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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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metal fingerboard?
Has anyone heard of an oud with a metal fingerboard???
If yes, how does it sound?
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Fritz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 246
Registered: 6-14-2012
Location: Northest Germany
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Hi E.P.
I´ve never heard of an Oud made with a metal fingerboard... metal frets are known on an Oud... but a metal fingerboard ? I thing, it would be far far
far away from traditional oud-making to use such unusual materials. The word "oud" means "wood", and so and only so an oud has to be made of 
The physics of a metal board on the neck will be as a break... the vibrations can´t go through the wood, the sonic-waves will be destructed in the
difference of the two materials. I´d never try such a thing indeed.
The sound will be taken down to a smaller range of frequency ... not the whole wideness of possible sound is given I think. Such an Oud will perhaps
make a clear sound in higher pitches, but the sound will not live...
An Oud is good as it is... if it´s made like an Oud !
Innovations are good... but they have to make sense )
Greetings
Fritz
Music is the food for the soul
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Quote: Originally posted by Fritz  | Hi E.P.
I´ve never heard of an Oud made with a metal fingerboard... metal frets are known on an Oud... but a metal fingerboard ? I thing, it would be far far
far away from traditional oud-making to use such unusual materials. The word "oud" means "wood", and so and only so an oud has to be made of
The physics of a metal board on the neck will be as a break... the vibrations can´t go through the wood, the sonic-waves will be destructed in the
difference of the two materials. I´d never try such a thing indeed.
The sound will be taken down to a smaller range of frequency ... not the whole wideness of possible sound is given I think. Such an Oud will perhaps
make a clear sound in higher pitches, but the sound will not live...
An Oud is good as it is... if it´s made like an Oud !
Innovations are good... but they have to make sense )
Greetings
Fritz
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I agree with you that to make an actually real oud with a metal fingerboard would not seem to make any sense since an oud sounds great as it is...
...however what I have in mind is trying a metal fingerboard on the "oud neck" of my RAGMAKAMTAR which is sort of a double neck oud -- one neck oud
and the other neck sarod. A sarod is a bit like an oud with metal strings and a metal finger board.
Normally I use a material called "trespa" for both fingerboards... trespa looks like ebony but is more hard. It is made from wood fiber and epoxy
resin. This material works well for both nylon and steel strings.
But for my next ragmakamtar I am thinking to use a brass fingerboard for the sarod which will sound great.... but my girlfriend actually suggested
to use brass for BOTH necks simply because that would LOOK amazing.
So I am just checking to see if anyone has tried something like this...
...anyway you are probably right that it will not work - but in a couple of days I will try it out and we will know for sure :-) I have a walnut and
an aluminum fingerboard prepared and will try them both out on the new instrument... I am afraid that wound bass strings might give off a bit of a
harsh sound as they buzz against the metal. . . . . . . but anyway for this new instrument I am looking for a very bright sound - so who
know?
I let you know how it works.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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Fritz, first of all I want to say how lovely your ouds are. A lot of care and skill went into these. Now i am going to disagree with you about the
universal non-functioning of metal fingerboards. Many banjos in America have metal finger boards. The sarode and sursringar of India have metal
fingerboards. All these instrument are acoustically functional. The first Indian metal fingerboards were flat and were made of recycled blades of hand
saws that were used to cut down saplings (teeth removed of course). Later they were flanged and curved and fastened to the sides of the neck. In the
case of sarode the neck and body are carved from one block of wood. In sursringar the neck and body are not the same, as the body is a gourd. In both
cases the neck is hollow so the metal board serves as a soundboard to a certain extent. In the case of banjo, the neck and body are separate. But
although it works on these fretless instruments I don't think a metal fingerboard would be good for oud. But maybe that is just my prejudice. You
know Richard Hagopian and other Armenian-American oud player stop the strings not with the pads of the fingers of the left hand, but with the
fingernails. That is the same with the instruments I mentioned. The nail is a substitute for a fret. Hard nail, hard board, but also hard string.
These instruments have steel strings except for 19th century banjos which were gut strung.
Edward: I've seen several American banjos with brass fingerboards. They work well and sound good but they tarnish easily and quickly so they don't
always look good after all.
| Quote: Originally posted by Fritz | Hi E.P.
