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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
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Nylon 3rd course
I am thinking about experimenting with a nylon 3rd course and would like some help choosing the gauge for the strings.
I have been using Daniel Mari strings and would like to continue with them as the main set but, which gauge of nylon should I use for a third course
to fit with the set?
I decided to try this after talking with a well known luthier who felt the tension on the 3rd course of the Mari set was a little higher than the rest
of the set. Does anyone else have any ideas on this?
thanks in advance
Bodhi
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jdowning
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What is the string length and tuning of your oud open strings Bodhi (at A440 standard pitch)? Do you know the tension of your present third course
(wound?) strings?
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Bodhi
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I tune Standard Arabic:CGAdgc'
60cm scale length Barbat
The Mari set is low tension but not sure exactly how much as I can't find that information online.
here are the Mari Gauges:
1st: .025in / .625mm
2nd: .028in / .72mm
3rd (wound): .024in / .61mm
4th (wound): .029in / .74mm
5th (wound): .033in / .84mm
6th (wound): .041in / 1.03mm
here is a link to oudstrings.com with a comparison table (I don't really know what to make of it)
http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=cms/article&path=3&am...
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jdowning
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The comparison table is really not much help when it comes to comparing wound strings due to the variables involved in string construction.
The first and second Mari courses appear to be plain nylon as advertised. For the first course at c' string tension would be about 3.2 Kg and the
second course g about 2.4 Kg for a string length of 60 cm (calculated using a Pyramid lute string calculator). So this appears to be quite a light
string tension set if all the other courses are 2.4 Kg or less.
If a d third course plain nylon string is chosen with equal tension to the second course of 2.4 Kg, the string gauge would be about 0.95 mm - quite
thick and about the limit for plain nylon to sound well I suspect. Alternatively for a lower tension of about 2 Kg string diameter would be about 0.87
mm.
An alternative brighter sound might be achieved using PVF strings - PVF being more dense than nylon means that the string diameter is less for the
same tension. So a Pyramid PVF string equivalent would about 0.74 mm diameter or 0.8 mm for a higher tension of 2.7 Kg or 0.7 mm for a tension of 2
Kg.
All of this assumes that the Pyramid and Mari nylon and PVF string densities are about the same.
Hope that this is of some help but if anyone has other first hand data about this Mari string set and tensions involved and can offer other
suggestions please advise.
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ameer
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Another factor to consider is that certain Nylon strings e.g. the DAdario J series are altered such that they sound significantly better at
thicknesses around 0.04" or 1mm. I have yet to find a brand of PVF that doesn't sound honky to my ear as a third course.
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Bodhi
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Thats very detailed jdowning thank you. It seemed to me (just by eye) that the 3rd course would have to be around 1mm, I did find a VERY cheap set of
strings from Turkey called Manol (I think) and their 2nd course was about that thick (I think it was actually a doubled up guitar string set) and it
sounded very dull as a 2nd course but maybe as a third would do alright. I think I will avoid the PVF as it seems to open a whole new kettle of
fish.
Thank you ameer I will look at the D' Addario at 0.04" that is 1.02mm, do you use this? Do you use the D' Addario set with this additional 3rd course?
would the Single .039in/.99mm be in anyway a better option?
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ameer
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I use different ones depending on the oud and the tension levels I'm looking for. Here's what I would start with:
http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/daddario-pro-arte-j4503-3rd-stri...
After that adjust thickness or brand as you see fit.
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jdowning
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No question that trying various brands of nylon strings - as ameer suggests - is the way to go for arriving at that subjective 'best' sound from a
nylon third for a particular instrument.
I know nothing at all about the chemistry of 'nylon' but it would appear that it can be produced in an almost infinite variety of formulations
dependent upon the physical properties required. Linear density of an instrument string is an important factor in how a string performs.
Until recently, I assumed that an average density for plain nylon instrument strings was 1.08 grams/cc. The handy 'on line' string calculator
developed by Arto Wilka assumes an average density for nylon strings as 1.04 grams/cc. A few days ago I carried out some tension tests on a set of
Pyramid #650 oud strings in order to calibrate my string test rig - resulting in a calculated density for the plain nylon first and second courses of
1.06 grams/cc.
Mimmo Peruffo (Aquila strings) says that DuPont Tynex polyamid 6-12 is the nylon most used for plucked instrument strings. This grade of nylon has a
density of 1.06 gram/cc - so I would have to guess that this is the grade of nylon used by Pyramid for their plain nylon strings. Other manufacturers
may use another nylon formulation with higher density allowing smaller diameter brighter sounding strings for a given tension all alse being equal.
