and a rough cloth or plastic scouring pad. Touch up the finish if you like with shellac applied with a fine
brush. After the shellac cures you can smooth the edges of the finish patch with a q-tip or small brush and methyl alcohol.
3. The leading and exiting edge of the string grooves can be smoothed with a round jeweler's file to remove any sharp edge. The jumping may not be
avoidable, however, if the winding is coarse. The string grooves should not be too deep and not extend through the front edge. The grooves only need
to be on the back side radius of the nut and just deep enough to hold the string in position, and minimize edges for the string windings to catch on.
The grooves should also have a larger radius than the string, never a V notch or knife cut. The round jeweler'w file is tapered so you need to use the
appropriate section of the file to get the right radius groove.
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em.20
Oud Maniac
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I've done the sanding and after that I coat the fingerboard with Tru-Oil. After 12 hours it still looks a bit glossy and it smells.
Is that normal or did I use too much of the oil?
Do I have to apply a few coats or is one coat enough?
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bulerias1981
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I put a cotton swab inside a small cotton or polyester cloth, and tie it with a rubber band or a twist tie (from bread) and dip it in th tru-oil so
that when I apply it, it is in thin coats. Let the first coat dry very good, maybe a day or more. Then lightly go over it with 0000 steel wool, then
clean it. Now you're ready to apply the next coat. When I finish an oud, I do 8-12 coats of tru-oil. After the first coat (depending on your humidity)
You can apply the following coats anywhere from 3-5 hours. Put on as many coats as you need.
But to answer your first question, you want the coats as thin as possible.
It is normal for it to smell, so do this work somewhere away from where you frequent. I use the bathroom, I hang it on the wall with newspaper taped
to the wall. Just know that Tru-oil smells A LOT less than laquer!
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em.20
Oud Maniac
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It worked quite well. The sanding + oiling reduced the buzzing a lot. Also the sound is more metallic and more pithy. I like that! However the buzzing
is not gone at all so I will try a second time sanding. And this time I will use less of the oil because it feels a bit sticky especially on
vibrato.
I've uploaded some pictures of the nut so maybe you can have a look on that:
http://imageshack.us/g/713/20120306164104.jpg/
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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It usually takes several days for this sort of varnish to fully set. On yearly refreshes it sets within a day or so, but the first time the whole job
usually takes me well over a week, even two. I usually apply 5 coats, let each layer set at least overnight in a warm place, or under a lamp, then
sand it down quite a bit, and apply the next. Then wait again. A single fat layer could take a month to set, and even then would stay tacky/gummy.
It's not like epoxy or cyanoacrylate. Apparently these "oil" varnishes, like "tung oil" or "tru-oil", require a lot of oxygen to polymerize, a thick
layer doesn't get any air. It's important to apply several coats and sand in between applying them, letting each one harden.
As to your buzzing, it's not clear where it is, but there shouldn't be any coming from a leveled fingerboard. Could it be a different issue? Your
pictures don't show enough of the fingerboard, but they seem to show grooves remaining in the fingerboard, and if that's so, you haven't leveled it.
We're talking about taking off enough wood so there are no grooves, maybe 1/2 a millimeter, even more, getting a whole new perfectly level
fingerboard, you would have to lower the nut a bit, and only then coating it to harden the wood. It can't be leveled by gooping on varnish. What
Richard was describing was ideal, using a big enough piece of very flat wood as a sanding block that you can reliably sand down to a flat new
fingerboard.
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em.20
Oud Maniac
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I tried to make some pictures of the fingerboard but they are very blurry so it does not help. I used a block of wood which is wider than the
fingerboard and which I cut longer than the fingerboard.
Today I sanded it a second time. Later I will coat it but use less of the oil. I will do it like you described.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Have you sanded it deep enough so there are no grooves or dips?
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em.20
Oud Maniac
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I tried it but there are still so many grooves there and there isn't that much of the fingerboard left, maybe 1mm on some areas. My assumption is that
the fingerboard is made of very bad quality wood.
http://imageshack.us/g/254/img1445u.jpg/
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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The term "small" isn't too precise, is it? The tiny "worm" pits are normal for rosewood and some other woods. Sanding cannot eliminate them, and they
don't cause buzzing because strings are wider and don't settle in them. They can be filled with a wood sealer, but if you have no other longer, wider,
deeper grooves that a string can fit down in, that's not the reason for your buzzing.
Is your buzzing currently specific to certain strings and/or positions on the neck? What about open strings? Can you carefully examine the neck
flatness and where it buzzes using a straight-edge and a strong light? A tube can help you listen for the source, or a stethoscope. It can be
tricky.
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em.20
Oud Maniac
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On open strings there isn't any buzzing. I only have buzzing at the 3th and 4th couple. Near to the nut it is worst. I will try the advice with the
tube.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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So it would be logical to expect some convexity of the fingerboard in the length dimension, so strings fingered near the nut are scraping the
fingerboard further up, right? Do you see any with the straight-edge?
Just how low are the strings now at the neck-body junction? Below 2.5 mm it becomes almost impossible to prevent some buzz, it's part of "the Turkish
sound". For an Arabic timbre the action is generally over 3.5 mm. I love the way Sukars and Fadi Mattas let you adjust the action by slightly changing
the neck angle. In your case is it worth raising the strings a little at the bridge by pulling the loops up?
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