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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
Registered: 2-26-2012
Location: North West England
Member Is Offline
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It was a joke Jody! I am fully aware you did not mean the pop singer. I thought that it was a good joke but obviously it has been lost on you.
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jass
Oud Maniac
Posts: 95
Registered: 11-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Faruk says "Let me enunciate proudly and arrogantly that:
I AM THE ONLY MAN WHO HAVE EXPLORED ALL THE "SECRETS" OF THE OUD IN THE HISTORY !!!!"
They say that the spirit of the maker is in each instrument, if this is the spirit, I wont be jumping to buy one anytime soon. I dont care how good
they sound, I think Turunz lack of modesty and attitude in the post shows his inability to accept criticism graciously. Customers have the right to
criticise, question, scrutinize and share opinions on manufacture, sound etc especially when they have to hand over thousands of dollars.
I am offended by his statements, and shows a great disrespect to great oud makers of the past, forum members opinions. He's unlocked all the secrets
has he? Unbelieveable!
It is a shame, that Turunz, a person with great respect on these forums should come on and act in this manner, calling people prigs, whatever that is,
as a professional luthier unacceptable. Especially taking offense to forum members that have sung his praises, its not a dictatorship, this is a forum
and people can speak, or can we only say good things about Turunz ouds?
Good luck to you Mr Turunz, but after this forum post, it really brought many things to light, your aggressive attitude, and tone wasnt really
warranted considering what was said before your post. Needless to say, you have lost as a future customer, and I will not interested in any in any
developments with your instruments.
In general when choosing an oud, go with a maker your comfortable with and friendly to deal with, that meets your needs as a player...expensive doesnt
automatically mean great...Good luck to everyone!
Humbly,
Jass.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
Registered: 2-26-2012
Location: North West England
Member Is Offline
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I agree with you Jass. i was thinking to write a post in a similar vein. I was also very interested in Faruk's offer;
"Which smart Alec has constructed 1500-1600 ouds in his life and which naive READER is incapable to understand what's going on here. Those gentlemen
have never contacted me personally through my e-mail address and they just abuse these forums' pages for priggery.
If they contact me via my e-mail to order an "ARABIC OUD" which will fit to their rudimentary delight, I MAKE THAT OUD FOR THEM WITHOUT CHARGING A
PENNY .
But they don't have this sort of self confidence to do this."
So i sent an e-mail asking for my deserved, free "Arabic Oud". needless to say I have had no reply. Perhaps it is my mistake, I didnt write my
specifications. So here we go;
I won't ask for something fancy just basic
A double top
Bowl
Burma Teak +300 USD
Purple Heart (Amaranth) +500 USD
Rosette:
Rosewood +100USD
Pickguard:
Turtle shell +300 USD
Mother of Pearl Rings:
Around the Rosettes (for Double Top) +300 USD
Armrest:
Rosewood +100 USD
Soundboard Finish:
French Polish +200 USD
Size Customization:
7 Course +200 USD
Handmade Custom Hard Case for Faruk Türünz Ouds: +200 USD
Ofcourse this would all be free of charge.
Anyway I think he shows a lack of integrity and that he is a man who says things he doesn't mean to try and impress or to shock! I never expected
bravado from a luthier!!!
previous to his post I had considered his Ouds some of the best, and always thought that when the time came I would like to purchase one, however now
I think again about that!
so thats 2 future customers.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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Quote: Originally posted by oudistcamp  | Two weeks ago, Faruk and I spent a full day together calculating and analysing the Brace Tuning Method. It makes so much sense and sheds light as to
why certain ouds sound the way they do.
The Brace Tuning Method is openly available to anyone who is interested with an open mind. After fully understanding it, you are free to accept it or
not. Prior to that, any criticism of the Method is a display of ignorance tinted by prejudice. |
This sounds very interesting. I don't understand the second half of your post, maybe I missed where somebody criticized his method?
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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...now, explain to me the difference between your treatment of Faruk and Faruk's treatment of the "prigs"? If Faruk is not allowed to take offence
and vocalise that disrespectfully- then why are you?
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jack
Oud Junkie
Posts: 116
Registered: 4-5-2010
Member Is Offline
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How true this is.