Mimmo's 'Nylgut' formulation results in a plastic string with a density close to that of natural gut (1.30 gram/cc) brighter sounding than 6-12 nylon
without some of the disadvantages of gut.
Use of a plectrum (risha or mizrab) should produce a brighter sound from thicker monofilament nylon (compared to lute strings plucked with fingertips)
allowing use of relatively larger diameter strings but I am not sure what the lower tonal limits are.
So let us know how you get on with your trials Bodhi.
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  | | The handy 'on line' string calculator developed by Arto Wilka assumes an average density for nylon strings as 1.04 grams/cc. |
Some explanation about this calculator & how how it aught to be used on ouds, will be more than welcome/needed.
I tried by myself & got very funny results, such as 4.4 mm, or 28.9 kgm !! 
Thank you
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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jdowning
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Goodness!
Could you post an example of the input to the Arto Wilka calculator that you used to arrive at those strange results Jamil? Hopefully the physics of
oud strings are not unique to the instrument.
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Alfaraby
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Oops ! Sorry ! I can't recall the mess I've made using the calculater.
Could you please show me what to do.
Thank you
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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jdowning
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I didn't use the Arto Wikla on line string calculator for the above (I used the handy Pyramid slide rule lute string calculator instead) so let's
compare the results as an example. Go to :
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc
You will need Java (free download) to view the calculator.
Input data: pitch standard a'440Hz, pitch third course d, string length 600 mm, material nylon, string tension 2.4 Kg or 2.0Kg.
In the 'Note' box - select d
In the Octave box - select c -b
set standard a' = 440 (default)
In string length box - input 600
In string material box select Nylon
In the Tension boxes input 2.4 and 2.0 - the calculated diameters then show as 0.964 mm and 0.88 mm respectively. Also if you reset the material box
to Carbon (i.e. PVF) for the same tensions the diameter results then show as 0.734 mm and 0.67 mm - all agreeing with the results from the Pyramid
slide rule.
Note that the A.W. calculator can only be used for plain string calculations of uniform material and construction - not strings of wound or roped
construction. Also it will only calculate tension for a given diameter or diameter for a given tension.
The input values need to be realistic and practical otherwise unrealistic results will be presented - so beware.
Calculators and slide rules are much more convenient than working from first principles with a pocket calculator. I prefer slide rules as they are
accurate enough and can provide useful information like the tonal range limits of the various string materials.
A much more comprehensive software string and fret calculator is the Beier string calculator that also includes wound string data from the leading
manufacturers Savarez, Pyramid, Kuerschner and Aquila. It is shareware with a free trial period or 30 tests before registration is required. I am
currently trying out this program
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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John, how is the Beier program working? What I did once was work backwards from published D'Addario wound string tensions and arrive at "effective"
densities for the wound strings. Here are the values I got on a typical oud set.
0.024" 4540 kg/m^3
0.029" 4890
0.033" 5765
0.040" 6225
Then I would plug those into Arto's calculator. For intermediate gauges, interpolate. Well, why not? As I recall D'Addario uses a thicker winding wire
than say a Daniel Mari wound string, so they have more metal/nylon fluff, and are heavier, hence more tension. They sound more metallic too. I would
be interested to know how that compares to what you see with that Beier calculator.
On the Nylon 3rd for The Ameer Sanction approach, these Ernie Ball Ernesto Palla guitar 3rds look interesting, they mike at 0.040 and allegedly the
black nylon is a little brighter. I have one, it's lovely, can't find the other I think I had, but I keep losing stuff more every day:
http://www.juststrings.com/ebl-1513.html
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jdowning
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So far I have only tried some brief preliminary testing of the Beier String and Fret Calculator but trials are currently on hold. It is shareware but
free to try for 30 attempts before registration is required. I have tried contacting Paul Beier to find out what the software costs but - so far -
have had no response. The program is also supposed to sound the pitches of strings open and stopped for various fret temperaments but I cannot get
that feature to work. The software can be downloaded free from here if you want to give it a try:
http://www.musico.it/lute_software/bsfc/index.html
The usual approach in design of wound strings is to work with equivalent diameters of the core material - nylon, silk, gut or whatever. I plan to post
more detail on the actual calculation procedure in the recent topic 'Oud Strings, Calculations and Tuning' (soon!) so will not deal with the question
in depth here.
Briefly the formula (which comes in various levels of refinement) calculates the diameter of a wound string as if only made from the core material
(i.e. the equivalent diameter). This equivalent diameter can then be used to estimate tension at a required pitch using the Arto Wilka on line
calculator for example (which has no restriction on diameter or tension unlike some of the commercial slide rule type string calculators). So, it is a
relatively straightforward matter to calculate the equivalent diameter of any wound string knowing the outside diameter, density and diameter of the
wrapping wire (round section) and the density of the core material (requires an accurate micrometer - but low cost these days - to measure the
diameters).
