| Pages:
1
2 |
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Simon Shaheen and NPR
Just found this interview with my favorite living oudist.
I'm typing this as I listen so I haven't heard the whole thing. Nice so far, though.
Simon Shaheen interview
|
|
|
samzayed
Oud Junkie
Posts: 485
Registered: 11-1-2003
Location: Chicago, IL
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mashee el hal
|
|
Check this out:
http://www.afropop.org/multi/interview/ID/39/Simon+Shaheen+on+the+o... (2003)
He makes some interesting, yet possibly controversal points
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I think it would be appropriate for a so called professional musician to be more gentle with his statements. Especially when it's obvious the
person have little knowledge in some parts of the oud world. Bashir is an icon for Iraqi poeple just as Farid are for the Egyptians and you know to
well how infected it can be.
It's enough to listen to the Iraqi school and you know what they can do with the poor f string.
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
samzayed
Oud Junkie
Posts: 485
Registered: 11-1-2003
Location: Chicago, IL
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mashee el hal
|
|
He makes the use of the f string seem like a shortcut to avoid playing down the neck. This may be true for some, however, I think this concept was
introduced by oud soloists to increase the range of their ouds. A good example of this is Anouar Brahem, Charbel Rouhana, and Naseer Shamma.
I am soo tempted to change tunings to F A D g c' f'
|
|
|
walkad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 6-27-2004
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
is Naseer Shamma imitating Munir Bashir!!??
This is what Shaheen said about Shamma:
"Okay, [Naseer] Shamma. I heard him one time. He comes from this school, imitating Munir Bashir and this kind of thing. I don't know what
his relationship with the improvisational world is, because I didn't hear much of the improvisation. But he composes things like imitating
sounds, like sirens, or natural things, you know? But I don't know much about his repertoire"
I am astonished. I cant beleive somebody who calls himself an oudplayer saying this.
Even a deff person can hear that Naseer and Bashir have completely diferents styles. And if he doesnt know about Naseers repertoire than he should
shut up.
|
|
|
LeeVaris
Oud Junkie
Posts: 379
Registered: 12-16-2003
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: oud lover
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by walkad
Even a deff person can hear that Naseer and Bashir have completely diferents styles. And if he doesnt know about Naseers repertoire than he should
shut up. |
Yes... a lot of what Simon says in this interview is just not worth commenting on. He's so obviously chauvinistic about his particular style of
playing. He's a great player but he's closed off to other approaches/styles - so much so that he clearly doesn't listen to much
contemporary playing. Too bad... real innovation comes from people with an open mind!
personally, I love that high "f" string
|
|
|
Zulkarnain
Oud Junkie
Posts: 667
Registered: 1-14-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Maybe he want to be the King of Oud...
|
|
|
sydney
Oud Junkie
Posts: 579
Registered: 12-9-2003
Location: Down Under
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bastanikar
|
|
Thank you Jameel
Hey Jameel 
Thanks for telling us about this interview.. man Simon is a real pro.
Amazing how he could be in full control of two different instrumnts Violin is not an easy one and oud too. In my opinion he is far better than many
other players since he managed to master two of the hardest instruments.
He is one of my favorite players too.
Sam, I agree with what Simon said about the f string - only if I look at it from how it came about adding an extra string. I am with you that today
the use of the f string is rather different to some oud players but it is a laziness to others.
At the end of the day , everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Love to all
Emad
|
|
|
Adel
Oud Maniac
Posts: 90
Registered: 12-7-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
hi everybody,
I have recordings of our masters like Qasabjy and Sunbaty using the F string....
Also masters like jamil Bashir and his brother Munir bashir used the f strings.....and what Jamil bashir produced on that F string no oud player on
earth has matched him..;
Their is nothing wrong with the F string...
If you go back to the old Egyptian oud , you will find that it had 7 strings on it....i.e the top F and the bottom C...
Good luck,
Adel
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Wow, this sure has stirred up a lot of discussion. It seems to me that Simon's comments are being blown out of proportion and being
misinterpreted somewhat.