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1061
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi |
P.s. where suz_i_dill says "arabic, arabian, or whatever else" Arabic is the language and Arabian is anything coming out of the Arab world, just a
quick clarification. |
Hi Bodhi, I just meant than " arabic " is too dimness to be informative. When you refer to language arabic, shall we understand coloquial or dialectal
arabic ? Arabic from Yemen , Tchad, Morocco or Syria ?
As much as there are many arabic dialects, I cannot conceptualize a single normative arabic sounding oud.
A little bit like I hear the terminology of arabic music ... Iraki maqam, wasla from Aleppo, maaluf ? All sound very different.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | How thick is thin and how light is heavy?
If some 'Arabic' ouds made today are relatively heavily built with thick sound boards this would seem to be a modern trend - made possible by the
relatively late invention of nylon trebles and metal wound basses allowing, in turn, low pitch tuning and greater volume of sound.
In the past 'thin' wood would seem to have been the order of the day for oud construction (as it was and still is for the lute). As 14th C Ibn
al-Tahhan al- Musiqi has to say " Seasoned larch wood, without flaws, is cut very thin for the sound board. It should be of two or three pieces rather
than one piece. The bowl should be of thinner wood ...".
No indication of thickness measurement of course but my old (early 20th C?) Egyptian oud has a pine sound board of measured thickness averaging about
1.8 mm - somewhat thicker in the central areas and somewhat thinner around the edges. Actual average thickness, however, is somewhat thinner than this
as the whole underside of the sound board is scored with fine grooves made with a toothing plane. Total weight unstrung is 0.9 Kg (including the
soundboard weight of 0.14 Kg)
By way of comparison, the somewhat smaller 7 course lute, 60 cm string length, that I regularly play weighs - fully strung - 0.56 Kg.
Do we have any similar measured data for Arabic and Turkish ouds?
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Sort of...
Of course when you get up to the level of professionally made instruments for top players, then in every case soundboards and bracing will be very
light and well made...
...but what I have done extensively in both Istanbul and Cairo (and other places) is to have a look at how common cheap and mid-priced oud are being
built.
What I noticed is that if you compare 50 mid-priced ouds in Istanbul with 50 mid-priced ouds in Cairo, you can easily see a clear pattern. The Turkish
ouds have 2mm soundboards and max brace heights of 15mm and the 3rd brace is always around 5mm. And no soundboard varnish.
In Cairo the soundboards are more like 2.5mm with heavy varnish. Braces tend to be between 2 and 3cm tall....
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jass
Oud Maniac
Posts: 95
Registered: 11-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Edward,
I dont think I have vocalised disrespectfully, and apologise if they come across that way. But that does not excuse Turunz or his words, a case of two
wrongs dont make a right. I am also not a professional oud maker, but I would imagine in any field, I would try to not bite the hand that may feed me.
I know you are friends with Turunz, but hope you would see this in an unbiased way. His manner of reply doesnt seem odd to you or offend you? really?
You obviously think that he vocalised disrespectfully by your last statement...
"We wound our modesty and make foul the clearness of our deservings, when of ourselves we publish them." - William Shakespeare  )
Jass.
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jass
Oud Maniac
Posts: 95
Registered: 11-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Ps. We are ofcourse able to say what we want, the beauty of free speech, but there are consequences to our words. I would imagine Turunz has more to
loose than alot of the forum members commenting, by Turunz answering in such a way, this could harm his otherwise good reputation, whereas Im not
loosing sleep over this post... 
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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Hi Jass
...scolding someone publicly is not disrespectful?
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jass
Oud Maniac
Posts: 95
Registered: 11-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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What scolding?
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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Jass... my own initial "knee-jerk" reaction to Faruk's comments was the same as yours.
But let's just stand back a moment... Let's look at the typical historical development of all instruments: violin, classical guitar... etc for
example. These instruments went through a very long period of development until ultimately they reached a kind of peak of perfection in design and
from that point onward any improvement became seemingly impossible.
It is the same with various genres of music - there is a long period of development which eventually culminates in a peak.
So perhaps, just perhaps... I really don't know, but perhaps Faruk has come across a discovery that will be that last final push towards bringing
the design and construction of the oud to this "final peak"? What Faruk is saying (admittedly not very diplomatically) is that he believes this to be
the case.
Personally I think Faruk is onto something important.
Of course it sounds absurd when someone says they know all the secrets, and of course this can never be true literally... however it just might be
true that he has discovered a big enough and important enough secret about oud making that all the other secrets pale in comparison.