So, for example, recent examination of an old copper wire on silk filament wound oud string measuring 0.9 mm outside diameter (of unknown manufacture)
gave a calculated equivalent diameter of a plain silk string of 1.7 mm. For a string length of 61 cm at F pitch (875 Hz - 5th course, A440 standard
pitch) string tension is then about 3Kg. (Of course a plain, low twist, silk string of 1.7mm diameter would not work at all at that pitch and string
length - hence the wound string!)
Anyway, more on that later.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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We'd like to be able to mike a wound string and plug that into Arto's, and not have to estimate an equivalent thickness of the core material, unless
there's a relatively simple formula we can use. If I have a 0.037" silvered copper on nylon fluff wound string, how do I get that equivalent nylon
thickness? And is that somehow a better model than trying to use an effective density for the sandwich?
We could, with an accurate scale, weigh a carefully measured length of wound string and from the mike'd diameter and length, seen as a cylinder,
derive the volume, and from that an effective density. I wonder if 1) we'd get similar values to what I got by working backwards from published data,
and 2) if that would then work in Arto's over a reasonable range, i.e. would the values agree with published data?
The reverse-calculated "effective densities" I listed are (obviously) correct at the point at which they were derived. Is there any reason to believe
that as we raise and drop pitch or length the tensions we get from Arto's will (or won't) be roughly correct? In other words is Arto's model usable
with anything but a homogeneous material?
As I recall I checked the published tensions that were available at different scale-lengths and pitch for the D'Addario strings I was working with,
and it was in the ball park.
I rather think that if you can use Arto's model on an "effective thickness" of a solid cylinder of the core filament material, it would work the same
on an "effective density" model.
If that's the case, then a chart or nomograph with interpolated values can be used to get a rough effective density for other wound silvered copper on
nylon string diameters, assuming that commercial wound strings are made with a roughly similar ratio of silvered copper to inner fluff at different
diameters.
John, from your experience, leaving aside unusual materials, is there a huge difference in the construction of silvered copper on nylon filament
guitar/oud/lute wound strings, such that one maker's 0.039" wound string gives say twice the tension of another maker's 0.039", or are the differences
in tension of different oud sets largely, if not entirely, the result of different gauge strings being used in the sets? I rather suspect the latter,
but can't be sure. Maybe use a small correction factor for different makers' construction?
p.s. It sure would be lovely to have a device you could use, say at the midpoint of a mounted string, and that would, by pulling the string up a
specific distance, calculate and display a tension figure.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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OOps, I just looked at the D'Addario Black Nylon, and what they say is that it's mellower, not brighter, than clear nylon.
They have some blue tint "titanium" nylon strings that they say ARE brighter.
The tensions and gauges for rectified, plain, black and titanium nylon are the same.
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jdowning
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The problem with wound strings is that the manufacturing process used influences the final out come as well as the relative wire and core diameter -
all else being equal. The procedure for making a wound string is to rotate the core between two centres and allow the wire to be fed uniformly along
the core - like the coils of a spring (see how Mimmo Peruffo does it on his Aquila strings website). The wire must be fed under sufficient tension to
grip the core securely so is itself subject to compression forces tending to flatten the wire coils somewhat. So even if the same diameter wire is
used, the string properties may vary somewhat between manufacturers. Of course, if the wire to core diameter ratios also differ between manufacturers
(as they likely do) then measurement of the outside diameter of a wiound string will not mean a lot.
No doubt armed with all of the string design data of each manufacturer I suppose that it might be possible to put together some accurate equivalent
comparative string tabulation but I don't know if this work has been done to date.
Another approach would be to measure pitch and tension of a particular wound string on a simple test rig as I have been doing in order to check the
results of the 'equivalent diameter' calculations.
The problem with compound material strings is that the Mersenne-Taylor law used to calculate tensions etc. requires a string to be a uniform cylinder
and of homogeneous density - hence the equivalent diameter approach.
I will show how to measure and calculate equivalent diameters of close wound strings in some detail under the topic 'Oud Strings, Calculations and
Tuning'. It is quite a straight forward procedure and accurate enough to enable string tension at a particular pitch to be determined for any wound
string of known or unknown manufacture.
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jdowning
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As suggested by fernandraynaud, out of curiosity I have just had another look at the Beier string calculator and can confirm that it does indeed give
wound string equivalents for various makers. The lower tonal limits given are for plain lute strings plucked with soft fingertips rather than a risha
so the limits might be a bit lower for ouds perhaps.
