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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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Wittner oriental pegs
Hi
As you may know, Wittner company has started making mechanical fine-tuned pegs specialized for oriental instruments, focusing on Iranian instruments:
Kamanche, Tar, Setar, Saz(Divan), Azeri Tar
I really wonder why they haven't made such these pegs for the Oud, as im sure they will sell pegs for Oud more than any other oriental instrument.
All they have done is changing the dimensions and color. I would buy those pegs happily if i was a Tar or Kamanche player, but im sure there are a lot
of players who like to keep the original shape of the peg head. i wonder why they haven't change its shape.
you can see those oriental models here. maybe we should make a cause and ask wittner to make special pegs for Oud.
p.s. im gonna buy a set of pegs for my next oud. it would be great if an oud maker tell me which model is the best choice for oud(i mean it's size)
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Viola sized pegs can work. But Oud pegs are normally sized shorter as you progress away from the nut. So ideally you'd use at least 3 different
lengths, since I don't suppose you will be trimming your FineTune pegs. And how heavy are these? That's been an issue in the past with planetary gear
pegs.
I've sent them a message asking what they have in a 12 peg set for oud.
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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as i've heard from Khalaf's customers, 12 of these pegs weigh as much as 13 ebony pegs. some makers here have used violin version on their ouds (it's
the only model available in Tehran). but naturally the best result happens when they design a special set for oud.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Here is what Ms. Sabrina Wittner says:
We're happy to learn that you're interested in our Finetune-Pegs. As far as we know our Finetune-Pegs are often used for the Oud. Attached please find
an information sheet showing all important dimensions of our Finetune-Pegs so that you can check if they're suitable for your instrument. According
to
our experience always one of the Saz Pegs as at the bottom of the information sheet is used for the Oud.
It's unfortunately not possible to buy our products directly from us since we supply distributors only and since we've set up distribution in the USA.
We ask for your kind understanding. Please contact one of our US-wholesalers for price information. Below please find the address of our distributor
in the USA carrying also the Saz-Finetune-Pegs:
Nova Strings, Inc. Tel. 240-631 1955
8548 Anniversary Circle Fax 240-631 1958
Gaithersburg, MD 20877 info@novastrings.com
We're sure Messrs. Nova Strings will help you with your request. In case you need any further assistance please let us know.
Best regards,
Sabrina Wittner
So I said ... "Very kind of you. One of the issues is that oud pegs are normally different lengths, they become shorter as you go further away from
the nut in the pegbox. This is for aesthetic reasons, but the pegbox also narrows ... Weight?"
So she said:
The Finetune-Pegs can be cut till the length min x on our dimension sheet. I don't know if this is short enough also for the narrow end of the
pegbox?
Unfortunately we don't know the weight of ebony Oud pegs but we can of course give you the weight of our Saz-Finetune-Pegs:
2704M-SAZ-BR: Weight approximately: 0,008 kgs
2704L-SAZ-BR: Weight approximately: 0,009 kgs
Attachment: 270-Saz-Tar-Masstabelle2011.pdf (179kB)
This file has been downloaded 615 times
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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OK, Nova sells wholesale only, to retailers and luthiers. Retail price on the Saz pegs is about $30 per peg. Wholesale is $13.25. So a Luthier could
fit 11 such pegs (plus a 12th dummy ebony peg) for about $150 plus labor. Not impossible. Who's going to be the first to offer a new oud with such
pegs? The gentleman at Nova is Ken.
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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i guess she is talking about Tar pegs not Saz pegs. Saz pegs are useless on the oud becoz they have one constant side which doesn't fit on the Oud's
peg box. she also has sent Tar sheet and mentioned the last one in the info page which is Tar pegs.