Only time will tell.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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| Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell | I really don't know, but perhaps Faruk has come across a discovery that will be that last final push towards bringing the design and construction of
the oud to this "final peak"? What Faruk is saying (admittedly not very diplomatically) is that he believes this to be the case.
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Actually, I think that this is probably the case, this is why he is able to build such 'pure'-sounding instruments without the peculiar idiosyncrasies
of other ouds (either Turkish or Arabic).
A similar comparison might be to Stradivarius, Amati, Gagliano, their violins are quite different and purer-sounding compared to the more
idiosyncratic instruments of the medieval and renaissance, even baroque periods.
What is "Turkish-sounding" or "Arabic-sounding" could be considered a collection of charming flaws in acoustical production (from one perspective).
That some people like those sounds despite a more acoustically perfect sound being available is due to traditions and cultural associations.
Perhaps a similar analogy: John D'Angelico pretty much perfected the archtop guitar from an acoustical standpoint. His designs were based on those of
Gibson, but with a great deal of subtle inquiry into improved acoustical response. Those designs were further refined by Jimmy D'Aquisto and later
Robert Benedetto and other modern luthiers.
Yet despite the clarity, projection and purity of sound of a Benedetto, many people still prefer to play Gibsons (especially old ones), because the
peculiarities of the sound are appealing for various reasons.
Which is why I have repeatedly said that Turunz makes great-sounding ouds, but they are his own sound.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi | | It was a joke Jody! I am fully aware you did not mean the pop singer. I thought that it was a good joke but obviously it has been lost on you.
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This is probably the first time I have been publicly reprimanded for not being sufficiently aware of tabloid "news". Things may not be as obvious as
you think they are. Of course I knew it was a joke and of course I knew you were aware I didn't mean *that* George but I wonder if you were aware of
the George I did mean. Your joke was at his expense and at mine and although I thought it humorous, at the same time I found it unseemly to connect
the music of The George I Meant with toilet humor. However, am I the only forum member who found some humor in Faruk Tarunz's posts?
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi | I agree with you Jass. i was thinking to write a post in a similar vein. I was also very interested in Faruk's offer;
"Which smart Alec has constructed 1500-1600 ouds in his life and which naive READER is incapable to understand what's going on here. Those gentlemen
have never contacted me personally through my e-mail address and they just abuse these forums' pages for priggery.
If they contact me via my e-mail to order an "ARABIC OUD" which will fit to their rudimentary delight, I MAKE THAT OUD FOR THEM WITHOUT CHARGING A
PENNY .
But they don't have this sort of self confidence to do this."
So i sent an e-mail asking for my deserved, free "Arabic Oud". needless to say I have had no reply. Perhaps it is my mistake, I didnt write my
specifications. So here we go;
I won't ask for something fancy just basic
A double top
Bowl
Burma Teak +300 USD
Purple Heart (Amaranth) +500 USD
Rosette:
Rosewood +100USD
Pickguard:
Turtle shell +300 USD
Mother of Pearl Rings:
Around the Rosettes (for Double Top) +300 USD
Armrest:
Rosewood +100 USD
Soundboard Finish:
French Polish +200 USD
Size Customization:
7 Course +200 USD
Handmade Custom Hard Case for Faruk Türünz Ouds: +200 USD
Ofcourse this would all be free of charge.
Anyway I think he shows a lack of integrity and that he is a man who says things he doesn't mean to try and impress or to shock! I never expected
bravado from a luthier!!!
previous to his post I had considered his Ouds some of the best, and always thought that when the time came I would like to purchase one, however now
I think again about that!
so thats 2 future customers.
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Bodhi, go to Faruk with and open-mind and an open-heart, and you will be hard pressed to find a more generous man anywhere. That's what I did - I
asked for nothing except for a little discussion regarding acoustics - - and what I received back for free is worth far more than the oud you are
asking for.
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jass
Oud Maniac
Posts: 95
Registered: 11-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Unfortunately most oud players arent looking for a "new sound", and I am not denying that Turunz instrument have their own tone, but most arent
looking for this. Simply, most players want a turkish oud that sounds like a Manol and and Arabic oud that sounds like a Nahat (or the sound Farid can
produce
Unfortunately, Turunz cannot emulate this, because this is due to the secrets of their (Manol and Nahat) construction, people have tried and failed.
