| Pages:
1
2 |
Ashex
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 7-3-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
Help tuning an oddly strung Oud
Hello Everyone!
I've been interested in the Oud since I was little, my dad would listen to Hamza all the time and it's stuck with me. A year ago I told my wife I
wanted to play the Oud so while she was in Sudan she purchased one for me! I was trying to learn to play last year and tracked down a teacher who was
himself a bit inexperienced and discouraged me a bit. One of the problems we had was he didn't know how to tune my oud as it uses an unusual paring of
steel/nylon strings. I've tried a couple different tunings but it never held.
I'm picking it up again so I can play for my daughter when she arrives in September, can anyone suggest a tuning that would work best? I've included a
couple pictures of the Oud below.
 
|
|
|
Greg
Administrator
Posts: 926
Registered: 7-22-2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Serene
|
|
Hi Ashex,
Welcome to the forums. Arabic ouds strung in this way were normally tuned (bass to treble) G AA dd gg cc.
I am not sure what the most common tuning is in the Sudan, but the above tuning should serve you well.
in recent years, most folks use six courses and tune them C FF AA dd gg cc, but the nut on your instrument has been setup for five courses, so the
above tuning would probably be the most appropriate way to go. I am very surprised that someone who claims to be a teacher would not know how to tune
your oud.
Regards,
Greg
|
|
|
Ashex
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 7-3-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hi Greg,
Thanks for the information, I'll try that tuning and see how it works for me. When I go back to Sudan next year I'll try to find an Oud player and see
what advice he can provide me. I was also a bit surprised, the two lessons I had with him were primarily posture and playing notes, when I would get
into music theory he would get a bit confused.
I'm looking for a new teacher in the Seattle area right now and am hoping to find a more experienced player willing to assist me with learning.
Thanks again,
Ahmed
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
That's a lovely and original design on your oud. You really should start with some new strings. Measure the "scale", or length of string from nut to
bridge and let us know. If it's around 600 mm (+/- 15mm), then you can just buy regular oud strings, I like the inexpensive Daniel Maris, discard the
bass string and one of the 5th course strings, and tune as Greg is suggesting, with the top 2 courses plain nylon, and the bottom 3 courses
metal-wound. If you prefer the third course plain, you can use a pair of classical guitar strings. But if the scale is different, you may have to use
different strings or tuning.
I don't like the look of your nut. The strings in the top course look too far apart relative to the spacing between courses, and the overall spacing
doesn't take advantage of the full width of the fingerboard. That makes it hard to play. Thankfully, that nut should come out without much protest.
You could do the following. Go down to a guitar shop and get a bone nut blank that sort of fits, then shape and notch it (the strings should start out
about a business card's thickness above the fingerboard). Get two blanks, they are cheap and you might need the practice ;-) Read up on making nuts
and drilling bridges, this forum has a lot of information.
|
|
|
Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
|
|
Dear Ashex,
welcome to the Forum. I would like to give you my advice on the problem as I perceive it: it seems to me that the oud was strung for High Arabic
tuning, with the three unwound strings, and whoever strung it somewhat didn't carry on finishing it tuning, and/or realise there was something wrong
with it and left it as it was.
I'll explain: there are three types on fundamental tunings in the Arab-speaking world: Standard Arabic (6 courses), High Arabic (6 courses) and
Egyptian/Syrian (5 courses).
Without going too much into detail, check the tunings, from thinnest course to lowest single bass string. Notes in lower cases are for nylon strings
only, notes in capital letters are for wound string, copper or bronze:
Standard Arabic is
cc, gg, DD, AA, FF, C
Egyptian/Syrian is
cc, gg, DD, AA, F
(this is what applies to your oud, as it has 9 strings and 9 keys)
High Arabic is
ff, cc, gg, DD, AA, F
See this last one? the first three courses are nylon. In the previous two tunings, only the first two courses were nylon. It seems to me that whoever
put the strings on the oud was trying to tune it to ff, cc, gg (or possibly, by the look of the strings on you oud, they might even be gg, cc, cc, DD,
F.....not the right tuning at all....), and then realised he was one wound course short (possibly the AA?) and had to make do what what he had. So,
you cannot even tune to the 5-course Egyptian, as your oud should be tuned to, because said tuning has only two nylon strings and the rest are
wound.
The upshot of all this is that it seems to me that you've got an oud stringed in such a way that would make it uncomfortable to play and possibly even
be out of tune.
Your oud having 9 strings (and 9 pegs to tweak), the only option for you is to tune it to Egyptian, which is a great tuning. Best thing is to get a
new set all together. Trying to tune those strings to something resembling a "proper" tuning would end up damaging the bridge. Ouds are very delicate
like that, they are build to withstand only a certain amount of pressure.