Thanx for sharing. i'll call my luthier.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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Tar large pegs also has a shape which i really don't like to have on my oud. they look like Tar pegs  also it's head is 31mm long which i believe it's a little too big for an oud peg. these are the reasons i say it's
necessary to have the pegs be designed for oud.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Wittner geared fintune pegs for Oud
Though I'm a big fan of wood for musical instruments, especially when ouds are involved, I had the pleasure to experience Wittner synthetic geared
finetune pegs.
A whole timber acoustic instrument always drew my attention and admiration, till I once hoped for wooden strings, if that was just possible. But the
tuning issue of the oud kept annoying me, like it does to every one else, so I started looking around for solutions to this intractable trouble,
leaving aside my passion for wood.
I liked the solution suggested by both Wittner and Knilling for a geared finetune peg, and most liked the quotation from a veteran
player saying something like: if those pegs were available 20 years ago, I would have saved 5 years tuning !
Therefore I had one set for viola from Wittner (preferring them over Knilling) fit in my son's 10 pegs oud, encouraging him to tune his oud by
himself. 8.6 mm/0.34" 1:30 taper were chosen for this oud as a trial. Now I'm buying the other 6 for the rest.
Take a look !
After I had tried them, I found that this is one of the most important invention after the oud itself. Once they are fixed in the peg
box, as demonstrated by the attached explanatory sheet, the player would never have a tuning problem any more. The oud turns to be as easy to tune as
the geared famous guitar machines, soft and supple, nice and easy. What a great patent indeed.
The problem though is their prices. For a couple of thousands value stringed instrument like violins, violas and celli, players may afford to spend a
hundred on pegs, but for 100-300 $ ouds around the Arab World, you just can't spend 300 $ on pegs.
I tried to convince Mrs. Sabrina from Wittner that a reduced price oud set could be a great hit in the oud-land, but she said this's not possible,
unless we go China "and we won't go". *
The cheapest oud-set of Wittner would cost at least 300 $ a set, what makes it absolutely out of question in developing (a nicer word for poor) Arab
countries. Players from the gulf may afford much more than Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi or Palestinian players can, but the majority just can't.
On the other side of the planet, a friend of mine in Miami tried to make a deal with Knilling and didn't have much luck either. The minimum for such
geared planetary fintune peg set for an oud would be at least 200 $, much less than Wittner, but still very expensive for the Middle East, taking into
consideration the very high shipping costs from USA worldwide.
In short, These pegs are just incredible and fair price for a violin/viola/cello, but very expensive for our 12 pegs ouds.
If Wittner is not going to China, maybe we should. Any ideas ?
Play your ouds, with or without these sophisticated .. planetary .. geared .. fine-tuners … whatever!
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
[file]26800[/file] [file]26804[/file]
* Mrs. Sabrina continued: "It seems there’s a gap due to given facts, which just can’t be overcome at the time being: The price for an Oud in
general and compared with the price for our pegs and resulting hereof the demand for much cheaper pegs on one side – and the manufacturing reality
in Germany (high wages, high taxes, high energy and production costs) on the other side".
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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you see Alfaraby, that's their mistake. it's not all about middle east. you tell me, how much does an oud by Faruk Turunz usually worth? how about
Matthias Wagner? or Faik Mohammad Fadel?
That's my point. although these pegs are not usually used on cheap ouds, there are still a lot of oud experts who would like to have these pegs on
their professional expensive ouds. so they deserve to have it designed for their instrument.
and i agree. we need a hero out there to go to china.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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Another option is "pegheds". http://www.pegheds.com/index.htm
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luan
Oud Junkie
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Those look awesome. Really awesome.
But, too expensive 
I really can't afford that much just for tuners, considering that I would pay more just for traditional look, when there are a lot of other options,
that don't look that much great, but are great too. Some of them even have a better ratio (how precise you can be in each turn of the peg) than the
traditional and this tuners.
The cheaper and excellent option I saw, are those ones:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Ukulele_tuners/Grover_Ukulele_Tu...
They are individual, small mechanical tuners, which have a 14:1 ratio (instead of 1:1 like the ouds) which is better.
