Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Strings
Dear oudists,
I need some advice from you experts out there, me being new to the wonderful world of ouds. I have started to experiment with different tunings and I
have taken quite a fancy to the high Arabic one (you know the one: from lowest to highest FF (or EE), AA, DD, gg, cc, ff. Now, wanting to replace the
strings and being short of money, I thought that I could use two sets of nylon strings originally intended for classical guitar. After all, the tuning
of each single string is almost the same, excepted for the first and the sixth course, which would be tuned just one step higher anyway. I happen to
have two sets of Rotosound (gauge from lowest to highest: 045W low E, 036W A, 030W D, 040 g, 032 b, 028 high e. Could I damage the oud (s) irreparably
if I put those strings on? Will there be a difference at all? Please put me out of my misery........thanks in advance
Giorgio
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ameer
Oud Junkie
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Please don't do that. Bad things will happen. The oud is built to withstand tensions no more than 4 KG, if that. Classical guitar sets exert close to
6 KG when tuned to standard eadgbe tuning. For F tuning you're best option is to get a set designed for it.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Wait, it's a different scale length, so the calculation has to take that into account. The last time i did it it turned out that a low tension set of
Spanish guitar strings worked not too badly on an Arabic oud with a 600 mm scale tuned C, EE, AA, DD, gg, cc, and while tensions on a guitar were over
5 Kg, on the oud they were around 3Kg. Different scale length, different tuning, and in the end, by a fluke, it sort of fits.
BUT if you want the first course tuned to high ff, the 0.028, which is already stiff for cc, would be way too heavy for ff. You would need to get
something like a pair of 0.020" for the ff 1st course, and offset the rest of the set, so you would end up with a plain nylon 4th course, which isn't
kosher. You'd have to buy extra strings, and if you don't compare and carefully calculate you could easily rip the bridge off the oud. My suggestion:
PLEASE go to bill ostrie's site and buy a set of Daniel Mari Arabic oud strings AND a pair of course 0 "mumtaz" strings for the high ff. Total cost
around $10.
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Dear Ameer and Fernandraynaud,
thanks so much for the advice. I will definetly get a specially designed set for Arabic oud then. The standard set plus the mumtaz strings sounds a
sensible option. I have already checked the Daniel Mari site and they say it's only three days for overseas shipment (I live in the UK). I am inclined
to somewhat doubt this statement........any experience regarding this?
Also, the site doesn't tell about which gauge the sets are. Now, I have checked the La Bella Arabic oud set OU80A (12 strings with the mumtaz ff and
without the C bass) and it's: 022 Plain, .027 Plain, .031 Plain, .023 Wound, .029 Wound, .033 Wound. This seems a light gauge and it goes very well
with my Sayed bin Fathy Amin which incidentally (and unfortunately) has a bit of a high action. But at £20 ($25) a throw, they're not cheap.
Do you know by any chance the gauge of the Mari strings?
Thanks again guys, what would I do without you oudists out there?
Giorgio
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mari makes his strings to order, so even though the packages look the same, it's best to ask a particular supplier what the gauges are in his set.
The one I sell is as follows:
Gauges:
1st: .025in / .625mm
2nd: .028in / .72mm
3rd (wound): .024in / .61mm
4th (wound): .029in / .74mm
5th (wound): .033in / .84mm
6th (wound): .041in / 1.03mm
I asked for these, so I don't know what might be in the Mari oud strings on Ostrie's site, you should ask him or if someone else has them and has
measured them maybe they can share.
I think it's pretty unlikely that shipping to the UK would be a few days; to do that via USPS would be about $17-$28 in shipping alone.
As far as I can tell, any other carrier would be about $80 to get it shipped that fast.
Normal shipping from the US (around $5) usually takes 1 week, up to 2 weeks.
Edit: I just checked Ostrie's site and this is what he says about international shipping:
| Quote: | Shipping: $6.75
International orders are sent by USPS International First Class Mail (airmail) and arrive in 7-10 days, barring any customs delay in your country.
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I actually have one sample left of a D'addario prototype set for high f' tuning, which I can send to at no charge other than shipping costs. just
contact me through this page:
http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=information/contact
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Dear Brian,
thanks for your tips regarding the strings, very much appreciated. As it happens, I am going to London for the weekend where I'll be able to find some
oud strings down Hobgoblin shop (Rathbone Place, just off Oxford Street, funnyly where the EMI studios used to be). But in the future I'll be
definetly ordering from your tips. Thanks again!
Giorgio
P.S. I have had a bit of a listen to your music. It's very beautiful and you're very talented. If one day I could get to play the oud at least with
half of the prowess that you're playing it, I'd be a very happy man!
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
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hiya!
i have mixed experiences with hobgoblin. they don't always have strings in stock, and if they do they sometimes only have one or two different types.
there's another shop in camden / chalk farm you can try if hobgoblin don't have whatever you're after in stock.
good luck!
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Mood: Oudbsessed
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Hey littleseb, good to see you around! Hope you're well and everything's ok.
Man, this is not the first time I hear those kind of things about Hobgoblin. Makes me want to give it a wide berth. Thanks for the advice. Trouble is,
us oudists have to make do with what's available sometimes, given the scarcity of the material we deal with (which is why I was toying with the idea
of using classical guitar strings in the first place. Good job I got talked out of that insane idea)...... Could you please tell me where is the shop
in Camden? Ta-da, take care.
