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LoveLightPeace
Oud Lover
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which wood's the best?
Between maple, walnut, and rosewood, which wood:
1-looks the best (for ouds)
2-creates the best sound (for ouds)
?
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Walnut is the most traditional. People get good results with all three, I wouldn't say one is "better" than another, they're all good woods.
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Edward Powell
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You left out the most important criteria... the Environment. Using which wood causes the least damage to the environment?
All 3 look and sound great (but different - however the differences are small when considering backs, necks and pegboxes.... greater differences are
felt between soundboards).
Using rosewood is generally by far the most harmful for the environment because it generally comes from far away places - also often where those trees
are endangered - and also where forestry practices are irresponsible (are forestry practices anywhere responsible??).
So don't use rosewood or buy ouds made of rosewood because this is supporting the destruction of rainforests, endangered species and finally it is
very wasteful to have to ship wood long distances....
USE AND SUPPORT THE USE OF LOCAL COMMON WOODS --- GO FOR SOUND, NOT "STATUS WOOD".
ps - I think beech is one of the best woods - sounds great, easy to work with, very strong, it is everywhere and cheap, and looks ok also.... it is
so common that is is regularly used for firewood!
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jdowning
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I support Edward's comments about using readily available (and lower cost) local woods.
Beech is a good traditional hardwood to use as is Elm and Walnut (15th C sources).
Rosewoods - like all woods - come in many varieties. Some of these are now plantation grown so are not an environmental threat. Others - like
Brazilian rosewood - are now protected and so restricted in availability. Consequently these species can now be very costly.
The other disadvantage of many of the tropical species is that the oils in the wood can be toxic (but not deadly!) on contact resulting in skin and
respiratory problems for those sensitive to the oils.
Also the oily woods can cause problems in creating secure glue joints - requiring a chemical degreasing operation prior to gluing.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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As usual these are complicated issues. No harm in subsidizing local woods, but I'm sure the people who rely on sale of specialty woods for a living,
and who may be dealing with responsible and renewable sources, may not agree with you. A blanket rejection of rosewood may not be appropriate, and I
doubt the custom instrument market would have much impact compared to furniture and flooring anyway.
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jdowning
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Brazilian rosewood - among some other forest grown tropical hardwoods - is already an Appendix 1 CITES endangered species - like ivory - where
International trade is banned between countries that have signed the CITES treaty. As far as I am aware that includes the USA.
It is not complicated issue at all and perfectly appropriate - as hopefully those who rely on the sale of specialty woods for a living well
understand.
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Edward Powell
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what does this mean? ...just curious
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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I wasn't talking about endangered Brazilian Rosewood, or, heaven forbid, Ivory. Responsible suppliers check their sources, buy from vendors who do the
same. They sell wood that is harvested in such a way as to ensure the viability of the plantation. Wood is intrinsically a renewable resource. We all
oppose destructive logging, and we like beautiful wood in our instruments. That's not incompatible.
I wonder if bureaucrats like those who raided Gibson Guitar Co aren't mostly interested in an opportunity to justify their salaries and budget. Gibson
had been buying ebony from a German company that purchased ebony in Madagascar. Suddenly a new government in Madagascar instituted new restrictions on
export of ebony. Gibson continued to purchase ebony from the same German source, which had a valid permit for export of ebony objects from Madagascar.
Because the ebony was wood blanks and not "objects", and a proper declaration wasn't filed on entry to the US as to the species of the wood, Gibson
was raided for being in possession of plants whose export was banned by a foreign government and which were not properly declared, and six (6) guitars
and some pieces of wood confiscated. There's a fine line between protecting endangered species and nonsense.