Closer to the traditional look there is this option:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Ukulele_tuners/Grover_Champion_D...
I believe they have a 1:1 ratio but i'm not sure. I will try them on an oud I will get and will do a review of how they work on the oud.
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Thanks friends.
To be clear: I wasn't promoting this peg or another. Whittner, Knilling, Pegheds etc. All are fine. It's the idea/concept that matters. I shared my
experience with you in order to show how great it was/is. I think that every professional player should try a set on one oud, at least once and
experience those marvelous pegs.
Enjoy
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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luan, what do you mean by "(instead of 1:1 like the ouds)"?
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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luan
Oud Junkie
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In a oud, violin, cello and viola, every time you make a turn on the peg, the tuner makes one turn on the other side where the string grabs it. On a
guitar tuner, each time you make one turn, the tuner makes the other side of it turn a 18th part of a turn (or a number close to that), so you can be
more precise. I hope it's clear, since english is not my first language.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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thanks for your answer.
But why is 18:1 better then oud pegs? in oud peg you can (in theory) tune it exact. Is that the case with guitar pegs?
Is it not the case that guitar pegs make some small "jumps"?
i.e. 18:1 means that the jump is 18/360?
THis is a little jump, still it is a jump, and hence LESS precise then oud peg??
can you please clarify?
Thanks again
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Luttgutt,
An oud peg moves at 1 to 1, which means that one full turn of the peg will move it 360 degrees, i.e., one full turn.
An 18 to 1 ratio means that one full turn of the peg will move it 1/18 of that, or 20 degrees, i.e., 1/18th of a turn.
So it capable of movements 18 times more precise than a regular peg.
Let's say the smallest amount you can turn an oud peg is 9 degrees (hypothetically). Then with a geared peg at 18:1, the smallest amount would now be
1/2 of a degree.
Personally, I think the bigger problems occur at the nut 90% of the time. Such pegs would be nice but nut improvements would help a lot more. Or
flat-wound or half-round strings so the windings don't catch on the nut.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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Does that mean that guitar gir turns "continuously"?
I always thought that it makes small jumps (as small as the "teeth" on the wheel, if you know what I mean. I don't know the right terminology).
While theretically, the oud pegs can turn continuously", giving more prices tuning, at least ideally.
where am I wrong?
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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abc123xyz
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt  | | I always thought that it makes small jumps (as small as the "teeth" on the wheel, if you know what I mean. I don't know the right terminology).
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No, it turns smoothly. The teeth of the gear do no more than provide the rotating screw surfaces which which to push the gear, and before one gear
tooth has been pushed out of range another has already come into contact with the screw, so that rotation is continuous, not incremental.
The worm-gear arrangement diverts the force of the string sideways against the screw, which means that, whereas the turning of the screw can
turn the gear that tightens the string, the opposite is not true, and the tension of the string cannot act to turn the screw. Therefore no friction
between the peg shaft and its bearing is necessary to maintain tension on the string, and so a mechanical tuner turns more easily, and more smoothly,
than a friction peg.
Even operating at its smoothest, a friction peg works by being "gripped" by the wood of the peg box, and thus prevented from being rotated by the
string tension, until sufficient force is exterted to overcome that friction, at which point the peg makes a tiny partial turn, after which its motion
is again checked by friction. So it is friction pegs which in fact operate by making numerous small incremental movements.
Finely adjusting anything with the human hand is always a problem of converting a large ("gross") movement into a small ("fine") one. With 18:1
mechanical tuners, twisting the finger grip one time around results in the string-bearing shaft making only 1/18 of a turn, a large motion being
converted into a smaller one, which naturally makes it easier to fine tune.
The larger the ratio, the greater capacity for fine tuning, though at some point the accuracy gained is beyond what is necessary, and the extra time
required to get a newly installed string up to tension becomes a nuisance itself.