Just like the Stradivarius, violin makers have tried but they are never the same. Turunz claims he can make any sound you want, this is not true and
you can hear it in the instruments. His Turkish ouds dont sound like Manols and his Arabic ouds dont sound like Nahats. That is the issue. Turunz ouds
are a certain sound, neither Arabic or Turkish.
Theres no doubt Turunz has made developments in oud making and congratulations to him, but his claims of I AM THE ONLY MAN WHO HAVE EXPLORED ALL THE
"SECRETS" OF THE OUD IN THE HISTORY !!!!" are absurd and an example of delusions of grandeur, but he himself knows that he does say "proudly and
arrogantly".
Edward, you're still not seeing things unbiasedly, "Final Peak?" You sound like he's invented the oud, or is in a labratory with chemicals on the
brink of something that has never been discovered There will never be a final
peak, people drive to constantly better and improve and innovate, thats fine, but he's fr off a final peak, even if he believes so...Do you play a
Turunz or own one? From the clips I see from your playing with Mohamed Antar, I believe that might be a Marko oud from Egypt no?
You're just adding to Turunz ego by some of the comments you make towards him, I know you like him etc but you have to be impartial, alot of things
you say here are exaggerated and I suspect you kinda know that. There are many great makers at the moment who are honest and hard working and have
developed so much in oud construction, perhaps they are just more modest about it, dont have a flashy website and have not the language skills to work
these forums. So lets chill out, Turunz is a great oud maker, but one of many. The bench that modern makers are trying to emulate are based on the
great masters of the past, which Turunz should be humbled to be even mentioned with them, not claim that he has done more work than them in terms of
development. Its a statement that cannot be proven and really doesnt actually matter if youre not getting the results. Just like music, someone can
know alot of theory etc but does not neccessarily make them a great musician or have the soul of an artist. Just a few thoughts to ponder.
Peace.
Jass.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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Hi Jass... you make good points and your opinions are well respected.
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reminore
Oud Junkie
Posts: 108
Registered: 10-30-2010
Location: Binghamton, NY
Member Is Offline
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a few observations...perhaps some of the difficulty in this thread is the fact that it is in english...faruk turunz does an admirable job holding his
own in english - the subtleties of this conversation would certainly have been different if it had been conducted in turkish! perhaps faruk would
have struck the proper tone and his choice of adjectives would have been more exact.
i spent a week with him on crete at ross daly's place and had many conversations with him in turkish - i always found him to be an extremely eloquent
speaker with a rich vocabulary of arabic/ottoman turkish words...and a style of politeness in speech that one doesn't hear today....
he also made great efforts to learn greek, something that we greeks enjoyed...
why are people on the forum so hung up on the distinctions between arabic and turkish ouds anyway? what does arabic mean when in the same breath one
speaks of a maghrabi and a halabi oud? the culture, language, approach to makam are all completely different...turkish ouds are a relatively new
construct - really born out of the design of manolis venios, the greek ottoman luthier in istanbul. we are really talking about istanbul ouds when
people use the misnomer 'turkish'...not to mention that most of the great earlier 20th c. makers were armenian! only now are people BEGINNING to
research the relationship of oud making in istanbul to the surrounding hinterland and further afield. we still know very little about the development
of the oud in what is today turkey...
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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| Quote: Originally posted by reminore | a few observations...perhaps some of the difficulty in this thread is the fact that it is in english...faruk turunz does an admirable job holding his
own in english - the subtleties of this conversation would certainly have been different if it had been conducted in turkish! perhaps faruk would
have struck the proper tone and his choice of adjectives would have been more exact.
i spent a week with him on crete at ross daly's place and had many conversations with him in turkish - i always found him to be an extremely eloquent
speaker with a rich vocabulary of arabic/ottoman turkish words...and a style of politeness in speech that one doesn't hear today....
he also made great efforts to learn greek, something that we greeks enjoyed...
why are people on the forum so hung up on the distinctions between arabic and turkish ouds anyway? what does arabic mean when in the same breath one
speaks of a maghrabi and a halabi oud? the culture, language, approach to makam are all completely different...turkish ouds are a relatively new
construct - really born out of the design of manolis venios, the greek ottoman luthier in istanbul. we are really talking about istanbul ouds when
people use the misnomer 'turkish'...not to mention that most of the great earlier 20th c. makers were armenian! only now are people BEGINNING to
research the relationship of oud making in istanbul to the surrounding hinterland and further afield. we still know very little about the development
of the oud in what is today turkey...
