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Edward Powell
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gg nylon course: what makes it ring?
Hi Oud Wizards out there...
...I guess we can all admit that the weak point of an oud is the "gg nylon" course. What I mean is that the most commonly problematic course is the
"gg" course ("neva" course in Turkish).
I think the reason for this is that standard guages produce a string which has significantly less tension than the other courses... and if we would
go for a thicker string, then once we reach a higher tension the thickness would be too thick to be thin enough to produce a nice tone.
In my experience the ouds which have had a really nice "gg" sound had very light bracing and very thin soundboard - so the gg came out nice but the
overall tone of the oud lacked volume and punch (which comes with heavier soundboard). This is not to say that I have not heard ouds that sounded
great all the way around.
I'd like to ask for other's opinions and experience with the gg course and see if we can figure out how to solve this problem....
thanks!
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spyblaster
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my solution is a bit easier: just throw the damn nylon pair in the garbage and use a metal pair. lute string etc. that's what Naseer does.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Jody Stecher
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Try Aquila nylgut for neva/gg. It delivers a sound with more body yet is not too tight or thick. This is from their lighter set.
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farukturunz
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Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  | Hi Oud Wizards out there...
...I guess we can all admit that the weak point of an oud is the "gg nylon" course. What I mean is that the most commonly problematic course is the
"gg" course ("neva" course in Turkish).
I think the reason for this is that standard guages produce a string which has significantly less tension than the other courses... and if we would
go for a thicker string, then once we reach a higher tension the thickness would be too thick to be thin enough to produce a nice tone.
In my experience the ouds which have had a really nice "gg" sound had very light bracing and very thin soundboard - so the gg came out nice but the
overall tone of the oud lacked volume and punch (which comes with heavier soundboard). This is not to say that I have not heard ouds that sounded
great all the way around.
I'd like to ask for other's opinions and experience with the gg course and see if we can figure out how to solve this problem....
thanks!
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Hi Eddi,
In my opinion there is no any ready recipe to improve this problematic course.
It just stands in the critical band of the resonance distribution of the oud's soundboard. The fundamental frequency of gg string is 196.00Hz
(G3) I will discuss this "critical band" later if you or someone else are interested in a discussion  )
Yes, "light bracing" with a very thin soundboard help gg to come out "nice". Lacking volume and punch indicate that there is very little resonant
areas for the overtones of gg 196.00...
To overcome imbalance problems my tip is to arrange a resonant area for the nylone strings at just around the bridge location but at the same time
arrange resonant areas for the overtones (third: 588.00 -this is very close to D5-587.33 / fourth: 784.00 G5 and fifth overtone 980.00 very little
less than B5:987.77)
Of course, for haphazard constructions there is very little chance for certain frequencies to be located on the soundboard. Only by making thousands
experiments one can come accross with an outcome like that. Or...NEVER!!!
I suggest you use "Brace Tuning and Calculation Method".
A SIMPLE CALCULATION METHOD:
You must know the eigenfrequencies of the points (on an unbraced S.B.) which take place at just the centre of the bracing line, by
tapping them. Name these eigenfrequencies as "natural frequencies of the brace line centers" and symbolize them as "Fn"s
Then you will find out the modified frequency "Fm"of a central point by multiplying Fn by f (specific frequency of a brace) and then
taking the square root of that multiplication. Note down the Fm's!
Then, you need to find out the overal Regional Resonance Frequencies "RRF" applying a similar calculation to the contiguous braces'
Fm's. For instence to find out the RRF around the bridge multiply Fm(1) by Fm(2) and then take square root of the multiplication.
The base of my Brace Tuning and Calculation Method is so simple.
You must create some algorithms by starting from the targetted RRF's.
This is worth to concentrate on and try.
With my best regards...
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oudistcamp
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Faruk,
Please define "Modified Frequency".
Please define " Regional Resonance Frequency"
" You must create some algorithms by starting from the targetted RRF's."
Do you mean to use the known fundamental frequency of gg (196.00) and its overtones as the targetted RRFs and work backwards on the algorithm?
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster | | my solution is a bit easier: just throw the damn nylon pair in the garbage and use a metal pair. lute string etc. that's what Naseer does.
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lute strings are gut? no?
What do you mean metal pair...? you mean like a steel string? like 0.012 guage? ...problem with that is that that would need to be played with
finger nails -- but I guess naseer does this...
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz |
The base of my Brace Tuning and Calculation Method is so simple.
You must create some algorithms by starting from the targetted RRF's.
This is worth to concentrate on and try.
