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Author: Subject: Nylon 3rd course
Microber
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[*] posted on 12-11-2012 at 04:40 AM


Hi Bodhi and Fernand,

Finally, what is the correct tension for the KR116 on a 60cm string length ?

Here is a table with the tensions you gave

KR116--|----Bohdi---|-----Fernandraynaud
| |
cc-------|----4.1------|-----3.97
gg-------|---3.66-----|-----3.52
dd-------|---3.55-----|-----3.03
AA------|---3.61------|----3.09
FF-------|---3.66------|----3.58
C--------|----3.66-----|-----3.55

I would like to give a try on my 60cm floating bridge, but I hesitate besause I'am afraid the tension will be too low.
Any opinion?

Thank you.

Robert
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[*] posted on 12-11-2012 at 05:11 AM


Hi Robert,

The tensions I gave feel more correct to me. I was really not happy with the bottom strings, they really felt too tense on my Oud (not floating bridge) never mind the ZZZZZING, the middle courses felt tighter than the 3kg tensions given by Fernand, so I did a few calculations and used Arto's website (using relative densities and string gauge) came up with the above calc.'s. I cannot say 100% I am right but I didn't simply guess, I would say my calc.'s are more correct because of a few aspects.

firstly by feel and second by the maths. keep in mind I am not very mathematical so Fernand could have been right to start with, I don't know what his method to find the tensions was.

All that aside, what is an average tension on a floating bridge Oud at 60cm? If mine are correct then they have the same tensions as the Pyramid Orange etc.

Could you not tune up if that is too low tension? Just for the experience? I would recommend putting Nylons or PVF on the bottom 2 courses and eliminate the zzzzing (however, you may like it).

did this help or confuse, because I confused myself.

P.S. In the next couple of days I will post a sound clip (finally got hold of a mic.) of the thomastik KR116's with D'addario R.Nylons on the Bottom 2 so you can get an idea of how they sound. I quite like it.
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[*] posted on 12-11-2012 at 05:47 AM


Thank you Bohdi !
The tension I have now is between 4.3 and 4.7kg, that I find a little too stiff. I'm just afraid to have too low tension.
Anyway, I'll order two set of KR116 and try it.
If I'm not satisfied, I sill have the possibility to reuse it on my daughter's guitar. So nothing is lost.:rolleyes:
Fernand, any opinion?

Robert
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[*] posted on 12-11-2012 at 06:11 AM


nothing ventured, nothing gained.

hope you enjoy them.
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thumbup.gif posted on 12-11-2012 at 07:50 AM


;)
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[*] posted on 12-13-2012 at 03:03 AM


Here is the sound file:

https://soundcloud.com/prem-bodhi/nahoft-navaa
Starts on the high strings in gushe Nahoft on D'addario Rectified Nylons, ends in Navaa Forud on the thomastik dd and the ff at the end, with
that lovely phasing which they have shown quite well.

hope you enjoy and it gives a reasonable idea of how these two types of string sound together.
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[*] posted on 2-13-2013 at 01:39 PM


I installed (is that a good word to use?) on my dd course a pair of D'addario rectified nylons, replacing the thomastik nylon wound on steel, and I have to say i am happier than ever with the sound. I am very pleased with the D'addario rectified nylons on the first 2 courses, they are really solid and have a good clear and long sustain, with a good mix of brightness and warmth. the same applies for the new 3rd course.

Like I say I am the happiest I have ever been with the sound of my Oud. The mix of warmth and brightness is just at the optimum balance.

I think I have come to the end of the 3rd course Journey. I think I can just play around with gauges now and see what suits my fingers best. (untill I buy a floating bridge:D)

Thanks to everyone who helped me out, for me it has been well worth it to get the sound I have now! I just hope more people will try it and then maybe sets with nylon 3rds will become more readily available.

Thanks again (especially to Fernand)
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Brian Prunka
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[*] posted on 2-13-2013 at 02:41 PM


Hey Bodhi, I am glad you found a sound you like. I agree that D'addario's rectified nylons are quite good. What gauge did you end up using for dd?




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[*] posted on 2-14-2013 at 02:56 AM


I went with 0.038in thats about 0.97mm I think. Can't remember what tension it gives, but it feels comfortable, I would say on the light side.