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Hello to all again!
Unfortunatelly I've squendered the pure energy I was filled in Ross Daly's place in Crete within one week by involving in this thread.
I just used a very heavy beetle on purpose (underlying that I had been proud and arrogant) to crush the "prejudices" by being so rude, ventured to
seem having a delusions of grandeur making that funny assertion: I AM THE ONLY MAN WHO HAVE EXPLORED ALL THE "SECRETS" OF THE OUD IN THE HISTORY
!!!!
So the components leading the "prejudice" crystallized. Many thanks to those unloaded resentments. There is no need to thank to those who have
transcribed the humor in my assertion. There must be an invisible string between our souls. They do not need any "explanation" or clue to know what I
am talking about. And of course I feel their warmth through that invisible media.
My appearance on the Mike's Forums and even my name being mentioned, affect as a litmus paper: All the accumulated hidden rage and endearment come to
the fore. This only might have arrogated the tone I'd used and delusions of grandeur to me. But the truth is not that. I gratitude all the old masters
and have a vast respect to all living colleagues and to their works.
I am easy in my mind for those who have known me will see it at once when making that funny assertion I am tipping them to the wink with sympathy  and pressing the flesh, shaking hands with them with affection. They all know how
humble I am and always admiring their efforts I make them feel how I am indebted to their "existence".
With attachment and respect...
A friend of all cons and pros
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Khalid_Salé
Oud Maniac
Posts: 82
Registered: 9-14-2010
Location: Morocco
Member Is Offline
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No, I found them funny too and I assumed they were tongue-in-cheek (at least a little bit). Maybe the oud world needs a Muhammad Ali (the boxer, not
the sultan). I certainly won't be turning down a Tarunz oud if one is sent my way!
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
Registered: 2-26-2012
Location: North West England
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher |
This is probably the first time I have been publicly reprimanded for not being sufficiently aware of tabloid "news". Things may not be as obvious as
you think they are. Of course I knew it was a joke and of course I knew you were aware I didn't mean *that* George but I wonder if you were aware of
the George I did mean. Your joke was at his expense and at mine and although I thought it humorous, at the same time I found it unseemly to connect
the music of The George I Meant with toilet humor. |
No Jody I did not know the George Michel you talk of, however this is due to having little interest in Arab music. How does that change the joke? How
my Master would say "I am absolutely free to be funny".
Edward,
The free Oud was really not the point. I don't expect to ever receive one nor to those crazy specs. That was sarcasm. I also stated that I think again
about Turunz and his Ouds, perhaps if I meet him and he charms me then I can always change my mind. It is not only women who are allowed that.
Now a sincere question:
Which order are you with Mr Turunz?
I spent time with Raik Baba of the Rufai in Istanbul, perhaps you know him?
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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Yeah Khalid_Salé !!!
But not it's me of course... for I'm pretty minion
I may just use a very heavy beetle to crush "prejudices".
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi |
Which order are you with Mr Turunz?
I spent time with Raik Baba of the Rufai in Istanbul, perhaps you know him? |
Hi Bodhi, I don't understand your question... "order"??
I don't know Raik Baba... who is it?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Quite a thread. I assume all people have funny personality traits, and it's wonderful. Mr Turunz is excitable and assertive, and that's a good thing
in an oud, in an exchange of views and in life, when tempered by reason and a kind heart, which Mr Turunz also seems to display.
Maybe this originally wasn't even the right place to get into the "Arabic" vs. "Turkish" discussion, but since it's here, I still would love to hear
WHAT Mr Turunz has observed about the timbre of these regional instruments. Can he help summarize these observations, and also, and this is a
slightly different matter, how his own Turkish vs. Arabic ouds sound and behave?
This doesn't have to be a futile or irritating thing. For me, this conversation has been enlightening. It led me, for instance, to appreciate more
deeply the way my Shehata behaves. It's a peculiar thing, that it has a lot of the top of a Turkish oud, yet at the core seems decidedly Arabic.
Eddie's distinction between modern and old Turkish timbres is very important. Jody's vowel analogy is also very good. And I think we can all agree
that the best modern ouds are optimized with less slavish attachment to traditional preferences. And yet, they persist. So come on, Mr Turunz, please,
don't mystify, share your expertise!
In another thread you mention your further experiments, and the Arabic oud's "percussive attack and shorter decaying of the overtones." Can you go
further please?
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