With my best regards... |
Well, it reminds me of all those wonderful evenings and days we spent together in your workshop - trying to make ragmakamtar #3 which was like a
guitar - and therefore we could not take advantage of your brace tuning method...... but now my ragmakamtars are so similar to ouds, that
logically it seems that your method should work perfectly on these instruments?
So yes I think now it is time to test out your method on my next ragmakamtar. . . . I wonder if we could do this over the internet or it would be
necessary for me to come down to Istanbul (I have been meaning to visit again for a long time).
I think this could also be an ultimate test of your method also (which is obviously working with your ouds) - which so far has not been tested by
another luthier, correct?
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by oudistcamp | Faruk,
Please define "Modified Frequency".
Please define " Regional Resonance Frequency"
" You must create some algorithms by starting from the targetted RRF's."
Do you mean to use the known fundamental frequency of gg (196.00) and its overtones as the targetted RRFs and work backwards on the algorithm?
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oudistcamp,
Modified Frequency refers to the resultant frequency (brace frequency is added on the eigenfrequency on the soundboard)
Modified frequencies do not correspond the vibration where they occur. The braces and the part of the soundboard adhered to them are the least
vibrating "elements" on the S.B. Their function is to determine the vibrating frequency interval between two braces (Regional Resonance Frequency).
This method necessitates to accept the possibility that wood can be treated as a commensurable material since only the frequency is respected, not the
metric or dimensional features!!!
This frequency attachment of mine (let's say "Frequencysophia" ) is the essence of a new paradigm in the art of luthiery proposed with/ by
my "Brace Tuning and Calculation Method".
Yes, I mean exactly what you guess: ...to use the known fundamental frequency of gg (196.00) and its overtones as the targetted RRFs and work
backwards on the algorithm! That's it...
Kind regards...
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
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[rquote
So yes I think now it is time to test out your method on my next ragmakamtar. . . . I wonder if we could do this over the internet or it would be
necessary for me to come down to Istanbul (I have been meaning to visit again for a long time).
I think this could also be an ultimate test of your method also (which is obviously working with your ouds) - which so far has not been tested by
another luthier, correct?
[/ rquote]
Yes Eddi, I always remember those times with blessing: During our talks I've gained a good vocabulary thanks to your adequacy in English as a native
speaker; also I had the chance to think over on it. As a result I could revise and refine the "Brace tuning and Calculation
Method".
So, you may think that the older ouds before this revision and refinement had not been so good...No, they were liked by the oudoists and also I liked
them; but they were not exactly like what I had assumed. Tuning Method was working in a different mechanism other than the way I had been considering
up to time I fully understood it. It was working but in different intervals: For instance I was hoping to allocate a certain Frequency to a
particular area, but either the fourth or the fifth of that frequency was settled there. This allocation choice is critically important to be able to
assess the high range fundamental string frequencies around the bridge area and the overtones of the bass strings to the onward parts of the S.B. (
closer to the neck) Thus you feel the wound strings sappier due to their overtones are resonating enough. See my post to this thread:Wrong
design of soundboard may cause loose string http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2945#pid192...
As for your proposal... OK. Why not? You can send me the layout of your new Ragmakamtar's S.B. Together with the eigenfrequencies you "hear" by
tapping the central points of the brace locations on the S.B.
I need to know the frequencies of the strings on it as well...
I may propose you some RRF's and we can discuss. Let's go Eddi in that way!
Anyhow some luthiers may attempt to try my method. This is what I dream.
By these detailed explanations I've finally disposed of an enigmatic shroud of the formidable couple of words: "Brace Tuning"
Every day I take the result of a new "ultimate test". This method is a fountain of enthusiasm inspires you for a "new sound quest"
relentlessly...Recently (within two months) I've tested 8 different RRF compositions. The outcomes are enough to be sure for the sufficiency of my
method.
The number of possible RRF compositions is endless)
Otherwise how all ouds could be speaking in their personal but unrefined language ??? Whereas no Brace Tuning or any particular method
grounding on some commensurable elements is said to be applied...
My method is not for making the oud produce "better" sound, but produce the "sound" that your imagination could ever create and you have ever heard... like the sound of an oud made by an old master luthier.
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oudistcamp
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Frequencysophia......
 
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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i meant wound strings, sorry for that. Naseer uses wound strings but i don't know which instrument they are made for. however, my teacher uses wound
strings and he says its for lute(he is a friend of Naseer and uses some of his advices)
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster | | i meant wound strings, sorry for that. Naseer uses wound strings but i don't know which instrument they are made for. however, my teacher uses wound
strings and he says its for lute(he is a friend of Naseer and uses some of his advices) |
OK, so normally oud used for the "dd" (dugah) course, a wound 0.024w or 0.023w string.
