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Bodhi
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[*] posted on 5-7-2012 at 01:27 AM
Looking for a recording


Hi everyone, I am looking for a recording which is just oud and vocals (can include percussion but not more than that) I wondered if any of you know a good option? I dont have a preference over male or female vocals just that its not too nasal. I have one of Hamza El-din's albums but want something more in the classical tradition, can be turkish, Arab or anything else. thanks in advance.
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[*] posted on 5-7-2012 at 10:40 AM


Before I try to answer this, what do you mean by, "...not too nasal?"
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[*] posted on 5-7-2012 at 11:48 AM


That the vocal tone is not too nasal! like liam gallagher is way too nasal and so is Yusuf Omar. I know Arabs like that nasal tone but some singers dont do it too much like Nouna El-Hana.

so nasal as in singing too much in the nose.
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[*] posted on 5-7-2012 at 02:14 PM


How about "Complainte Hsine" by Samir Tahar?

http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=5131553&song=Complainte+Hsi...
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[*] posted on 5-7-2012 at 03:11 PM


I am a relative newcomer to this forum which I admire for its civility and friendliness and also for the accuracy of most of the posts. Please forgive me if I am speaking out of turn or too bluntly but I disagree with your opinion about the nasality of both examples. Assuming that the Yusuf Omar you are referring to is the famous singer of Iraqi Maqam, he sounds to me to be mostly singing from his chest. The throat is involved to some extent and opens and constricts according to vowel. The head will resonate for certain vowels, yes, and on the higher pitched notes there is a degree of nasality especially on the syllable aa. But basically this is a chest tone with some belly involved as well. He's a singer remarkable for the variety of his tones which come from all over the body and sometimes change syllable by syllable. I haven't heard much Liam Gallagher. What I've heard is a thin tone that is almost entirely in the upper throat. No chest, very little head and therefore very little nose.

I remember reading some years ago about an informal study that demonstrated that listeners all over the world tend to describe unfamiliar vocal sounds or vocal sounds which do not appeal to them, as "nasal"and that this description generally is not descriptive of what is actually sung. So the man on the street in South India thinks European opera singers are nasal. The English reviewer of CDs writes that Greek amanes singers are all nasal. And now an open voiced singer like Yusuf Omar is "too nasal". May I suggest you listen again and in a different way? If one listens while attentive to the feelings in one's body the point of origin of a singer's sounds can be felt in the corresponding areas of the listener's body. This requires no special training. There are other ways to tell as well.

Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi  
That the vocal tone is not too nasal! like liam gallagher is way too nasal and so is Yusuf Omar. I know Arabs like that nasal tone but some singers dont do it too much like Nouna El-Hana.

so nasal as in singing too much in the nose.
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[*] posted on 5-7-2012 at 10:34 PM


pehaps you are correct about yusuf omar as I am not a fan and its been awhile since i heard him, but liam gallagher is definately nasal. you hear a manc. accent. thanks for your post
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[*] posted on 5-7-2012 at 10:35 PM


Thank you john i will check that out. :-)
i appreciate that.

just to update that the recording is great, the voice is just what i was hoping for and the oud playing very sensitive. thanks for that.
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[*] posted on 5-8-2012 at 08:21 AM


Hi Bodhi,

You're welcome.

We all, of course, are entitled to our opinions, and I would be the first to admit that Iraqi Maqam singing style might be an acquired taste. (I find Hamid As-Saadi's recordings especially grating, but I really enjoy the music of Hussain Al-Adhami).

However, I just want to reiterate what Jody said about the "nasality" of Near Eastern singing: In Western culture, this impression has taken on the scope of a racist stereotype, and we should be careful what we say and how we say it.

Have you ever heard Tom Lehrer's "Who's Next?" a famous US political satire song from 1965: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGptO6j3G-U (listen how Lehrer changes his voice at 0:46)

Another particularly egregarious example is the song "Camels" on the Music Together "Triangle" CD. These recordings are intended for children's musical education, so the stereotyped nasality, tonality and title of the song are particularly offensive. (I did try to open a dialog with Music Together HQ about this, but they were completely unreceptive and failed to perceive any potential for offense.)