I´ve never heard of an Oud made with a metal fingerboard... metal frets are known on an Oud... but a metal fingerboard ? I thing, it would be far far
far away from traditional oud-making to use such unusual materials. The word "oud" means "wood", and so and only so an oud has to be made of
The physics of a metal board on the neck will be as a break... the vibrations can´t go through the wood, the sonic-waves will be destructed in the
difference of the two materials. I´d never try such a thing indeed.
The sound will be taken down to a smaller range of frequency ... not the whole wideness of possible sound is given I think. Such an Oud will perhaps
make a clear sound in higher pitches, but the sound will not live...
An Oud is good as it is... if it´s made like an Oud !
Innovations are good... but they have to make sense )
Greetings
Fritz
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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Hi Jody,
I was also going to say something similar in support for the metal fingerboard - but I hesitate more these days to openly disagree with people (unless
I know them). But yes - I don't see any reason why a metal fingerboard would block frequencies. . . . however, Fritz still may be right - the thing
needs to be tested, then we will know for sure.
I have tested a nylon string on a metal board and it sounded great... I also tested a wound string and it sounded good but the action was very very
high - so I feel the real test will be using low Turkish action with a metal fingerboard. . . let's see (hear) how that will sound.
Actually I put a brass (or bronze) fingerboard on a fretless guitar about 13 years ago and it still looks great. It is true that it does need to be
polished every couple of years but that is no big deal. I guess chrome is ideal in terms of low maintenance.... but the gold colour of brass is
amazing.
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Mood: Oudbsessed
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Fritz,
first and foremost, thanks for your e-mail detailing the prices of the ouds. I cannot believe that some of those beauties are not as expensive as one
would expect, considering that they are perfect! I'm gonna have to start doing some serious saving up! I want one of those! Ahhh bummer man, if I had
met you two months ago, I'd have one of your ouds by now, but alas.....
Your expounding on the oud and the wood is flawless and cannot be argued. However, I urge you to check Edward's site because he's built some very
unusual stringed instruments which are very innovative and effective, and also esthetically very pleasing to the eye. In other words, although they
don't deviate, in terms of nomenclature and dynamics, from the "Eastern" tradition, they manage to enrich it greatly......and they really do sound
great.......
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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Thanks Giorgi for your kind words... I just checked out Fritz's site and man those ouds look amazing! Bravo!
I think Fritz perhaps misunderstood slightly in my question - certainly a 2mm thick metal fingerboard on an oud would be absurd... but what I am
going to try is a 0.5mm thick piece of brass glued to a 2mm thick piece of maple. Still of course even this might cause some sort of blockage of
frequencies. . . (?) . . .on the other hand the effect might produce some unexpected pleasant results. If there is anything I do know for sure, and
that is that it is never enough simply to go on theories and speculation alone - new ideas need to be tried and tested before discarded.
For example when I first had the idea to try to make a double neck with one neck nylon and the other neck steel string, everyone told me that this can
never work. After 8 times trying I almost gave up on the idea assuming that what they all told me was finally correct..... however I feel that
ragmakamtar version #9 has a very good sound on both the nylon and the steel string necks. . . which just goes to show that commonly accepted
theories can be wrong.
For those interested, here are two clips comparing both necks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2gOcczf7IM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXDM8TEvPQk
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Fritz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 246
Registered: 6-14-2012
Location: Northest Germany
Member Is Offline
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I agree with you that to make an actually real oud with a metal fingerboard would not seem to make any sense since an oud sounds great as it is...
...however what I have in mind is trying a metal fingerboard on the "oud neck" of my RAGMAKAMTAR which is sort of a double neck oud -- one neck oud
and the other neck sarod. A sarod is a bit like an oud with metal strings and a metal finger board.
Normally I use a material called "trespa" for both fingerboards... trespa looks like ebony but is more hard. It is made from wood fiber and epoxy
resin. This material works well for both nylon and steel strings.
But for my next ragmakamtar I am thinking to use a brass fingerboard for the sarod which will sound great.... but my girlfriend actually suggested
to use brass for BOTH necks simply because that would LOOK amazing.
So I am just checking to see if anyone has tried something like this...
...anyway you are probably right that it will not work - but in a couple of days I will try it out and we will know for sure :-) I have a walnut and
an aluminum fingerboard prepared and will try them both out on the new instrument... I am afraid that wound bass strings might give off a bit of a
harsh sound as they buzz against the metal. . . . . . . but anyway for this new instrument I am looking for a very bright sound - so who
know?