By the way, it's a very beautiful oud, the design is typical of the ouds used in Sudan, Somalia, Yemen and southern Arabic peninsula. I bet it sounds
lovely. I sure would love to have an oud like that. So, congratulations to you for the ownership and to your wife for the thoughtful purchase.
You can order strings on Amazon, Ebay or an excellent site called Oudstrings http://www.oudstrings.com/ which provides a wide choice and support and a quick delivery (from America where they are based to England where I
live it took only 7 days).
If your oud has a low action (the action is the height of the strings from the fingerboard at the point where the neck joins the body. An acceptable
action is between 2.5 mm and 3. Higher than that and it becomes a bit difficult to play, as the strings are further away from the body), I really
suggest to put Pyramid high tension for Egyptian tuning. They sound great on a low-action oud. But if your oud has a high action, then it's imperative
to put low-action strings with a thin gauge. I suggest Galli for Standard Arabic (then you just need to throw away the low C and one A as you won't
need them on your oud).
If you're interested there are several sites dedicated to the oud and its tunings: Oud cafe http://www.oudcafe.com/ , another great site is this one, http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/ , and another one I really like is http://oudpage.tripod.com/intro.html . Just a few days ago, I provided a Forum member with a synopsis of the various tunings and its variants,
with a part dedicated to the Egyptian tuning (the one of your oud). I've done it for myself as much as for him, I have something I can print and keep
in front of me while I tweak the keys checking out all the various tunings. If you're interested, here it is http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=13093
Good experimentation!!!
P.S. it goes without saying that your oud was build exclusively for an Arabic-stryle tuning. The Turkish-style, being a whole tone higher, would
provide more tension to the bridge, which with the use would become unglued to the body, the nightmare scenario we all want to avoid..........
|
|
|
Ashex
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 7-3-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thank you all for the informative replies, the amount of knowledge and wisdom expressed is astounding! My wife did buy a spare set of strings for me,
I'll see if I can find them and replace the strings. Otherwise I'll measure the strings and but a new pair.
As fernandraynaud mentioned the spacing on the nut makes it difficult to hit all the strings. The Oud does have a very low action, I've included a pic
below of the spacing just below the nut, I had considered adding a soft piece of wood below the nut to raise it a little.
I believe my next course of action will be to try replacing the nut along with the strings. Restringing it won't be a problem (I've done it many times
with a violin), I'll have to work at getting the nut cut correctly so I'll look online for information regarding that.
Once again, thank you all for the wonderful help you have provided!
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
As fernand noted, the strings within a course are cut too far apart at the nut (not sure about at the bridge). I don't think that they overall spread
of the strings needs to be widened, just perhaps centered a bit better on the fingerboard.
Your action at the nut is fine, I wouldn't raise it. It should just be a hair above the fingerboard, about 0.5mm.
I agree that F AA dd gg c'c' is the most versatile tuning, a good set is the Pyramid #650 set (orange label). You'll wind up with one extra F string
(the set comes with 10 strings).
|
|
|
Ashex
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 7-3-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks for the clarification Brian, I was just about to ask about the strings as I wasn't 100% sure which to go with. I'll be purchasing this set. I agree the strings need to be centered a little more, when playing I was having trouble applying enough tension on the first string.
Edit: As a side note I managed to tune it to E, A, d, g, c but it kept falling out of tune (strings weren't moving across the nut smoothly so after I
tuned the unbalanced tension would shift making it fall out of tune again).
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
MEASURE THE SCALE! We are assuming that it's a standard ~ 600 mm scale, but it might not be. All string sets are gauged for a specific tuning at a
specific scale length. If the scale is shorter, it's safe to use standard strings, but the strings could be "flappy" at the lower tension. The 585 mm
Turkish oud is tuned a whole step higher "to compensate". On a longer scale you have to crank more tension to pull these same strings up to pitch, and
ouds don't like extra tension, so you might need thinner strings. It turns out that a cm or two makes a big difference. MEASURE!
And be very careful just trying tunings if you don't know the string gauges you have, or the scale. The typical tension on an oud string is around 3
kg, which is about half of what is used on a classical guitar, and a quarter of the tension on a steel-stringed "acoustic" guitar. If you're not
accustomed to what the strings SHOULD feel like, it's easy to tune way outside allowable tension, and it would be a shame to damage your instrument.
BTW, there are people (like Ameer) who prefer a plain 3rd course, regardless of tuning. It's not just used in the high "f" tuning.
|
|
|
Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
|
|
Wow, didn't know there were musicians who preferred a nylon 3rd course within an Egyptian or a Standard Arabic tuning. It's gotta be worth a try!
Thanks Fernand!