Here's what Simon said about the high f string:
I notice that in many instances musicians add the F string because of [lack of] technical abilities. Instead of playing on the
fingerboard of the oud, instead of using different positions up and down, they would rather stay in one position and then use the F string. They
prefer to stay in one position and play the higher notes on the F.
He said "in many instances".
I think it's pretty clear that Simon is not opposed the F string per se, but only when it ends up limiting the players. He was obviously not
referring to Munir Bashir or Mohammed el Qassabji.
here's his comment on Munir Bashir:
Munir Bashir as a player, definitely he was a fantastic player
and Qassabji:
His oud playing is fabulous . . . and he was one of those who, later in the 40s and 50s, was responsible for adding the high string to widen the
range of his oud, but he wasn't captivated by it
I've personally heard many oud players that do use the high f as a shortcut; it's not like he made that up. It seems very clear that he
wasn't talking about Munir Bachir.
Walkad, Simon's admission that he doesn't know that much about Shamma was pretty much "shutting up" as you put it. He was
asked to say what he thought about these oud players; it's not like he was going out of his way to put down Shamma. He seemed
to be trying to say as little as he reasonably could about Shamma.
his comments:
I heard him one time. He comes from this school, imitating Munir Bashir and this kind of thing. I don't know what his relationship with
the improvisational world is, because I didn't hear much of the improvisation. But he composes things like imitating sounds, like sirens, or
natural things, you know? But I don't know much about his repertoire.
let's see, he refused to comment on Shamma's improvisation, and said as little as he could about his compositions. It doesn't sound to
me like he was disparaging Shamma; just saying that he comes from the Bachir school of playing and that he doesn't know much else about him.
As far as Shamma and Bashir having "completely" different styles, it seems quite clear that Bachir was a big influence on Shamma, especially
when you compare what he does with traditional playing. They have a lot of differences, of course, but Shamma does seem to come from the Bachir
school of playing. Simon didn't say that Shamma sounds like Bachir, just that he imitated him and comes from his school of playing. Do you
think that Shamma has not been influenced by Bachir?
Simon's ability to hear is incredible. He has by far the most sensitive ears of any musician I have ever met, and I've met some amazing
musicians. I'm talking about people who could hear an improvisation one time and play it back from memory without even consulting their
instrument. Who could transcribe every part from hearing a full orchestra. Simon beats them all; he can play back a taqasim that his father played
once 40 years ago. His intonation is precise down to fractions of a quarter tone (he on more than one occasion demonstrated about 10 specific notes
between D and E). He has an enormous repertoire. I heard a recording of him when he was FIVE YEARS OLD, and he sounded amazing. To suggest that he
is deaf is preposterous. Much more likely, he's hearing something (or a lack thereof) that others are not aware of.
here's another comment of his that puts things in perspective:
all these players--Mohamed Zinelabadine (of Tunisia), Bashir, Shamma, Chraïbi--it's interesting that they care to introduce the oud not only
as an accompaniment instrument but also as a solo instrument, so this is a great thing.
He actually says that what Shamma is doing is a great thing, furthering the oud as a solo instrument.
Lee,
Simon is not chauvanistic about his style of playing, he is just very much concerned with maintaining the roots of the traditional taqasim and the
traditional repertoire. This far transcends any concern about his personal "style." Simon is not just a great player but has an incredible
depth of knowledge about the tradition. The subtleties of intonation, modulation, the development of the maqam, use of ornaments that were passed
down through his family are a treasure that is in real danger of being lost to future generations. If he sometimes sounds reactionary, it's
because he loves Arabic music so much that he doesn't want the tradition to be lost. He's not opposed or closed to innovation, he just
wishes that people don't lose the depth of the tradition in the process.
Of course, I know Simon so I'm biased, but part of the reason I'm biased is because I know how incredibly generous he is as a musician and
as a person. The retreat that he leads every year is a monument to his generosity. He has created a beautiful community of people who are devoted to
preserving and spreading the tradition of Arabic music. He doesn't get anything out of the retreat personally; he just does it for the music.