More broadly, in popular Western literature, Arabic music is described in terms almost as cretinous as what one would have heard in pre-modern times (thanks to Bernard Lewis for collecting/translating some examples of this!). In "Baghdad Without a Map" (1992) American Tony Horwitz descibed Arabic music he heard as "atonal" [sic!] and in "The Demonic Comedy" British/Canadian Paul William Roberts described a khaleeji-style band he heard as, "...wailing tunlessly."

Thanks for listening...

Best,
John
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[*] posted on 5-8-2012 at 12:06 PM


I didnt mean this to turn into a racism thread.

As far as Arab music goes I think that the vocals a generally preferred at least a little nasal, that is thier asthetic and far be it from me to judge that. However it doesn't please my ear so much, not to say I don't like arab music (I play oud ;-p). My wife on the other hand has a particular fondness for nasal tones in vocals she feels it brings a tension that moves in a way smooth voices don't. She does feel that arab vocals are on the nasal side more often than not, using the word nasal in a positive way on many occasions to describe singers she likes. When I talk with my arab friends they were never offended when I refered to certain singers as nasal or mentioned their fondness for that sound. I think we are way too worried about upseting people who generally don't get upset by friendly conversation. however if my use of the word nasal in reference to the arabian ear is upsetting for anybody then i am deeply sorry and I hope they would accept my sincere apologies.

I know in the past many westerners have been detrimental about oriental music in all its guises, whether arab, india, persian or chinese. Again Indian musicians often think that western classical music is just noise, so westerners are not alone in their ignorance. What we would like to expect is that everyone is giving their best in the field of music they love and whether the music produced is beautiful to another is absolutely subjective. All forms of art have credibility if done with heart and soul. I hope we can all agree on that.

Back to the beginning:
Anyone else got anymore nice recordings?
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[*] posted on 5-8-2012 at 02:03 PM


Hi Bodhi,

I'm sure you didn't mean to turn this discussion into a racism thread; I just wanted to suggest approaching the "nasal" description with caution, given the history of that description as being used in a truly cretinous--if not racist--way. And, yes, the Bernard Lewis work I alluded to previously also contains very unflattering descriptions by Near Easterners of Western Classical music.

More recordings:

Yair Dalal - "Yah Ribon 'Alam" from "Samar": http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QNV5BO/ref=dm_mu_dp_trk6 (Jewish-Iraqi Aramaic)

Necati Çelik - "Uzzal Nakis Yürüksemai" from "Yasemin": http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QZBSLY/ref=dm_dp_trk18?ie=UTF8... (Turkish)

Riad El Soumbati - "Al Atlal": http://www.maqam.com/store/p/1053-Al-Atlal.html#Samples (Egyptian Arabic)

Abdelmajid Abdallah from Saudi Arabia has some really beautiful recordings like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxYFyKdLZls&feature=related I only have one old cassette of his with only oud and voice, and it seems to be out-of-print, but maybe someone among Forum members knows of a more recent recording of his in this style.

I also believe I have a couple of old cassettes from Mohamed Abdulwahab which are only his oud and voice.

Hope that helps to start.

Peace out,
"Udi"John
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[*] posted on 5-8-2012 at 03:20 PM


Now *this* one (below) actually is nasal. Nasal means the nasal cavity is vibrating. It doesn't mean the music is bad. Or good. Nasal means the nose is involved in the sound production. I just tried an experiment. I sang a tone from my belly and chest and then while singing I held my nose and released it. There was no change in sound at all because the nose was not involved in the sound production. Then I sang a tone from the head and held the nose and released it. The difference was obvious.

Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich  
Hi Bodhi,


More recordings:


Abdelmajid Abdallah from Saudi Arabia has some really beautiful recordings like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxYFyKdLZls&feature=related

Peace out,
"Udi"John
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[*] posted on 5-8-2012 at 03:29 PM


This may be a case of "apples and oranges". I am talking about about how a sound is produced in the body. You may be talking about how a sound is perceived by a listener. Is that right?

OK, here's a question from jody to bodhi: which if any Persian "classical" (radif, dastgah) singers sound nasal to you? Is Davami nasal for instance?

Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi  
pehaps you are correct about yusuf omar as I am not a fan and its been awhile since i heard him, but liam gallagher is definately nasal. you hear a manc. accent. thanks for your post
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[*] posted on 5-9-2012 at 02:48 AM


Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich  

More recordings:

Yair Dalal - "Yah Ribon 'Alam" from "Samar": http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QNV5BO/ref=dm_mu_dp_trk6 (Jewish-Iraqi Aramaic)

Necati Çelik - "Uzzal Nakis Yürüksemai" from "Yasemin": http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QZBSLY/ref=dm_dp_trk18?ie=UTF8... (Turkish)

Riad El Soumbati - "Al Atlal": http://www.maqam.com/store/p/1053-Al-Atlal.html#Samples (Egyptian Arabic)

Abdelmajid Abdallah from Saudi Arabia has some really beautiful recordings like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxYFyKdLZls&feature=related I only have one old cassette of his with only oud and voice, and it seems to be out-of-print, but maybe someone among Forum members knows of a more recent recording of his in this style.

I also believe I have a couple of old cassettes from Mohamed Abdulwahab which are only his oud and voice.

Hope that helps to start.

Peace out,
"Udi"John


I have heard some of Mohamed abdulwahabs songs on youtube which are just oud and voice, and very nice they are. I will check around maybe they are still available.

Thank you for your suggestions I appreciate it.

Jody,
I dont think there is any need to carry on talking about nasality of singers. I dont have an absolute distain for nasal tones and I dont want to discuss about which singer I think is nasal and which ones you do, this thread is not a discussion thread. Maybe you should start your own thread about who is a nasal singer and who isnt, I am sure there would be great debate.
Do you have a record suggestion?
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[*] posted on 5-9-2012 at 08:01 AM


I am interested in how people perceive music and why. That is my motive, not debate. I will drop the topic of nasality at your request.

As for suggestions for oud/voice recordings, somewhere in an old shoebox I have a cassette of an Iranian singer accompanied by oud. This would be from the early 70s or even late 60s. I don't know who it is, but over the years I have heard similar. Not much help, but with your Iran connections you might know where to look. Samir Tahar has a good CD called Dreams that has several tracks of his singing with his own oud. Traditional Crossroads has released 3 CDs of Udi Hrant. Each of them has a few tracks of him singing with his own excellent oud accompaniment.


Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi  
Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich  



Jody,
I dont think there is any need to carry on talking about nasality of singers. I dont have an absolute distain for nasal tones and I dont want to discuss about which singer I think is nasal and which ones you do, this thread is not a discussion thread. Maybe you should start your own thread about who is a nasal singer and who isnt, I am sure there would be great debate.
Do you have a record suggestion?
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[*] posted on 5-9-2012 at 09:53 AM


I agree with Jody that tha main interest here is not "attacking," but trying to take a closer look at how Near Eastern music is perceived in the West. I also want to encourage members of our community to be sensitve that some terms and concepts might be used outside our community in a very negative--and, frankly, ignorant--way. (For example, the issue of the role and rights women in the Arab and Muslim world comes up in the Forums from time to time.)

Anyway, here is another great oud and voice only recording (Moroccan): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006158R2Q/ref=dm_dp_trk3?ie=UTF8&...

Over and out,
"Udi" John
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[*] posted on 5-9-2012 at 10:35 AM


Pardon my impudence, my dear friends, but it gives me endless mirth that a clown like Liam Gallagher is mentioned in the same sentence as Samir Tahar, Hamza El-Din or Nuna El-Hara......:))
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[*] posted on 5-9-2012 at 01:04 PM


John,
I quite like the abdelmajid. Yes now I am eating my hat, Jodi is right that he is nasal. ;-)
I quite like the Soumbati but I often feel his oud playing is too aggressive and i prefer a more relaxed floaty feel.
The Celik is nice also, quite relaxed. Is the whole record like that (before I commit)?