If you want to talk about insanity in destroying a non-renewable resource, look at burning petroleum distillates to power automobiles. Petroleum is a
100% non-renewable resource, and is the only source for the majority of the materials, organic chemicals and medicines we use. Without petroleum, our
hospitals, our technology, everything, comes to a standstill. Yet we burn it! And we waste it, in the unimaginable amounts of plastic we throw into
landfills. The abuse of petroleum is a tragedy that will cost us dearly in the long run, yet the only thing people worry about is its price.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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OK, let me be true to character and tell the other side of the story (as I read the affidavits filed by the US Govt). Gibson was buying the ebony from
a "serious" company in Hamburg, but the middleman was a Thuman guy who was selling wood out of Africa, even when it was illegal. When the more
restrictive ebony export ban was being enacted between 2000 and 2006, Gibson knew exactly what the situation was, including the fact Mr. Thuman didn't
have the very hard to get permit to export ebony, just a license to handle manufactured ebony trinkets (which brought more income to Madagascar).
There is apparently evidence in the form of e-mails showing Gibson just plain decided to take the risk. So 2300 cubic meters of ebony was shipped by
container to Hamburg in 2009 and then as a $76,000 order to New Jersey, with paperwork identifying it as Madagascar ebony, but missing just one
specific form. The US Customs service notified Fish and Wildlife who did a thorough investigation, decided they were buying black market ebony, and
Gibson was raided by armed local Federal Folks in Tennessee, with 6 guitars, some ebony and computers taken. Under the Lacey Act - confiscation with
no recourse.
But then last year they were raided AGAIN by armed agents, and whole pallets of Indian fingerboard blanks taken, this time just on the grounds that
formally only thinner finished fingerboards are supposed to be exported from India. But Gibson had been buying these in India for 17 years. This month
Gibson paid a $350,000 fine and a $50,000 gift to the Fish and Wildlife to close the matter.
Frankly it sounds like in the first case Gibson was probably wrong, but in the second case the Govt was abusive, probably because the first time they
didn't find enough evidence. It's getting crazy. Used instrument dealers are afraid to ship instruments across borders, because anyone could lose an
instrument if they cannot show the origin of the wood! Bureaucrats with power are the same everywhere. We start with good intentions, to protect the
forests, we give them some authority, and they brutalize us. American enforcers don't understand that regulations in most countries are constantly
changing, and not taken literally. The situation in Madagascar is so volatile, it probably wasn't unreasonable for Gibson to think that it was OK to
buy from the Germans.
http://www.eia-global.org/PDF/Report--Madagascar--Forest--Aug09--En...
Edward, you may be right. It looks like all rosewoods (Palisander, Cocobolo, etc etc) and ebony are so often harvested illegally they are on the way
to being banned in international trade. Sitka Spruce (for soundboards) is on the agenda by some groups. So.. will our whole instruments be made of
reprocessed pulp one day?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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We already have guitar bodies made of steel or "plastic" and I wouldn't be astonished to see an oud with a fiberglas body and a synthetic fingerboard
soon.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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But plastic is made from a non-renewable resource, to wit petroleum, that unlike wood can never grow back. Rosewood in plantations is generally
harvested in 10-20 years. I'm as horrified as you are about the damage we are doing to the forests. But I am somehow very uncomfortable with the tone
this eco-enforcement is taking.
You want to read something scary?
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf
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AGAPANTHOS
Oud Addict
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Location: CRETE-GREECE
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In my opinion there is no definite answer to this question because there are noumerous technical factors(the most of which have not quantitave but
qualitative nature) that contribute to the sound of a specific oud.
One decisif factor is the coupling of the top with the back of the instrument. This factor is partly quantitave and essentially qualitative.
In general the wood of the back has to have the following proprieties. Has to be dry,well structured, stable , dense, with medium range average
stiffness and in the same time with low damping proprieties.
According to my expirience as an instument/oud maker the maple family (acer is the botanical name) is the kind of wood which is blessed by the god,
but there are other families of trees that are blessed too, like the mahagonies, the rosewoods e.t.c. e.t.c.