I let you know how it works.
[/ rquote]
Hi again :-)
I have seen your extraordinary instruments before, now I realize, that it´s You here.
Thanks for the nice statement about my Ouds :-)
I´m also interestet in unusual instruments... and when reading your text... it makes another picture in my head... a very thin "coating" with a sheet
of massive metal would work... but the mass has to be low... How are you glueing the metal on wood ? 2-component-glue ? It hast to be very rigid...
Bronce seems to be a good choice, brass is too sensible against stain, I never would suggest aluminium
Make your experience... and ofcourse share the results :-)
Fritz :-)
Music is the food for the soul
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Fritz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 246
Registered: 6-14-2012
Location: Northest Germany
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| Quote: Originally posted by Giorgioud | Fritz,
first and foremost, thanks for your e-mail detailing the prices of the ouds. I cannot believe that some of those beauties are not as expensive as one
would expect, considering that they are perfect! I'm gonna have to start doing some serious saving up! I want one of those! Ahhh bummer man, if I had
met you two months ago, I'd have one of your ouds by now, but alas.....
Your expounding on the oud and the wood is flawless and cannot be argued. However, I urge you to check Edward's site because he's built some very
unusual stringed instruments which are very innovative and effective, and also esthetically very pleasing to the eye. In other words, although they
don't deviate, in terms of nomenclature and dynamics, from the "Eastern" tradition, they manage to enrich it greatly......and they really do sound
great....... |
Hi Giorgioud :-)
Ofcourse I checked his site... and I "know" him a long time... as I´m allways looking for homemade unusual instruments !
But I didn´t realize fast enough, that he ist the one I know :-)
Now I remember :-)))
Fritz :-)
Music is the food for the soul
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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well in a matter of perhaps hours I will know if it will work or not - at least with aluminum.
if aluminum will sound good, I will go buy the more expensive sheet.
I guess 0.5mm is the thinnest I could go - and thicker would be too heavy.
Perhaps metal might interfere with some resonance - I'm not sure, but my main worry is that with very low action the buzzing might be way too metalic
. . . but it must be tried to know for sure.
Anyhow it is all just about cosmetics since TWO shiny gold fingerboards would look amazing...
The way I glue it is very fast, easy, cheap and unconventional ...... I put a 5mm wide band of contact cement around the outer edges of both sides
to be glued - then I saturate the area inside the 5mm bands with super glue (!), then I just put the two sides together (the 0.5mm metal and the 2mm
wood. The nice thing about this method is the contact cement holds it in position immediately, and then the CA glue squeezes to saturate the entire
surface, and holds tight like a mother once it is dry (25minutes).
Of course I clamp it between two very flat boards to be sure that the final surface is totally flat because metal can not be tweeked like wood (this
is the main disadvantage).
Will let you know how it sounds....
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Fritz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 246
Registered: 6-14-2012
Location: Northest Germany
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | Fritz, first of all I want to say how lovely your ouds are. A lot of care and skill went into these. Now i am going to disagree with you about the
universal non-functioning of metal fingerboards. Many banjos in America have metal finger boards. The sarode and sursringar of India have metal
fingerboards. All these instrument are acoustically functional. The first Indian metal fingerboards were flat and were made of recycled blades of hand
saws that were used to cut down saplings (teeth removed of course). Later they were flanged and curved and fastened to the sides of the neck. In the
case of sarode the neck and body are carved from one block of wood. In sursringar the neck and body are not the same, as the body is a gourd. In both
cases the neck is hollow so the metal board serves as a soundboard to a certain extent. In the case of banjo, the neck and body are separate. But
although it works on these fretless instruments I don't think a metal fingerboard would be good for oud. But maybe that is just my prejudice. You
know Richard Hagopian and other Armenian-American oud player stop the strings not with the pads of the fingers of the left hand, but with the
fingernails. That is the same with the instruments I mentioned. The nail is a substitute for a fret. Hard nail, hard board, but also hard string.
These instruments have steel strings except for 19th century banjos which were gut strung.
Edward: I've seen several American banjos with brass fingerboards. They work well and sound good but they tarnish easily and quickly so they don't
always look good after all.
| Quote: Originally posted by Fritz | Hi E.P.