Ashex, I don't know if what I'm about to say can help but: after you have tuned the string just apply a bit of pressure with your index finger in
order to push the peg inside the hole. In some ouds the craftmanship regarding the pegs can be a bit shoddy (I have a Turkish oud which has a great
sound but this very Achille's heel), so when you need to turn the pegs for tuning, you need to push them slightly out, and then slightly in after you
reached the right pitch. But, as pushing them in makes them go slightly out of tune, it's useful to compensate a bit by tuning the string just ever so
slightly up. Maybe this video can say it in a much clearer way than I could ever do: check what the guy does from the third course (DD or RERE)
upwards http://youtu.be/f8zzRU2ALzg
|
|
|
ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 458
Registered: 9-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A nylon third gives more of a vintage sound for those of us into that kind of thing. If you listen to anything recorded before roughly 1990 you're
likely to hear it.
|
|
|
Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
|
|
Hi Ameer,
have you got a video of yourself performing by any chance? I'd love to see the effect of the un-wound third course.....
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Hey, Giorgi, is that your Youtube clip with the mix of Somali and Arabic styles?
Very nice combination (and bathrobe)! Just add some percussion and it'll
totally COOK!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plfVQxWhx-0
|
|
|
ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 458
Registered: 9-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I don't have a video on hand unfortunately, but here's some good audio that should give you an idea:
http://www.4shared.com/mp3/OoAlkV5I/taqasim_rast_Jan_7_2012.html
|
|
|
Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
|
|
Fernand,
wow, thanks, it is me indeed.....I am glad you like it, I am well chuffed......yeah, I'd love to add some percussion, you're right, it would benefit
immensely....I am playing with a tabla player at the moment, we're preparing a repertoire in order to start playing concerts, so, maybe, maybe.....but
thank you so much man, it means a lot your appreciation......the bathrobe is a necessary garment to be worn in the house in the midst of English
freezing winters (which was the time I recorded the clip), the heating's so expensive over here, you must switch it on only when you're turning
blue......
Ameer,
wow, impressive performance, there! I must say, I really savoured your taqsim rast. I see what you mean, when you pass from mibb to fa or sol there's
not the "swiissshh" so typical of the wound string....and yes, you're right, the old sound of Syria.....very cool, I think I'll give it a go in the
future....thanks for the tip!!!
|
|
|
Ashex
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 7-3-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
I finally got around to measured the scale, From the nut to the bridge is 510mm. I suppose I won't be buying regular Oud strings then?
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Ah, significant detail! Well it depends how you want to tune it. I'll check when I'm at a real computer, but you might be able to tune it up to high
f tuning with standard strings. The important thing is the intervals, ascending fourths, with the bass string adjustable.
|
|
|
Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
|
|
Fernand,
sorry to interject, but if he tunes it in the high f tuning, the tuning will be incomplete. The oud has 9 pegs. The pegbox is build to accomodate nine
pegs only and no more. It's a custom highly beloved in East Africa, Sudan and Yemen. They can do amazing things with just 5 courses, as you know full
well as an aficionado of Somali oudism (as I am).
So in high f tuning it would be: ff, cc, gg, DD, A.....it would miss the bass F.
By the same token he cannot tune it to "normal" Arabic. If he decides to add the bass C, it will be (from bass to thinnest strings) C, FF, AA, DD,
gg.....and he'd miss the high cc.....
In my opinion there's only one tuning which will fit this oud and it's the Egyptian/Syrian: (from thinnest to bass) cc, gg, DD, AA, F (which can be
tuned in E, G, and even in low D).
Unless I have missed something, in which case I apologise for the interjection......
Unless you meant to use the high f set of strings, and then tune the oud as normal and just leave out the high ff........I confess at this stage I'm a
bit confused.......
|
|
|
ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 458
Registered: 9-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I agree with Giorgi. Go with CFADGC. You will likely need thicker strings than normal unless you like the sound and feel of reduced tension. Once you
get it sorted out I'd love to hear a clip of how an oud at that scale length sounds.
|
|
|
londonoudi
Oud Maniac
Posts: 68
Registered: 1-1-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
By third course do you mean third from bottom or third from top?
in other words F A D G C F with the D being nylon?
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Of course a most useful tuning would be F AA DD gg cc. That's ascending, with big letters for wound strings. Ameer, he's only got 9 pegs. Common
gauges on the top two nylon oud string courses are 0.022" for the cc and 0.027" for the gg course. With a common scale of 610mm that gives us tensions
of 2.6 and 2.2 kg. That's comfortable. On Ashex's oud the scale is 510mm, so with these strings on this tuning we'll have 1.8 and 1.5 Kg which is
quite slack. Even without doing all the math, we can expect roughly a similar tension decrease on all the strings in a standard set used this way. Of
course one could try playing it that way, but I suspect it won't feel or sound great.
With a tighter oud set the top nylon strings would be 0.024" and 0.029", we're in 2.5-3 kg territory. The wound strings fall between 3.5-4kg.
One solution is to run all the calculations and buy the right individual strings to obtain tensions between 2.5-4 Kg. Or find out what people who have
such ouds tune to with what strings. Or get out the credit card and buy a cu$tom set.