Yes it makes sense to me to use a similar wound string also for the "gg" course, but that would have to be 0.018w or 0.019w..... I don't think these
are available????
The thinnest I have ever seen or tried is 0.022w and they broke very easily.
I would appreciate more detailed and clear info regarding what possible workable wound string alternatives there can be for the nylon "gg" course -
THANKS!
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Edward Powell
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Hi Faruk
Great!!! ...I think at the moment I have gone about as far as I can go on my own efforts - I have narrowed the thing down dramatically, but now it
needs to be taken to the next level and I strongly suspect that your Brace Tuning Method is the missing link. Currently I am tuning the AIR with
wonderful results in the bass register, but as for at the soundboard frequencies I am currently simply operating on intuition and guess work and the
results are unfortunately "hit and miss".
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
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OK Eddi,
We can start a joint-survey on your next Ragmakamtar.
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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i just asked him. he uses pyramid lute strings which and he confirmed that those strings are expensive and have a short life. he didn't know the
thickness(going to measure soon). but i have a pyramid 655/11 set on of my ouds. it has 0.022 for dd and i have used it for more than one year and
it's still in one piece. and we usually use 0.029 for AA. so how about 0.029 for AA, 0.025 for dd and 0.022 for gg? i think it will be stable and
sound good.
p.s. all my measurements are in inches, how about yours?(i don't know what 0.022w means )
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Edward Powell
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usually string measurements are in inches... but PVF seems to be more commonly in mm...
then there are indian string coils which go by numbers #000 #00 #0 #1 #2.... #28 #29 etc etc
well it is worth a try to experiment with a wound gg... I still would guess that 0.022 would be too thick and tight... probably a 0.019 would be
better (?) have to get some custom strings made?
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fernandraynaud
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Edward, for what it's worth, what I've been using on the top (cc and gg) courses on my 600mm scale ouds, with good tension, timbre and volume on th gg
course is dual layer PVF ("carbon"). Have you experimented with such PVF? For those who haven't, here are the details.
It's heavier than Nylon or Nylgut, about 1800kg/m^3 as opposed to nylon's 1050kg/m^3, and has a brighter timbre that blends imperceptibly with a wound
3rd course. The character of PVF filament with two cencentric layers is that the outer layer is softer and so the timbre is not as bright as if the
harder inner material were extruded as a monofilament. I love the way the gg course sounds like the DD. On an ebony (or coated) fingerboad, with
strong fingering, it's almost indistinguishable.
I use Seaguar fishing Leader that was discovered by classical guitarists. It's as evenly extruded as any musical string, stable and very durable. At
the local boutique angler shop they asked which instrument I play. The Premier and the Blue Label are similar. The Red Label is a (cheaper)
monofilament, but I have not tried it yet. For the cc course a Blue label 0.020" (0.520mm) works well, giving about 3.7kg tension on 600mm, and for
the gg course I like the 0.024" (0.62mm) Premier yielding around 3.1kg.
A 0.026" (0.660mm "50lb") Blue Label could be used on the gg, it's a popular gauge, for about 3.5kg on a 600mm scale.
Seaguar's "lb" ratings are pounds, the strength of the line in a fishing application, and THEIR reason for the dual layer construction is so knots
don't slip. Good for us too. The Blue Label is always a hair thicker for an equivalent "lb" rating, so there must be some slight difference.
Between the Premier and the Blue you can find Seaguar Dual Layer leaders in 0.013", 0.015, 0.016, 0.018, 0.020, 0.022, 0.024, 0.026, 0.028, 0.029,
0.031 and 0.032 in the range of interest to us. You can use Arto's New String Calculator to compute the tensions, he has "Carbon" in the density
drop-down. Spools of 25 yds cost 10 to 25 US dollars depending on thickness, $0.45 to $1.13 a string, primo strings! I get a Daniel Mari set and toss
the nylons.
http://www.seaguar.com/products/leaders.htm
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Edward Powell
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Hi Ferny
I have not yet tried PVF on the gg... I now have PVF on the other 2 courses and they sound great!
I need to buy some... I tried a used .66mm PVF on the gg and it did not sound great... maybe cuz it was old already?
I am going to order some PVF asap and will let you know how it works.....
where is the best and cheapest place on-line to get PVF?
THANKS!