Youcan't have arecire.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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After the Cites discussion here's a LINK of a german guitar luthier explaining the most common tonewoods.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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AGAPANTHOS
Oud Addict
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In my opinion there is no definite answer to this question because there are noumerous technical factors(the most of which have not quantitave but
qualitative nature) that contribute to the sound of a specific oud.
One decisif factor is the coupling of the top with the back of the instrument. This factor is partly quantitave and essentially qualitative.
In general the wood of the back has to have the following proprieties. Has to be dry,well structured, stable , dense, with medium range average
stiffness and in the same time with low damping proprieties.
According to my expirience as an instument/oud maker the maple family (acer is the botanical name) is the kind of wood which is blessed by the god,
but there are other families of trees that are blessed too, like the mahagonies, the rosewoods e.t.c. e.t.c.
You can't have a recipe.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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I would imagine that OAK must be excellent for fingerboards. In EU oak and beech are so common people burn these for firewood.
Faruk Turunz (and partner Svat Abi) turned me on to using Trespa (yes, cellulose pulp and resin) for fingerboards, and I've used it extensively always
with excellent results. Now in fact Faruk has used trespa for some fingerboards also. I don't believe in synthetic materials, [trespa comes in large
panels and is used as a construction material] but Faruk buys industry off-cuts which would otherwise be thrown in the trash. . . thereby not only
saving an ebony tree, but also reducing toxic waste in our landfills. Furthermore, those who can get past emotional attachments will notice that
trespa is actually better than ebony as a fingerboard material for ouds because it is more hard (not so hard as to make the timber sound metalic) -
this extra hardness means that your fingerboard will last at least 10X longer without having to be re-flattened. However, it is more work for the
luthier to process. For fingerboards and purflings personally I don't see any reason anymore for using ebony as long as we have access to industrial
waste off cuts of trespa that would otherwise be trash.
Fernie, as you seem to take offence to an eco-tone, I am somewhat sensitive to terms like "harvested legally". What does this mean "legally"?? Legal
according to who? I'd bet the tree didn't agree... and what about people who breathe all the oxygen that tree produces, and air pollution it eats?
Within REASON, I don't agree to cutting any trees! Paradoxical statement I know --- but what I mean is that wood is gold and trees stablize and
beautify this planet. . . ....of course we are going to cut trees and use wood, but let's do it with the utmost of consciousness and
consideration, and not just assume that if it is "legal" it is therefore OK. Afterall raping the Alberta tar sands is "legal".
Also, I don't completely agree that oil is not a renewable resourse, and wood is... it takes a hell of a long long time to grow back old growth
wood! In terms of our short lifetimes old growth wood is not a renewable resource - and there is a huge difference between old growth wood and these
tooth pick trees that are now "legally harvested"  ) Oil on the other
hand will "eventually" replenish itself in millions of years so it is therefore "renewable"...... or should I say, in terms of our life time
old growth wood is no more renewable than oil.
The main point is to stop using high quality woods for floors and furnature - instrument making is a drop in the bucket compared to that. My previous
statement that we should not buy ROSEWOOD ouds was more of a provocation to get y'all thinking about this topic --- in truth, I am happy to see
rosewood being used for fine quality hand-made instruments, in fact, that is what it should be used for --- either that, or leave the tree alone!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Agree with most of your points, I in turn wanted to raise some other issues. One ironic thing is that to extend life of wooden fingerboards we coat
them with plastic. Another irony is abusive enforcement activity. But I fully agree with your original intent.
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jack
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 4-5-2010
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Thought I'd dip my feet into this wonderful discussion with some info from the ukulele world. Due to the rising cost of high-grade koa (which is the
traditional uke wood) some manufacturers have been building ukes with alternative woods, with fabulous results. I have a Ko'olau tenor ukulele made of
'Ula wood, both body and soundboard, and it is profound. If I had unlimited resources I'd commission one of the luthiers on this forum to build me an
oud with 'Ula as the soundboard, and one of the other alternative woods for the bowl. That will have to wait, but in case any of you are interested,
here is a link to Ko'olau's wood selection, where some of the alternative woods are listed:
http://koolauukulele.com/woods/
I've attached a picture of my uke, although the image does not do the deep, rich red of the 'Ula wood justice. Unpolished, it is still truly a sight
to behold. And sound wise, it is as buttery as they come.