Another solution would be to use a standard oud set and tune all the strings up some amount to get a comfortable tension.
The truth of the matter is that ouds are tuned in ascending fourths, but the absolute pitch was never considered important, it was moved to
accommodate singers and circumstances and not important unless playing with other instruments with very fixed preferences. The Turkish tradition where
RAST is D instead of C is another example. RAST seems to be thought of as a given position on the neck, not an absolute pitch. Still, it would make
playing with others easier to hit one of the common standards, and not just pull up some arbitrary amount.
With high ff tuning RAST moves down one course, at the same position on the neck.
I thought we might be able to reach A DD GG cc ff, which would be a high ff tuning on 5 courses, not a bad tuning. The bottom string gets frequently
retuned.
What we get by tuning the 0.022" to f on the first course is 3.3 kg, and the 0.027" tuned to c on the second gives 2.8 kg. The other strings probably
will come in around 2.9-4 kg, I can't find all my previous calculations and interpolations on the wound strings at the moment, but it's reasonably
plausible they would follow the same ratio.
But there's another solution, to get our beloved c tuning, that being to shift a standard oud set up a course, discarding the cc strings, moving the
3rd course DD strings to the 2nd course and tuning them GG, and moving the 2nd course gg strings to the first, and tuning them cc. We then get a
standard c tuning. I would expect the same kinds of tensions, in the 3-4 kg range as we are again pulling up by a fourth.
The only problem is that the second course is now wound instead of plain nylon. But we know that for a nylon 3rd course tuned dd on a 610mm scale a
0.038-0.039" nylon guitar g string works OK. So we could buy a couple of those for the second course and end up with a very standard set-up. In fact
calculation confirms the whole theory, the tension for a 0.038" nylon tuned to g on a 510 scale comes in around 3 kg. So this is the recipe I'd
try:
1. Buy a low tension oud set like a Daniel Mari, and also two plain nylon guitar g strings with a gauge around 0.038".
2. Set aside the top plain course, save for a rainy day.
3. Start installing the set with what was the packaged 2nd course onto the oud's first. That will be in the first course, tuned cc
4. For the 2nd course install the guitar nylons, that will be tuned gg. We set aside the packaged wound 3rd course.
5. For the 3rd and 4th courses use the 4th and 5th courses from the oud set. Those will be tuned DD and AA.
For the bass string use the single bass string from the oud set. That will be generally be tuned F or E or D.
Granted, we are a little higher on tension this way, that's why we picked a low tension oud set. If the 3-4 kg tension range feels tight on the
instrument, one could drop it down a half step or two as some people like anyway, but unless the instrument is very fragile it should work fine. You
could first try just using a standard set as-is and see if it's playable with standard c tuning, and you could look for a high tension set to begin
with. If that's no fun, try the "shifted course" recipe with a low tension set.
Whaddya think? We need to double check this before trying it.
|
|
|
ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 458
Registered: 9-14-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
^Another possibility is to get a standard oud set, ditch both nylons, and get the thinnest wound string you can get for high C. I don't know how well
it will work out but It would conceivably be the epitome of consistency.
|
|
|
Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
|
|
Wow,
Fernand, a mind-blowing effort on your part, I doff my cap to you. But I still mantain that, at least as a start and only for the early times,
simplicity is the key. Such a low action as the pictures testifies, I'd go for the Pyramid orange set for Egyptian tuning (high tension). It worked
wonders for my Turkish oud which has a very low action and it always ended up, even with good string sets, having no volume. But now with the Pyramid
it really sings.
Then, once the oud is played a bit and gets that "lived in" sound, your last post can be duly printed and stuck in front of Ashex, ready to be
consulted at a whim and acted upon.
As per always, Fernand, you didn't disappoint...
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Thanks Giorgio, he's just going to have to try. Of course if a standard c tuning with a standard set has enough tension for Ashex, that's great. I use
the rather light Thomastik bass flatwounds on my shortscale fretless, and it's a specific feel, but fine. We don't run into a lot of ouds with such a
short scale, he'll tell us how it works. Just one thought: I'm a big fan of Daniel Maris because every time I remember I paid $9 for such a nice set
of strings it makes me smile.
Ameer's idea of going all-wounds is intriguing. He could also keep the packaged 3rd wound course for the gg and use a PVC 0.024" for the cc for a
(similarly) bright top.
@Brian what would you suggest as a heavy set that he could use as-is tuned to cc?
|
|
|
Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudbsessed
|
|
It's a rather beautiful oud, Ashex's one, you don't get to see many of those types in Europe (or I suspect, in the States), and you know, in my
opinion the uneven way the in-lays for the strings are cut in the nut just adds to the charm. I hope it will be loved and cherished, as I am sure it
will be.....
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