I´ve never heard of an Oud made with a metal fingerboard... metal frets are known on an Oud... but a metal fingerboard ? I thing, it would be far far
far away from traditional oud-making to use such unusual materials. The word "oud" means "wood", and so and only so an oud has to be made of
The physics of a metal board on the neck will be as a break... the vibrations can´t go through the wood, the sonic-waves will be destructed in the
difference of the two materials. I´d never try such a thing indeed.
The sound will be taken down to a smaller range of frequency ... not the whole wideness of possible sound is given I think. Such an Oud will perhaps
make a clear sound in higher pitches, but the sound will not live...
An Oud is good as it is... if it´s made like an Oud !
Innovations are good... but they have to make sense )
Greetings
Fritz
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Hi Judy :-)
Thanks for the nice state, it´s a pleasure to see my ouds are liked :-)
You might be right, but I haven´t seen (and touched) enough instruments like them with metal parts. I know a sarod, ofcourse a banjo... and just like
the cümbüs (Turkey) many instruments have parts of metal.
Perhaps people like E.Powell will sometimes innovate an instrument, or create a really new one... in this aspect they have to be helped as one can
:-)
It´s good to read your arguments, and the honest words :-)
Keep doing this :-)
Fritz
Music is the food for the soul
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Fritz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 246
Registered: 6-14-2012
Location: Northest Germany
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| Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell | Hi Jody,
I was also going to say something similar in support for the metal fingerboard - but I hesitate more these days to openly disagree with people (unless
I know them). But yes - I don't see any reason why a metal fingerboard would block frequencies. . . . however, Fritz still may be right - the thing
needs to be tested, then we will know for sure.
I have tested a nylon string on a metal board and it sounded great... I also tested a wound string and it sounded good but the action was very very
high - so I feel the real test will be using low Turkish action with a metal fingerboard. . . let's see (hear) how that will sound.
Actually I put a brass (or bronze) fingerboard on a fretless guitar about 13 years ago and it still looks great. It is true that it does need to be
polished every couple of years but that is no big deal. I guess chrome is ideal in terms of low maintenance.... but the gold colour of brass is
amazing. |
Edward :-)
Please do not hesitate to tell me your opinion, if I agree or not... say, what you want to say !
How else do I really know what you mean ?
I am new here in this forum... if somebody has to hesitate posting "dis-agrees"... it´s me !
I am building my instruments in a very traditional way... I always have to do with traditions. So I "automatically" disagree with all not compatible
to tradition :-)
I´ve a lot to learn, and where else could it be so comfortable like it is here in this forum... under people with the same (or nearly the same)
passions :-))
Best regards :-)
Fritz
Music is the food for the soul
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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well, on a forum one never knows about another member until one has had some interaction with them --- sometimes people just like to be
confrontational just for the fun of it --- but obviously you are not like that so I will speak my mind.
I think you made great points in your original comment - and I should have made it clear that I am not thinking about doing this on a normal oud - and
also the metal will be extremely thin.
However, I do think that sometimes the word "traditional" also gets misunderstood. Sometimes people take traditional to mean stagnant. I don't
completely agree with this. A real living tradition is always changing and growing and accepting and rejecting ideas all the time. So a metal
fingerboard on an oud, in my opinion, might not be completely untraditional. If it really worked, and there would be great reasons for doing it - then
it could be incorporated into the tradition, and thereby become actually traditional :-)
Man, words can get us into trouble sometimes )))
BTW I have the greatest and utmost respect for what you are doing! Keeping the old tradition alive - building ouds old school - and doing it really
really well - is making a great contribution! Keep it going bro!
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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| Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell | well, on a forum one never knows about another member until one has had some interaction with them --- sometimes people just like to be
confrontational just for the fun of it --- but obviously you are not like that so I will speak my mind.
I think you made great points in your original comment - and I should have made it clear that I am not thinking about doing this on a normal oud - and
also the metal will be extremely thin.
However, I do think that sometimes the word "traditional" also gets misunderstood. - then it could be incorporated into the tradition, and thereby
become actually traditional :-)
Man, words can get us into trouble sometimes )))
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I anticipate an indirect, unvoiced, implied, tacit timidity clinged to everyone when anything apart from "traditional" is the case.
Why?
Oud making art has missed the development era of western instruments. They have reached to their climax for at least 4 centuries.
