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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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Quote: Originally posted by Bodhi  |
No Jody I did not know the George Michel you talk of, however this is due to having little interest in Arab music. How does that change the joke?
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What is changed is the nuance of the joke. If you did know of George Michel the joke might be perceived as malicious instead of silly. I was
assuming you did not know of him. George Michel the oud player is not merely a sound. He is a real person, a fine and sensitive musician, an excellent
teacher and a master of Maqam, and he has done you no harm. Because the joke was in the context of an international forum, to connect an
inspirational oud player to the antics of the Other George would be quite shocking. To connect a mere homonym to the Other George is not harmful in
intent.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
Registered: 2-26-2012
Location: North West England
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I think you are talking non-sense. I think I will reserve my jokes for more reasonable people in the future.
Sorry Edward,
The last two questions were aimed at Mr Turunz not yourself. Didn't mean to confuse.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Gentlemen, gentlemen! Must I remind you that the "other" George is also a human being, and with some modest skills, even?
To return to ouds, I just listened to clip of the double soundboard oud that Mr Turunz built and says is obviously Turkish, and it has the wonderful
growl we were discussing as a modern and not old style Turkish sound. I confess I love that more than the purely midrangey "oo" of the older Turkish
Eddie likes. I'd say that by now that's become one distinguishing feature of "Turkish".
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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Arabs have never agreed upon one thing ever in the past, so why are they supposed to agree upon how an Arabian oud should sound like ? When
talking about Arabian ouds, are Iraqi ouds included ? Are Algerians ? Are Mauritanians ? Are Libyans ?
The so-called Arabian oud is what the Egyptian, Syrian, Moroccan, Palestinian players have instilled in our collective memories: Late Sunbaty,
Abdelwahab, Qasabjy, & even George Michel, Naqshabandy (RIP) & long-live Naser Houari, Anwar Brahim, Simone Shaheen, etc. among others.
Arabian oud is usually bigger molded (52-3/36/19-20 cm) with 61-63 cm. scale, well-balanced, bassy, a bit percussive, higher action, no buzzing, with
fewer harmonic. I may dare to say it sounds closer to a consonant than to a vowel, less delay or sustain, euphonic, mellow, warm, tuneful or whatever
vocabulary one may find to translate the Arabic word Rakheem رخيم . This is Arabian oud for me only, while it's not
necessarily the same to an Iraqi or a Saudi or a Kuwaiti or an Algerian or whosoever !
No one but who has listened to Arabian oud for a lifetime is capable of defining what an Arabian oud should sound like. Master Faruk is one of the
finest living Luthiers, yet he has not seen nor listened to Arabian ouds as much as he did with Turkish ouds. Therefore, he's capable of making great
Turkish ouds, but Arabian ? I doubt it very much. Nonetheless, he has surprised me a lot in the recent past, since I last met him in Amman/Jordan back
in 2003 !
Time and experience would tell .
Good luck to you all
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
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I totally agree with your clarification of "Arabian". Yes, it is highly vague. Nevermore, it is a big challenge for us (luthiers) to try to make
replicas of those typically different "Arabian" ouds or at least try to make some of the ouds we construct sound like the original ones.
Thank you and regards 
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danieletarab
Oud Junkie
Posts: 213
Registered: 1-18-2009
Location: Palermo (Italy)
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Oh oh.. I didn't expect to give birth to a such intresting and passionate discussion with my very simple question :-) I thank all of you. This
discussion has been very enlighting. And I really hope that peace has returned to reign among all the oud players and luthiers!!!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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OK, since Mr Turunz won't risk a characterization of "Arabian" vs. "Turkish" oudishness, I, having trodden the fathoms of the depths, ever with an eye
to the advancement of mankind (and something tasty to eat), will unveil before you now the Ancient Arcanum. The salient difference (barring damage, or
parts theft), is that the Arabian oud sports an even number of pegs, and the Turkish an odd number.
p.s. it is perhaps this economy in the pegbox that balances the neck not this way but that, and, making the bowl smaller, renders the Turkish player
unto characteristically ornamenting "pleeuk, pleeuk, pleeuk" on a string, rather than hocketing between octaves. 
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | OK, since Mr Turunz won't risk a characterization of "Arabian" vs. "Turkish" oudishness, I, having trodden the fathoms of the depths, ever with an eye
to the advancement of mankind (and something tasty to eat), will unveil before you now the Ancient Arcanum. The salient difference (barring damage, or
parts theft), is that the Arabian oud sports an even number of pegs, and the Turkish an odd number.
p.s. it is perhaps this economy in the pegbox that balances the neck not this way but that, and, making the bowl smaller, renders the Turkish player
unto characteristically ornamenting "pleeuk, pleeuk, pleeuk" on a string, rather than hocketing between octaves.