Here is what the program gives as equivalents for a 60 cm third course pitched at d (147 Hz):
Plain Strings (maximum allowable diameter at lowest tonal limit)
Nylon - 0.896 mm at 2.16 Kg
Gut - 0.922 mm at 2.86 Kg
Nylgut - 0.94 mm at 2.86 Kg
PVF - 0.804 at 2.86 Kg
Wound Strings
Savarez NP NF 90 at 2.91 Kg
Pyramid 1008 at 2.88 Kg
Kuerschner VN 5094 at 2.97 Kg
Aquila D 094 at 2.97
Alternative strings may also be selected by varying string tension for a given pitch.
(No other string makers are currently listed in this program).
Neat!! I have still yet to hear from Paul Beier concerning the cost of registering the software and resolution of the lack of sound problem.
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fernandraynaud
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John, can you please post the "gauge" or diameter of these wound strings from different makers?
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jdowning
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I don't have any information on the outside diameters of wound strings - except for those few types of Pyramid lute wound strings that I have in
stock. Perhaps that information is already tabulated somewhere?
I shall measure those strings and post the information. Perhaps others would do the same for Pyramid and other makers in order to build up a data
base?
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Brian Prunka
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This is an interesting topic, the choice of plain dd course certainly shows a lot of room for experimentation. I will look into the various offerings
and see if I can't provide more options for this choice.
I got a chance to play Ameer's oud this week (he is a great player by the way, full of tarab and plays beautiful taqasim! Simon and Najib Shaheen were
both very impressed). I thought that it sounded good, but the tension on the nylon dd still seemed too light.
I'll also talk to Aquila, with its high density, maybe nylgut could provide a smooth transition from nylon to wound. I have used it for the gg course
and liked the way it was not as drastic a change from nylon to wound.
The Pyramid lute strings are also a bit darker sounding than most wound strings; this makes the wound dd course not an abrupt transition.
Regarding the Mari (and most sets): the gg course is often quite a bit lower in tension than the rest of the set. I do not know why, but it seems to
sound better that way. The rest of the Mari set has tensions that are average around 3-3.4Kg tension (I don't have precise tensions for these, but I
have compared them to sets with known tensions and feel this is a good estimate).
I don't care much for Mari's nylon strings, I feel that D'addario, Pyramid, and Savarez all make for a smoother transition between the plain and wound
courses.
Another option is nylon wound nylon for the gg or dd courses, if anyone knows a good maker for that I will see if I can get some options available.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
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I am supprised that we made it back to the topic ;-)
Thanks Brian, your input is greatly valued. I will still be considering the options for awhile yet so I look forward to hearing what you discover. I
am also very intrested in the idea of nylon wound nylon!!! I didnt have any idea that sort of thing existed.
It is getting much bigger than I expected this nylon dd course!!!
Thanks again
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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A propos nylon wound on nylon, I fell in love with a very unusual set for Classical Guitar. Thomastik KR-116:
http://www.thomastik-infeld.com/guitars/index.html
http://www.juststrings.com/toi-kr116.html
The trebles are nylon flat-wound on nylon core, the basses are flatwound silvered copper on nylon(?) rope. They are light tension yet loud and
absolutely incredible-sounding on Spanish Guitars. Take a good look at that set, it's truly an innovation. For one thing they stay in tune from the
moment you install them. I was very tempted to get two sets to try on an oud, but the price for a double set is a bit steep, especially for somebody
who buys Daniel Mari sets, tosses the nylons and replaces them with PVF fishing leader! But for a single course it's manageable, they have the
flatwound nylon on nylon TN_KOI16, 24 and 25 (0.016", 0.024" and 0.025") here:
http://www.juststrings.com/classicalthomastik-infeldguitarsinglestr...
Somebody's going to have to run the numbers. But I have a feeling these could solve some peoples' oud string issues.
p.s. I've been a devoted user of Thomastik strings for a long time, in spite of the price. For me to spend over $100 for a six string bass set,
there's got to be a serious reason. For steel-string "acoustic guitar" players, they make amazing strings too:
http://www.juststrings.com/toi-ac110.html
and the related heavier sets.
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Microber
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Wow Fernand, FLATWOUND !
It sounds very attractive.
Once, I 'touched' flatwound strings on the fretless bass of a friend.
Amazing and very different.
Robert
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Thanks Fernand, I will look into it.
I only use Thomastik on my electric guitars, but haven't tried them on my classical guitar (I usually get LaBella for free so I have to make an effort
to buy new strings). I'll make it a point to try these.
I'll have to see about carrying some options from them. I never cared for their oud sets, but someone told me they improved them.
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