I didn't like the Thomastiks for the top courses they just don't suit me or my Oud, the bottom courses are fantastic, they have a sustain like no other string and match up quite well with the rectified nylons. They both have a good blend of warmth and brightness.

Thanks Brian for your input.
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[*] posted on 2-16-2013 at 12:17 PM


Hi Brian and Bodhi :)

I'd like to try the rectified nylon for the top three courses of my Tasos oud. What guage would you suggest (I have Kurschner lights on right now and used the Necati Celiks previously which were very nice). Tuning - C#F#BEAD Scale length - 585 mm.

Hope this doesn't open such a huge can of worms - lovely thread btw and lovely playing from Bodhi.

Leon
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[*] posted on 2-16-2013 at 12:43 PM


Usually .022 and .028 give good results for Turkish scale/tuning. You could go down to .027 for the aa course. For ee, I am honestly not sure . . . it is always a tradeoff between tension and tone when using thicker nylon.
I would be inclined to use the same .038 that Bodhi is using. D'addario doesn't make anything between .034 and .038, and .034 will be way too light, at about 2.2 KG.
.038 would be 2.8 Kg, a pretty reasonable tension. You could push it up to .039 pretty safely, at 2.9 Kg.

For reference, .022 give 2.9 Kg for the d' string, and .028 gives about 2.7 Kg for the a string.

For Arabic tuning, I would think that .039 or .040 would work a bit better, depending on the scale length. On a 610mm Arabic oud, .039 would be about 2.5Kg tuned to d, .040 yields just over 2.6Kg. .038 is just under 2.4Kg, which seems a bit on the low side to me.
.041 would yield almost 2.8Kg.




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[*] posted on 2-16-2013 at 12:54 PM


Thanks Brian

I'll have a think :rolleyes: and put in an order.

Cheers

Leon
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[*] posted on 5-27-2013 at 12:04 AM


My try with the Thomastik KR116 here.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11094

Robert
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[*] posted on 7-29-2013 at 05:35 AM


For arabic tuning, did anyone try to use PVF for the "d string" ? What about the gauge you use ?

In the case of the 2rd course, the rectified nylon gives good results when the string is relatively thin . In my case with a 61,5cm oud, the 0,85mm doesn't sound, and the 0,76mm sounds perfect.

In the case of the "d string", if we try to use PVF, is it a good idea to follow the same logic ? To look for a thin string ?

Best.

Julien.
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[*] posted on 8-25-2013 at 02:39 PM


Quote: Originally posted by juju  
For arabic tuning, did anyone try to use PVF for the "d string" ? What about the gauge you use ?

In the case of the 2rd course, the rectified nylon gives good results when the string is relatively thin . In my case with a 61,5cm oud, the 0,85mm doesn't sound, and the 0,76mm sounds perfect.

In the case of the "d string", if we try to use PVF, is it a good idea to follow the same logic ? To look for a thin string ?

Best.

Julien.



jdowning says
"An alternative brighter sound might be achieved using PVF strings - PVF being more dense than nylon means that the string diameter is less for the same tension. So a Pyramid PVF string equivalent would about 0.74 mm diameter or 0.8 mm for a higher tension of 2.7 Kg or 0.7 mm for a tension of 2 Kg."

Ameer says
"Another factor to consider is that certain Nylon strings e.g. the DAdario J series are altered such that they sound significantly better at thicknesses around 0.04" or 1mm. I have yet to find a brand of PVF that doesn't sound honky to my ear as a third course."

these comments however were based on the scale length 600mm.

I just wanted to bring this thread back to life as I have just ordered the Pyramid Yellow Label set with black nylon dd course! I will get them on, let them settle and hopefully whack out a short taqsim or something with them for you all to judge the sound (of the strings not my playing!).
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[*] posted on 8-25-2013 at 02:48 PM


Leon, did you get your 3rd course changed over to nylons or...? Let us know and give us a sample taqsim :D
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[*] posted on 9-13-2013 at 01:06 PM


I have had the Pyramid Yellows on for about 1 week and i have to say i have a mixed reaction to them. I have never enjoyed using Pyramid strings (granted I have only bought them a couple of times but still...) however, the copper bass strings sound great on my Oud... the black nylons however are a little dead sounding. My Oud
has a very active bass register and I think the warmer sound of the black nylons is being lost due to this and the lack of treble is not allowing them to shine to their full potential, the 3rd course nylons are too thick and the tension too low, the sound is not good at all perhaps on someone else's Oud they could work but on mine the cumulative effect is not the best it could be. Like I said the copper wound bass strings sound fantastic so I am very keen to have them again... but I nee to get rid of the top courses. I will make a recording in the next week.