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fernandraynaud
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Yo, Eddie, what it IS!
If you look up my e-mail and send me a usable postal address, I'll drop a coupla yards of 0.62mm (0.024") Seaguar Premier Leader in an envelope fer
ya. If you need more length than 36" length per string, let me know. I don't have any thicker PVF. But I have 0.015", 0.018 and 0.020" Seaguar if you
want to try 'em. If the 0.024" is a little too light for your gg course, the ever-popular 0.026" (0.66mm) "50 lb" Blue Label could be good. At least
you'll have an idea.
I think the DD course tends to be the tightest course on an oud, so for consistency on the gg maybe even a 0.028"? I expected 0.018" at 3.1kg to be
best for the cc course, but the 0.020" turned out faaaabulous in spite of the seemingly high 3.7kg tension.
Normally you'd pick the PVF you want from Seaguar's site, then cast for the fishing equipment vendor with the best price. I don't think any musical
string repackager has as wide a range of PVF as Seaguar, their quality is super, the price is great. But I haven't seen smaller spools than 25 yards,
though there was some sort of a trial 10 yard package once.
You could try contacting the Seaguar office in the US or the plant in Japan to see if they'd send you some 2.5 meter samples of different
types/gauges. Tell 'em you're an influential instrument maker, and that your instruments use LOTS of strings! Know what I'm sayin'?
At the yuppie angler shop in Berkeley they were showing me several other fancy brands of PVF leader that they said were also popular with flamenco
guitarists, classical guitarists, lutenists, gambists, ... and even fishermen.
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Luttgutt
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Hi Tony and Eddi!
Long time now :-)
Eddi, I usually use Aquila Nylgyt on my gg. And it works fine on "almost" all my ouds.
But lately, Fernand sent me PVF gg  I tried it on one oud, and I can
assure you it is even much better then what he is implying! :-)
It sounds really greate!
p.s. he also sent me cc and ff. I like them. The cc is good. The ff is OK. But the gg is a class in itself!!!!
My only problem is that I don't really understand what to buy (to get the SAME strings he sent me) 
Tony, maybe you should start selling them here!? I will be your first customer!!
P.s. Thanks again and again Tony! I used that oud on the New CD, and I am very happy with the sound! (p.s. I
used two different ouds on the CD, one fixed and one floating bridge. Both Sukar ouds).
Have a nice day
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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spyblaster
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im also interested. PVF is originally for fishing, ain't it? i don't know if i can find seaguar products here in Iran. is there any alternative? other
brands...?
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Thanks, Geko, I'm so happy that worked out for you. It would be interesting to try a greater variety of these PVF materials, but I suspect that a PVF
monofilament would be too metallic-sounding. The double layer material sounds a lot like a wound string that's been sweetened by being played a bit,
and it blends well with the DD wound course.
I too love that 0.024" on the gg. The 0.020" on the cc works for me, just a touch bright, 0.018" was sweeter but I liked the sheer power of the
0.020". Maybe I'll go back and try the 0.018" again. But this is all in a good ball-park as far as getting away from playing on nylon and then
suddenly hitting the wound DD course, with an unacceptable change in timbre. PVF solves that problem. I suspect a thin wound string in the gg position
would be too fragile, and why bother if PVF works?
Of course, dearly beloved, we do have the other direction, the Ameer Sanction, which is to go nylon on all 3 top courses, where the dd course uses a
nylon guitar pair, like a 0.039". With a higher action the Ameer Sanction gives the percussive "Egyptian" sound. The AA course tends to be lower
tension, and it's below the most resonant peak, so I think it can blend better with an adjacent nylon course than DD, making this another viable
approach to the timbre discontinuity problem.
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Edward Powell
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GReat!
I just sent you an email!!!
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster | | im also interested. PVF is originally for fishing, ain't it? i don't know if i can find seaguar products here in Iran. is there any alternative? other
brands...? |
the trick is just to go to a fishing store and ask for FLOROCARBON fishing line... then get the right thickness and don't worry about brand... this
should be fine.
I recently did this and got a 0.35mm PVF for the top ff course and it is wonderful - - - some unknown brand of florocarbon leader.
The problem is getting the heavier guages from a fishing store.
Are there fish in Iran?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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I don't know, Edward, I think there's something to how the double layer stuff like Seaguar works. They extrude it with the inner core being hard PVF
that gives it strength and there's an outer softer layer that prevents knots from slipping. That gives it a specific sound. Plain PVF sounds more
metallic. Of course if you don't have a choice, any PVF is worth trying.
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