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I see that my attitude towards your “run in” was directed into a wrong and irrelevant aspect although I had clearly defined it. You are trying to
show as if I “wont risk a characterization of “Arabian” vs. “Turkish” “
I haven’t attempted to make an oud to sound “Old Arabian” But it will be a good task for me to make one. It is a very “soft” challange for
me. Maybe thanks to your provocative persistence on the issue notwithstanding a post is related to the topic you want to drag, or not; my customer
profile would expand. But in spite of endeavours to discredit my "Arabian Ouds" %95 of my customers are Arabs. They never take heed of rumors.
In order to unvail some Ancient Arcanum, you had better activate all your intellectual uptitudes and open your both eyes in a bewildering manner.
Advancement of mankind can be understood together with the artifacts’ advancement.
To understand the mechanism and/or the construction of ancient artifacts we need to be equipped with theory and knowledge. Starting from some
premises we may reach to some conclusions. We have to have a good command of scientific knowledge in the related area, to propose a true premise.
What I have done so far is to build an applicable theory covering the “Oud Construction Art”. With a great pleasure I want to share what I know
about it. I consider it as an assignment I was appointed during my short humanly existence. Eventually I have been shown the necessity of the
application of my theory and technique in replicas of old ouds sounding "Old Arabian"
I don’t see the fact that some Arabian Ouds sport an even number of pegs, and the Turkish an odd number in the way you interpret.
The reason is related to the different stiffness of the strings of the two type ouds. Turkish Ouds’ touch, sound and sonority is very soft
conveniently to the Turkish soul of music, ornamentation and spritually excellent Turkish tradition. Glissando is one of the techniques used very
frequently in the performance of almost every Turkish composition. Hard strings are neither suitable for the application of glissando nor good for
Turkish style hammerings (Çarpma)
The reason of the Turkish ouds’ odd numbered pegs (strings) is due to the risk of striking of the bass stirng(s) if they had been a pair.
Arabian Ouds thanks to their stiff strings do not pose risk for striking the bass pair.
With my best regards.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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String stiffness is a matter of personal preference of the player 
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion, that THE arabian oud doesn't exist!
There are so many types of arabian ouds ... 5, 6 or even 7 courses, different tunings, different string lengths, different bowls and sound holes, with
or without rosettes, floating or fixed bridge, etc..
The only difference, they all have in common to the Turkish oud is a deeper tuning. Even the so called bassier sound doesn't exist in every arabian
oud.
What are your thoughts?
And how about Turkish ouds ... are there similar differences? I guess there are less?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
String stiffness is a matter of personal preference of the player
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion, that THE arabian oud doesn't exist!
There are so many types of arabian ouds ... 5, 6 or even 7 courses, different tunings, different string lengths, different bowls and sound holes, with
or without rosettes, floating or fixed bridge, etc..
The only difference, they all have in common to the Turkish oud is a deeper tuning. Even the so called bassier sound doesn't exist in every arabian
oud.
What are your thoughts?
And how about Turkish ouds ... are there similar differences? I guess there are less? |
I first realized the bizarre phenomenon 29 years ago that the inner structure of an oud determines the "stiffness" of the strings'
oscillation on it. It is not related to the gauge of the strings so it may be bound to personal preference of the player to a limited degree.
I discussed this issue here : http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2945#pid191...
As for your expostulation of THE "Arabian Oud":
There are some different type ouds in terms of the ostensible features and also invisible but perceivable properties they possess.
In relation to the country they are made and the socio-cultural prospects for an "oud" determined by the environment and historical evolution of the
"musical life" are some determinants entail the direction of the oud's development and typology of that instrument.
In the Ottoman household ladies used to play oud and their music was in the form of songs in general. In the sultan's palace all forms of Turkish
music were performed. New makams were composed there by the composers and by some of Ottoman padishahs. The music was regarded as the finest art along
with poesy. Brutal strike of mızrap (plectrum, risha) was regarded as ill-suited to the tenderness of the spiritual pattern of the Ottoman
music. The difference in the evolution of the musical instruments may be seen as the indicators of the cultural life's paradigms.
A culture blossomed in the desert no doubt is as meritorious as another culture dwelling in İstanbul situated at the crossroad of many different
cultures of many divergent civilizations.