My next step, I think, will be to get some D'addario rectified nylons and see how they sound with the Oud and against the copper wound bass strings. I am also going to invest towards November time in a set of the savarez copper wound with PVF trebles including a PVF 3rd course, that way i am guaranteed the warm, silky sound in the basses and the extra brightness for the trebles! I can imagine this would work but I am no expert in PVF as I have never used it. Lets see how this goes :)
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[*] posted on 12-21-2014 at 12:36 PM
Thomastik Classic N series (CF127)


Hi guys, sorry to resurrect this thread, but as you've been talking deeply here about the Thomastiks KR116, I would like to ask you: have you instead tried the Classic N series (CF127)? They come with flatwound chrome steel basses and the normal plain nylon that we're used to for trebles (and we can have a nylon 3rd course). Maybe it's a good option for getting flatwound basses?
Thanks for any information about them.
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[*] posted on 12-22-2014 at 06:18 AM


I'm a big fan of the KR116 set for guitar. It's specified as a Spanish guitar set, though I use them on my steel string Martin D18. I thought they would work for the bass strings of the oud. The tensions as i recall looked ok. Spanish guitar wound strings from a "light" set are about the right gauges and tensions for Arabic oud. The scale and pitch are different of course, but if you crunch the jumbers you will find that the 4th course of a light classical guitar set will be about right for the 4th course of an Arabic oud. It makes for a usable desperation strategy if you only have access to guitar strings. But of course it's a rough guide and specifics still need to be worked out case by case. The N series I thought was roundwound but anything could be tried.

I don't remember who, but someone here tried the KR116 bass strings. As i recall he reported that the scraping sound of the risha on the windings was unacceptable. Let's see, sorry I'm too sleepy now.

BTW My method of approximating silvered copper wound string tensions was to start from tensions supplied by d'Addario at specific scale, gauge and pitch. Then using Arto's to calculate an effective mass for a given gauge silvred copper wound string. Then interpolating for the sightly different gauges we have no d'Addario data on, giving us what looked like plausible effective masses, and finally using the "effective mass" as the Mass in Arto's to get tension at any specific oud scale and pitch.

Feeding the results back in different conditions confirmed it was a usable approximation. D'Addario is now releasing a new Web applet tension calculator that was "two years in development". What I did check using that applet suggested that my old "effective mass" method was pretty close.

I didn't have a milligram scale back then to actually weigh small lengths of wound string but now that I do we could also try that approach if necessary.
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[*] posted on 12-22-2014 at 12:59 PM


I'm interested in measuring methods, still have to sit and read more deeply and maybe make some calculations myself.

With regards to the Thomastik Classic N strings, I forgot to mention that they come in two flavors: roundwound (CR127) and flatwound (CF127) basses (with plain nylon trebles always). I was suggesting this one as I think I've read that that the scrapping sound was on the nylon wound trebles of the KR116 that didn't sounded ok on the oud. That's because I'm considering keeping those nylons if I like them. Otherwise, would need to mix with another set of trebles.
More info on the Thomastik Acoustic Guitar catalog.
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[*] posted on 12-22-2014 at 01:07 PM


I've made rough calculations basically dividing tensions in the CF127 set by 1.8 (so they're for a 60cm scale oud, tuned to arabic standard).

cc 3,83 kg
gg 3,05 kg
dd 3,11 kg (plain nylon)
AA 3,61 kg (wound)
FF 3,55 kg
CC 3,55 kg

That throws an average of 3,45 kg, which I think is around what is accepted as "normal" for the oud?

Thanks for following up on this.
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[*] posted on 12-23-2014 at 11:33 AM


I just put strings from CF128 for the dd course (wound, not nylon in CF128). I don't like it so far, way tooo dark, even though I like darker sound. It's like the string is muted somehow. I will try some of the others, specifically gg and AA, and see.
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