Did you not know Liam Gallagher has a fondness for the Turkish makam. However he is on record as saying "Errr yeah man, innit" about Qassabji.:wavey:
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[*] posted on 5-9-2012 at 01:57 PM


Hi Bodhi,

Unfortunately, although Necati's CD has some of the best oud playing you'll ever hear (IMHO), only the last cut is a vocal piece. You can buy this as a single MP3 download from Amazon, I think.

I have a cassette of beautiful Adbulmajid Abdallah oud/voice pieces. As far as I know, it's out of print. I would be happy to send you a cassette copy if you want to U2U me your name & mailing address.

Over and out,
John

Abdulmajid Abdallah SMALL Cassette J Card Image.jpg - 33kB
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[*] posted on 5-9-2012 at 02:19 PM


That Is very kind of you and I would be very grateful for that. I will U2U you shortly.
Maybe i will purchase the Necati record anyway on your advice, as it seems we share similar tastes.

Thanks again
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[*] posted on 5-10-2012 at 09:48 AM


Since we both like oud/vocal only recordings so much, I went home and looked though my collection and came up with a few more suggestions:

-Farid El Atrache - "Kelmet Itab" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMNeox8DV1I - Buy here (in USA, at least): http://www.buyarabic.com/storeItem.asp?ic=MUAR000032

-Zein L'Abdin - "2. Lohoya Kihindi " - http://www.amazon.com/Swahili-Song-Book-Zein-Labdin/dp/B00004W5AV/r... or: http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/abdin.html [in Swahili] This one may be out of print. I may be able to rip and email an MP3 of this song.

- Karim Mahmoud - "Master of Egyptian Music" - Hear samples & buy CD: http://www.israel-music.com/karim_mahmoud/egyptian_oud_vocal/ - Buy MP3 download: http://www.amazon.com/Egyptian-Oud-and-Vocal/dp/B0026GF3YO/ref=tmm_...

Over and out,
"Udi" John
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[*] posted on 5-11-2012 at 12:51 AM


Nothing to do with music, but I see that Bernard Lewis is mentioned in the thread, historian and orientalist extraordinaire. His book "The Muslim discovering Europe" (I read it in Italian and it was "I musulmani alla scoperta dell'Europa") was the stepping stone which started the whole journey which brought me to Arabic music, Islam, Sufism, and eventually the oud. I just want to pay my respect to the man :bowdown: , I hope he helped broaden many Westeners' minds as he did mine.......
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[*] posted on 5-11-2012 at 02:18 AM
hi


Hallo man, a little suggestion from me (if you still don't know) is KAMYLIA JUBRAN relate to her website for recordings titles. Hope u like her (she's not a traditional musician at all:bounce: bye manuel
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[*] posted on 5-11-2012 at 11:27 PM


Just a side topic, does anyone know where to purchase a copy of munir bashir Quartet?
i seem to have lost mine and would really like to get it back.

Sorry manueel but not really my thing, sounds good for what it is though.
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[*] posted on 5-12-2012 at 12:04 PM


Hi Bodhi,

Munir Bashir Quartet recording available from Buy Arabic/Tulumba in Brooklyn, NY, USA (don't know if they ship to UK): http://www.tulumba.com/storeitem.asp?TR=F&ic=MUAR000409

Tried to mail you the Abdulmajid Abdallah cassette yesterday. Was unable to do so because I was not allowed to use the Customs Form on the US Postal Service web page, after taking the trouble and time to fill it out and print it, per their web page's instructions. Damn $%#$#&$%#$%%^ Postal Service!!!! (Is UK's postal service like this, too?) Anyway, will try again next week.

Georgioud: Bernard Lewis is my "go-to" guy for Middle Eastern and Islamic studies, especially when I get into an argument with a politically conservative anti-Islam Westerner: If they won't believe that Islam isn't all bad when a Leftist or Muslim says so, maybe they will believe it when a fellow conservative non-Muslim Westerner says it.

Peace out,
"Udi" John
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[*] posted on 5-12-2012 at 12:27 PM


Thanks John,

I could only find mp3 and would really like the CD, so I hope they ship over here. We dont have to fill out too much customs forms just state the item and signature, anyway I appreciate you doing that and I don't mind to wait a bit longer.
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