Jack
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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well as u can see, I am an "environmentalist", but "abusive enforcement activity" is something that I find pathetic. For example just yesterday I
bought a heat gun to fix my laptop and was forced to pay a 9% ENVIRONMENTAL FEE which is now in-force in Canada. I was shocked! I agree with setting
up a program to "safely" dispose of these units in the future... but 9% of the purchase price!? This is a disgusting money grab... same old
story! They bombarded us for decades with "end of the world" warnings and blamed us for our materialistic lifestyles, thereby turning the environment
into the unquestionable God of our times...... the result is that now they can tax and fine us to absurdly exaggerated proportions and nobody will
bat an eye because it is for the Great Environment God...
They have abused the true and honourable concept of Honest Environmentalism.
Has anyone out there heard of Agenda 21 what they are planning to do (are doing already) in the name of "sustainable development"?
[ok, that's my rant for today  ]
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Of course all the fees they collect go nowhere near a real solution. My personal view is that manufacturers who package with more than a minimum of
plastic should pay to have the packaging recovered and re-used. It's disgusting to fight opening a package only to throw it in the trash. The rigid
stuff also takes up a huge volume of nothing, adding to the cost of disposal.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | | Of course all the fees they collect go nowhere near a real solution. My personal view is that manufacturers who package with more than a minimum of
plastic should pay to have the packaging recovered and re-used. It's disgusting to fight opening a package only to throw it in the trash. The rigid
stuff also takes up a huge volume of nothing, adding to the cost of disposal. |
well there is a really problem... Chinese powertools are insanely cheap, but only last 1 year. The ENVIRONMENTAL FEE in Canada is slapped on
anything that you plug into the wall... So of course it makes sense to have disposal fee put on a cheap tool that will only last a year. But 9%?
...what about 1%?? It would not cost more than this... the other 8% goes into their pockets.
Furthermore, what about those noble people who still buy high quality western made powertools? Tools that will last 20 years or more? ...the people
not only pay more for the tool but have to pay also 9% of that high price for the ENVIRONMENTAL FEE...... so the result will in fact be that this
stupid fee will simply push even more people to buy the cheap chinese stuff because the fee assumes that that is what everybody is doing anyway!!!!
How stupid can you get?!
Why not simply nip the problem in the bud and refuse to allow into the country products that employ slave-wage labour?! That way tools will remain
high priced and high quality and there will not be this problem of what to do with all these broken cheap tools and electronics!?
ok, it is more complex than that - but the bottom line is that the environmental movement has been hi-jacked.
that's rant #2 for today
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Incompetence rules the world 
Regarding that Canadian environment fee ... that's nothing more than a renamed VAT.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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"The Canadian environment fee ... that's nothing more than a renamed VAT". Well no it isn't Aymara - we also have an add on tax known as HST
(Harmonised Sales Tax - as well as a General Sales Tax or GST and Provincial Sales Tax or PST).
In the Province of Ontario we are also governed by would be 'save the planet' politicians and self styled environmentalists living in their 'big city'
ivory towers - all out of touch with reality. So we have 'environmental disposal fees' slapped on products like paint, car tires, electronics etc -
yet the current government has yet to reveal how those collected taxes are to be spent on environmentally disposing of those products. In the meantime
we rural dwellers have set up our own efficient local recycling programs (paid for by our additional municipal taxes, of course!) to deal with the
'problem'. Some of us have also invested in the environmental future converting our land to tree plantations - if they ever survive in the current
rapidly changing environmental conditions (not that we will ever see any income from these ventures in our lifetime - trees grow slowly - but we do
enjoy the trees and wildlife they attract and the dead trees provide us with heat in the frigid Canadian winters).