How many other musicians spend as much time and effort to help keep the tradition alive?
|
|
|
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks Brian for the interesting info on Simon. You are lucky to have gleaned so much from Shaheen. I think his love of traditional music is a real
asset. I only have one complaint. Where are some new recordings? I don't think there is anyone here who would not welcome some traditional albums
along the lines of his Abdel Wahab album. (a personal favorite). I hear he is going to release a couple this year. Heard anything about this?
|
|
|
samzayed
Oud Junkie
Posts: 485
Registered: 11-1-2003
Location: Chicago, IL
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mashee el hal
|
|
I didn't intend to cause this much comotion by posting the article. I feel like a trouble maker!  In hindsight, there have been a lot of thought provoking comments made here, and that is the intention of this
forum.
Brian, thanks for the clarification from Simon's perspective. I hope to someday make it to the retreat!
|
|
|
sydney
Oud Junkie
Posts: 579
Registered: 12-9-2003
Location: Down Under
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bastanikar
|
|
Thank you Jameel and Brian
Amazing how we can easily misunderstand things and take words the wrong way.
I recently have come across one of the people here in the forum who sadly misunderstood me. I was even sent e-mails full of insults out of no reason
from that person.
Love to you all Fine people .. Oud lovers
Emad
Hey Mr. Brian how come we don't get to listen to your music any more? Huh?
stay well
|
|
|
walkad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 6-27-2004
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As far as Shamma and Bashir having "completely" different styles, it seems quite clear that Bachir was a big influence on Shamma,
especially when you compare what he does with traditional playing. They have a lot of differences, of course, but Shamma does seem to come from the
Bachir school of playing. Simon didn't say that Shamma sounds like Bachir, just that he imitated him and comes from his school of playing. Do you
think that Shamma has not been influenced by Bachir?
Ok, my english is maybe not good, but I think there are a difference btwn when someone is influenced and imitating.
I am sure that our friend shaheen is not deff, I am sure that he his a good oud player, and I am sure of that I dont like the way he put his judgement
on oud players that makes him fade away when compared to him.
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Hey Emad,
I agree that it's easy to take things the wrong way; communication is such a tricky thing. Especially when someone is trying to communcate in a
second language (like Simon).
Sorry I haven't posted any music lately (or anything really); I've been really busy. I'm borrowing one of Najib's ouds &
I'll record something soon . . .
Walkad, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. But I'd like to point out that the way music is learned is through imitation. So
it's not an insult to say someone has imitated a great player. It's clear that Simon has spent a lot of time imitating both Riad
al-Sounbati and Farid (and of course his father, Hikmat Shaheen). That doesn't take away from his identity, and it doesn't take away from
Shamma to say he has imitated Munir Bachir. It's obvious from listening to him that he has spent quite a bit of time imitating Bachir; now he
has moved on and has his own identity, but it's still very Bachir influenced. This isn't a bad thing; Bachir was brilliant and had a
unique, beautiful style. I think we all love the oud, so why do we get so territorial about one approach or another? Shamma plays some beautiful
music. So does Simon. They are completely different and it's a waste of time trying to say who's the best.
As far as him judging other players, again, he was asked to do so, and I thought he showed a lot of restraint in basically not really commenting on
Shamma. If you were being interviewed and were asked your opinions on several oud players, would you just say everyone was great?
Jameel,
From what I know, Simon is recording another Qantara album, and an album of taqasim. On the taqasim album he plans to use several of his old ouds,
including a few Nahats and (I think) a Gamil Georges. As for another album like the Wahab, I've been trying to talk him into it . . . at least
he's going to reissue the Wahab. It's been OOP for a while now.
|
|
|
walkad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 6-27-2004
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Brian, it was very obvious that used Simon discribed Shamma as imitating Munir Bashir in a very negative way. This cant be missunderstood and you
sound like a New York lawyer (you maybe are:-)).
A big part of the interview was carried in an immature way, Simon could have avoided making a fool of himself just by not giving comments on players
(lets not say better than him) who play in the same league.