David
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abc123xyz
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This animation might make the principle easier to understand 
http://royalmechanical.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/worm_gear.gif
David
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Brian Prunka
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Just to add to David's excellent explanation, here is a video of turning a guitar tuner where I marked a spot on the gear so you can see the movement
as I turn the peg:
video
You'll notice that in 7 1/2 turns, it goes almost halfway around. This suggests that the ratio is somewhere around 16:1. A friction peg would have
gone around 7 1/2 times, of course. As in David's animation, the motion is smooth and continuous.
As David notes, the fact that friction is required to hold the peg in place makes perfectly smooth adjustment impossible.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by abc123xyz | | Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt | | I always thought that it makes small jumps (as small as the "teeth" on the wheel, if you know what I mean. I don't know the right terminology).
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No, it turns smoothly. The teeth of the gear do no more than provide the rotating screw surfaces which which to push the gear, and before one gear
tooth has been pushed out of range another has already come into contact with the screw, so that rotation is continuous, not incremental.
The worm-gear arrangement diverts the force of the string sideways against the screw, which means that, whereas the turning of the screw can
turn the gear that tightens the string, the opposite is not true, and the tension of the string cannot act to turn the screw. Therefore no friction
between the peg shaft and its bearing is necessary to maintain tension on the string, and so a mechanical tuner turns more easily, and more smoothly,
than a friction peg.
Even operating at its smoothest, a friction peg works by being "gripped" by the wood of the peg box, and thus prevented from being rotated by the
string tension, until sufficient force is exterted to overcome that friction, at which point the peg makes a tiny partial turn, after which its motion
is again checked by friction. So it is friction pegs which in fact operate by making numerous small incremental movements.
Finely adjusting anything with the human hand is always a problem of converting a large ("gross") movement into a small ("fine") one. With 18:1
mechanical tuners, twisting the finger grip one time around results in the string-bearing shaft making only 1/18 of a turn, a large motion being
converted into a smaller one, which naturally makes it easier to fine tune.
The larger the ratio, the greater capacity for fine tuning, though at some point the accuracy gained is beyond what is necessary, and the extra time
required to get a newly installed string up to tension becomes a nuisance itself.
David
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Wow! Thanks a lot. That was very clear (even for me )
But now I have a new question:
Since the movement on the giutar peg is continuous anyway, why would, say, a ratio of 18:1 be more precise then 6:1? Since both turn smoothly, what
makes the difference?
Thanks again!!
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Because you can make smaller movements. Think of it this way: our hand and the peg have a limit on how small we can make a movement, let say it's one
degree (hypothetically).
On a 1:1 tuner (like a peg), under ideal conditions, the shaft would also turn one degree. Let's say (again hypothetically) that this causes the
string's pitch to rise 2 cents.
On a 6:1 tuner, the same movement would cause the shaft to turn 1/6 of a degree, and the pitch to rise 1/3 of a cent.
On an 18:1 tuner, the same movement would cause the shaft to turn 1/18 of a degree, and the pitch to rise 1/9 of a cent.
This is pretty much the definition of "precision".
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luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 157
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What are your opinion guys on this?
I want to use one of the Grover models for ukulele in my new oud, which one would you suggest me to use?
https://www.grotro.com/Grover/DULCIMER-TENOR-GUITAR-VIOLIN/Champion-...
https://www.grotro.com/Grover/DULCIMER-TENOR-GUITAR-VIOLIN/Champion-...
https://www.grotro.com/Grover/UKULELE/Sta-Tite-Pegs-Set-of-4
https://www.grotro.com/Grover/UKULELE/Champion-Pegs-Set-of-4
https://www.grotro.com/Grover/UKULELE/5f062e9e-cd64-42c1-b56e-9fde3a...
Thanks!
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Please don't !
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 157
Registered: 11-25-2011
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Ok
Send me the money to pay for the wittner ones and I will use them
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