Once I was trying to reveal my findings on the oud soundboard frequencies at an international forum; one of the attendees, who was/is a very famous
oud maker made a remark after I had spoken. He said " Mr. Türünz is talking about some physical relations between the frequencies and the oud
"table". The westerners have long found out these things. All we need is to translate their books into Arabic..."
The knowledge pond of the oud craftsmanship is very shallow yet. All researches and innovations and innovative proposals should be welcomed according
to my perception.
I would bravely affirm a "metal fingerboard" provided that it is made of stainless steel or any other stainless metal (the best is gold)
The amount of energy converted to heat by the neck of an instrument appertaining to the "lute family" is proportionally great as the length of the
neck ascends. So, a neck reinforced by a metal fingerboard decreases the amount of energy inevitably doomed to get lost as heat thus,
much more amount of the given energy to the instrument is converted to vibration movement in the resonant areas of the soundboard and the vessel
grows.
My friend Eddi, Godspeed ) Why to stem for new "traditions" ???
Who knows what the tradition will look like a century ahead ...
Best regards...
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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I got the bronze fingerboard on... so far it works great for the nylons... it seems to work well with the wound strings, but I'm not yet 100%
sure --- the instrument is only half a day old now, so it will take a little time to settle. . . but so far I am very encouraged.
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Mood: Oudbsessed
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Well, my most heartfelt congrats Edward, I am really looking forward to see how your new "baby" is going to sound like.....may I ask if you if you
could post some sound samples in the near future for our aural pleasure?
Thanks, nice one mate!
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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| Quote: Originally posted by Giorgioud | Well, my most heartfelt congrats Edward, I am really looking forward to see how your new "baby" is going to sound like.....may I ask if you if you
could post some sound samples in the near future for our aural pleasure?
Thanks, nice one mate! |
Thanks G.O.!
Here is a pic...
i will be making a short vid very soon..... will post!
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Wow, man, gorgeous! How do you tune the esachord (may I venture at a wild guess that you tune it like a guitar?) and the five-course (Syrian tuning
perhaps?)?
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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What is the 5 course Syrian oud tuning?
My oud neck is tuned (from low to high):
FF - CC - GG - cc - ff
The Sarod neck is almost the same:
cC - C - G - c - f
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Mood: Oudbsessed
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Syrian/Egyptian tuning is cc, gg, DD, AA (or BbBb), F (or E or G or D. The differently tuned bamm string is used regionally, for example the E in
Lebanon, the D in Algeria, the F in Egypt, the G in some of the Greek tradition which, although being Ottoman-influenced, uses an Arabic tuning
sometimes.....). It seems I was wrong! You've got the oud neck tuned in Iraqi tuning but without the 4th course (which would be DD). The Iraqi tuning
complete would be ff, cc, gg, DD, CC, F
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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yeah for some reason it feels very iraqi to me!
cool info about the syrian tuning! the first oud i ever heard was in this tuning and turned me on incredibly to oud! OMAR NAQICHBENDI... you can hear
those clips right on this forum.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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just and update: it is starting to sound very good all around - even with the wound strings with very low turk-type action.
however I can see now one major disadvantage of the metal fingerboard for an oud, and that is that when u want to seriously fine-tune the superlow
action, it is great to have a wood fingerboard because the wood can be sanded and finely tweeked - - - this is also possible with metal, but more
difficult.
personally I would not use a metal fingerboard on a regular oud - and I am only using it on the ragmakamtar for cosmetic reasons. . . it simply
looks very cool to have a double neck with two metal fingerboards :-)
It definitely does sound great, but it is more difficult to work with.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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a very quick and very rough test of Ragmakamtar #13 recently completed...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-aGeFa9I_g
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Fritz, another vote of admiration for your beautiful ouds!
I have a question. Doesn't it make sense that the vast majority of the sound comes from the bridge to the soundboard? I can't somehow imagine more
than a small fraction coming from the neck through the headblock when the bridge is so much better coupled to the soundboard. If that is so, the metal
on the neck would change the timbre but not the volume. No?
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Mood: Oudbsessed
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Omar Naqishbendi is my all-times favourite oud player, ever! I worship in The Church of Naqishbenndi. He was the bestest and he's never been
bettered......the fire, the passion, the risks he took in his impros.....man!!! He was IT!!! The BIZ!!!!
Ahhh man, that ragmakamtar sounds so gorgeous....... really really good,
have you patented it yet? Well You should!
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