He sounded like a teacher giving his opinion on students, the hole undertone is he makes himself sound so superior to the others (sadly this is what
many musicians do when they achieve a high level)
And once again Brian you are very wrong when you say that its obvious that Shamma's imitating Munir Bashir. You seem to think that everyone who
use a Bashir oud is imitating Munir Bashir. Those two person have very as different playing style as it can be.
In very few words you can say that Shamma has a technique that is more based on the left hand while Munir Bashir is more on the right hand.
I've sensed that many who speaks about the "iraqi" playing style is meaning playing with Bashir ouds, and this is wrong. If you listen
to players like Salman Shukur, Jamil Bashir and Salem Abdel Karem (who has influenced Naseer Shamma very much) you can see that each of them has a
very different style and though they all represent parts of the iraqi oud tradition.
If you listen to what Shaheen said on that matter you get the impression that iraqi oud playing technique is mainly turkish.
|
|
|
Karim Kadiri
Oud Admirer
Posts: 3
Registered: 10-21-2004
Location: Philly
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you liked Simon's stuff, you should also check out Said Chraibi. If you like traditional however try to find stuff by Ahmed Albidaoui (the
greatest)
|
|
|
sydney
Oud Junkie
Posts: 579
Registered: 12-9-2003
Location: Down Under
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bastanikar
|
|
Hello walkad
How are you brother,
I was wondering if there is an e-mail address for Simon that you can contact him on and ask him what he really means with what he says. I see you are
unhappy with some of what he said here and there. Honestly I'd contact him and confront him. It would be nice to get a feed back from you.
On the other hand , I see you jealous fan over Shamma. I do respect that man. I do like him too.
I wonder if you could post something you play or Shamma plays .. Do you care to share ?
Best regards.
Emad from Sydney
|
|
|
walkad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 6-27-2004
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Emad,
thank you I am fine, and I hope that all oud maniacs like me, whatever opinions they have also is fine... 
I am more of a Bashir brothers fan (Munir and Jameel). I like Shamma but his not my favourite.
Simon Shaheen has many admirers, many who doesnt know much about arabic music culture, and they will believe much of his let's say
missunderstandings.
Thats why I feel its more constructive to bring those things up in an open forum and Mr Shaheen can still defend himself if I or someone else have
been injust to him.
Naseer Shamma fans has no reason to be jealous. Naseer Shamma is probable the most famous oud player alive. No one of his generation of oud players
can even dream to achieving half the success that Shamma achieved.
I cant see in what context posting a sample of my oud playing fits in this discussion.
Regards
|
|
|
Zulkarnain
Oud Junkie
Posts: 667
Registered: 1-14-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
For Shamma's Fans 
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Zulkarnain
For Shamma's Fans |
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
>I wonder if you could post something >you play or Shamma plays .. Do you care >to share ?
That was pretty low.
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Okay, the Swedes win . . .
For the record, it is now my opinion that:
1) Simon is an arrogant, ignorant amateur and his admirers are stupid
2) Naseer Shamma is the greatest living oud player and his admirers have unique powers of perception
3) No Iraqi oud player has been significantly influenced by Munir Bachir
4) musicians should refuse to give their opinions even when asked, unless their opinion is that Shamma is great.
5) All reasonable people must share this opinion. 
(before you guys flame me--i'm joking! i'm just tired of this pointless arguing, so you can have the last word)
moving on, thanks Walkad for pointing me towards Salem Abdel Karem; I listened to some stuff from his website and he sounds great.  I'm definitely going to check him out more. Apparently (according to
Issa Boulos' site) one of his teachers was Palestinian, is that correct?
there are so many excellent and distinct oud players . . . i was thinking it would be a cool thread to post as many players as we could find doing a
taqsim in the same maqam (say, bayati?), just to hear all the variety within a specific context. Maybe something productive could come out of this
discussion . . . any thoughts?
|
|
|
Zulkarnain
Oud Junkie
Posts: 667
Registered: 1-14-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
One more for Shamma's Fans!
|
|
|
Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Zulkarnain
One more for Shamma's Fans! |
Best wishes
Ronny
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