G.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Hey Giorgio, I am glad to help. Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you liked it!
cheers,
Brian
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Here is what typical Daniel Mari sets mic'ed as, as of, say, a year+ ago when I got several packs from Mr Ostrie's site.
Needless to say a single digit's variation in the last position is within the variation on a string, the digital micrometer and my technique in
"measuring". But I had checked them with an "analog" mic, and "it" was "close".
At one point like a couple of years ago there were 0.022" cc strings, then they (unexpectedly) "became" 0.025".
The Turkish and Arabic sets always had the same gauges, and I have tried and used both sets on Arabic ouds. I never noticed any difference. I believe
they were literally the same strings. That could possibly have changed in the last year.
At first they were 36" long and when I *whined* they went up to 44".
0th 0.019-20 plain (arabic ff) (extra "Mumtaz" strings)
1st 0.022-25 plain nylon (arabic cc) last I got were 0.025"
2nd 0.028 plain nylon (arabic gg)
3rd 0.024 wound (arabic DD)
4th 0.029 wound (arabic AA)
5th 0.034 wound (arabic FF)
6th 0.041-43 wound (arabic C)
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
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Mood: high
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yo giorgioud!
i'm not too well tbh. i crashed my bike last week and broke my elbow. no playing for me for 6-8 weeks. bummer.
might be worth giving hobgoblin a call on 020 7323 9040.
camden shop:
ray man. 54 chalk farm road, london NW1. tel: 020 7692 6261
nearest tube is camden town or chalk farm.
good luck mate!
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Mood: Oudbsessed
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Hey littleseb,
sorry to hear about your accident! It is indeed a bummer. I hope you get better soon. If it can be of any comfort to you, once I was playing a gig in
Siena in one of these spectacular Italian castles, and just before the gig I fell in one of the moats surrounding it (no fences and I was pissed on
Martini). I landed on my hands and, high on adrenaline and alcohol, I played the gig. Afterwards, at the hospital, I got the news that the scafoid
bone was broken in BOTH hands and, needless to say, I got both arms in plaster for a month. From plastered to plaster in less than 4 hours! I'll spare
you the details......I had just bought a bouzouki as well, and I was itching to play it!!! Console yourself with the thought that at least you've got
the other arm fully funcioning..... :-). No, seriously, I wish you a full and speedy recovery.........
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Mood: Oudbsessed
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Hello Fernandraynaud,
thank you so much for your advice regarding the strings. I wasn't aware that existed a mumtaz string that thin (020). So many things I gotta learn!!
That could be just what I need.....although, you know, there's always a little bit of a dilemma as far as gauges are concerned: because of the high
action I feel I should use a light gauge, but at the same time a heavier gauge would benefit immensely for sound power and sheer attack.....have you
got the same problem?
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
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Littleseb
P.S. thanks for the address and the phone numbers!!!
To all: what do you think of the Nautilauta? Quite a stroke of genius, isn't it?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Quote: Originally posted by Giorgioud  | | I wasn't aware that existed a mumtaz string that thin (020) .... because of the high action I feel I should use a light gauge, but at the same time a
heavier gauge would benefit immensely for sound power and sheer attack.....have you got the same problem? |
Yes, if you want to tune F->ff, you add a 0.020" course, and you drop the low C string from the set.
Most oud necks tend to flex very little, so it's unusual for a light string set to drop the action. Because of the lightweight construction, higher
tensions always carry some risk of pulling off the bridge. In the end oud strings don't vary all that much, not like what's available on (sturdy)
guitars.
I think those Daniel Mari gauges are about right. Some brands may have thicker or thinner winding wire, so a given gauge may be stiffer or looser, but
on the whole, given how the materials are the same, gauge is the determining factor. The tension on an oud string seems to land between 2.5 and 4 kg.
And these are extremes. It doesn't take much change in tuning or material to go from say 2.9 to 3.5 kg.
The same strings on a Turkish oud with a shorter scale can be tuned up two half steps and still be reasonable. Now on a longer scale and tuned higher,
and that's the case on a Spanish Guitar, they develop twice the tension, and that would be enough to destroy an oud. On a Western Guitar, the plain
strings and the wound string core are metal, and the tensions double again.
Play around with Arto's String Calculator, you'll get a much better feel for the whole topic.
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Calcs/wwwscalc.html
Here's a table again with PVF string gauges added. PVF is a heavier material than nylon, so thinner strings are needed for equivalent tension. An
advantage of PVF is that they sound a little more metallic, so there's no big jump in timbre going from the wound strings. Likewise, for a more
consistently mellow sound, if that's what you prefer, some use a plain nylon DD course with plain nylon trebles.
0th 0.019-20 nylon or 0.015" PVF (arabic ff)
1st 0.022-25 nylon or 0.018-20 PVF (arabic cc)
2nd 0.028 nylon or 0.024 PVF (arabic gg)
3rd 0.024 wound or 0.038 nylon (arabic DD)
4th 0.029 wound (arabic AA)
5th 0.034 wound (arabic EE or FF)
6th 0.041-44 wound (arabic C) 0.046-50 (arabic B)
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