So back to the topic!
Exotic woods have always been relatively costly throughout the centuries. One efficient way to utilise these woods is to convert them into thin
veneer. Veneer wood in the 19th C and earlier was sawn (often by hand) with special thin kerf saws. Today veneer wood is a lot thinner and is produced
by machine which slices the log with a knife (knife cut veneer) that might be as thin as 1/100 inch.
Veneer is usually glued to a lower cost (stable) wood to give the impression that a piece of furniture is made from solid rosewood or mahogany or
whatever, at a fraction of the cost.
Does this technique have an application for musical instruments. Historically - yes it does - not only for the casework of keyboard instruments like
organs and pianos but also for guitars. For example high quality mid 19th French guitars by Grobert of Mirecourt, near Paris - the backs were made
from softwood veneered with Brazilian Rosewood. I recently made a copy of one of these guitars using some old warehouse stock of knife cut Brazilian
rosewood veneer purchased from Lee Valley, Ottawa many years ago. Not having any 'solid' rosewood, the sides of the guitar (matching the back) were
made by laminating three layers of the veneer (i.e. a Brazilian rosewood plywood) that were then hot bent to the required profile.
So, veneer plywood may have a useful application for quality instruments (not just in cheap factory made instruments).
I am currently thinking about using laminated veneer for making fluted ribs. More on that later - perhaps.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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I would be interested to hear your experience with laminating veneer into guitar sides.
Recently someone gave me a ton of nice mahogany 0.6mm veneer and I tried to make oud ribs from this. I made a solid mould from MDF and then glued 3
layers of veneer to eachother on this mould - so the result was a perfectly shaped rib without any bending. The middle layer was 1mm pine, so the
total thickness was 2.2mm. My only doubt was that the resultiing rib seemed to lack rigidity... I am sure I would need another layer of veneer
bringing the total to 2.8mm which I guess is not too heavy. This would actually work I am guessiing... and I think would actually be easier in the
long run because bending would not be necessary.
John, in your opinion would this 'plywood' bowel cause inferior tone?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | yet the current government has yet to reveal how those collected taxes are to be spent on environmentally disposing of those products.
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Will they ever do that? I doubt that. That's why I call it a hidden VAT, because you'll never know, how the state uses this income.
But back to topic:
| Quote: |
Does this technique have an application for musical instruments.
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It's nowaydays often used for electric guitars and basses.
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I am currently thinking about using laminated veneer for making fluted ribs.
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Interesting, but wouldn't it be more useful on neck and pegbox? As Edward already said ... isn't an influence on sound to be expected, when building
veneered rips ... and how about the stability?
Interesting topic, worth a new thread!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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We are talking here about acoustic not electrical instruments. Veneered necks and pegboxes are, of course, traditional practice.
Plywood is a very stable material. The geometry of an oud bowl - is like an egg shell - very rigid and strong once assembled from individual ribs so I
very much doubt if there would be any significant acoustic difference between one made from, say, ribs of thin Birch aircraft grade plywood and one
made of ribs from rosewood or any other materials all else - like the volume of the bowl - being equal (apart from the cost!). It is the sound board
and bracing that are of primary importance acoustically.
It would not, of course, be possible to round off a bowl exterior profile built from veneered ribs - the finished bowl would be lute like with faceted
ribs accurately fitted.
I have heard of pine being used historically for lute bowls but have never found an extant example - probably because softwoods are more difficult to
hot bend than most hardwoods.
For stability, 3 piece (3ply) plywood is usually constructed with the grain of the centre core at right angles to that of the outer laminations. Also
when veneering a piece of core wood both front and back faces must be veneered to counterbalance shrinkage forces and prevent 'cupping' of the work -
at least if a traditional hot hide glue 'iron on' procedure is used.
Plywood can be hot bent - I have made fitted lute cases from the material.
Food for another topic, however, that I might initiate with my experience in building the 'Grobert' guitar - before memory completely fades.
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