Plugging the strings harshly was a must in the desert to make the instrument produce an audible sound in the open space even if they were dwelling in
nomad tents; the musicians felt unrest for being surrounded by the absorbing tent material which was haircloth in general. They developed a special
risha technique to overcome these unavoidable factors. Of course the response of the instrument should be proper for that harsh strokes. The luthiers
must have found out that the inner structure of an instrument -oud in our case- is the dominant factor for the quality of the response of the
instrument rather than the strings' gauge. The more stiff the instrument the more stiff the strings' reaction. It is like the impression when someone
bouncing on a bed-spring: The more the spring is soft the more one feels softer reaction and viceversa..the more stiff the spring the more vibrant the
bounce...
We now can extract a consequence from the very brief summary above: All the different types of the oud instrument have reasonably comprehensible
historical evolution and are products engendered within an inseperable cultural background from the historical line of variation.
With my best regards
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Thanks, very interesting ... playing in tents ... never thought about it.
But nevertheless ... times changed a bit and so did the oud. I myself for example enjoy arabian ouds with 58,5cm string length, which miss this
stiffness and I love it. When I see, that several luthiers build such ouds, I seem to be not the only one loving this "softer touch".
On the other hand I love this deep warm bass
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
Thanks, very interesting ... playing in tents ... never thought about it.
But nevertheless ... times changed a bit and so did the oud. I myself for example enjoy arabian ouds with 58,5cm string length, which miss this
stiffness and I love it. When I see, that several luthiers build such ouds, I seem to be not the only one loving this "softer touch".
On the other hand I love this deep warm bass |
Of course times changed and what provokes this post and causes to drag on that much is the denial of this fact. I appreciate the antique and the
philosophy it spreads into our modern conception; the denial of changed taste of sound may be only a personal preference.
Nevertheless what I am induced to defend is just in that very point. I am not cheating while characterizing some of my ouds as "Arabian Oud". I am
well aware of that transformation in the oud's physical qualifications and in the transformation of the "popular" sound apprehension.
Many Arab oud players praise the sound of my ouds. Many of them own more than one oud from my workshop.
The only target we consider is customer satisfaction in regards of "business" but in regards of my attachment to the art of luthiery; it is
inexpressible...
I was inquired by a very well educated gentleman at the end of my presentation in Amman in 2003. The question was "What do you think about a perfect
oud? What are its peculiarities?"
My reply could not contain a certainty because I did not know the peculiarities of the PERFECT OUD. I was not sure and am not if there can be a
definition for the perfect oud. So I said " If we admit that we are capable to envision the PERFECT OUD it must have been placed at the "environment
of IDEAS" suggested by PLATO in the state of the "IDEAL OUD"
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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So in the end what I understand you do in making an Arabian oud, as opposed to a Turkish ones, is to optimize the soundboard bracing for the customary
Arabic tunings, to avoid the e.g. slack string phenomenon, but in timbre and playability you don't otherwise cater to that aesthetic. Is that correct?
I hasten to add this is in no way finding fault with your practices.
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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| Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz | But in spite of endeavours to discredit my "Arabian Ouds" %95 of my customers are Arabs.
"Many Arab oud players praise the sound of my ouds. Many of them own more than one oud from my workshop. " |
Master !
I've read this more than once ! So what !
We respect you & your devotion to your career. The fact you've consecrated the oud and dedicated your life to, is stately, very impressive. So
nobody tries to discredit any of your ouds, whether Arabian, Turkish, or just Faruk Turunz's ouds. Be sure !
If 95 % of a French perfume's costumers are Japanese, does this make this particular perfume more Japanese ? I wonder !
Arabs, like other nations, like your ouds, notwithstanding the fact they sound Arabian or not, so they own them. Arabs (despite the fact I'm
not their official appointed spokesman) just find your ouds to be of great craftsmanship, accurate, smooth, comfortable, easy to handle, clear, clean
sounded, etc. Therefore they decide to purchase them & not because they sound Arabian to their ears. They just don't, at least not to the
"spokesman's" ! Not having a luthier of your high ranking stature, credit & credibility, they just decide to "smell your perfume" !
Furthermore, this does not give you any more credit, because Arabs, who count 300 million inhabitants, are the main basic stock costumers of ouds, so
eventually they consist the major section in your costumers database. On the other hand this may sound like someone is slandering your life project by
saying 95 % of your costumers are of one national background, while only 5% are from all other nations &/or races ! I don't know. but this sounds
more "discrediting" than any other statement that has been said here, or even insinuated. Excuse me.
Back in 2003, when I had the honor to meet you & discuss oud issues with you in Amman/Jordan, you told me you have made your first Arabian oud
(for our both common friend Dr. Michael Maroun, today's dean of Oriental Music Department in "Jerusalem Academy Of Music & Dance"). 9 years later,
you declare: "I haven’t attempted to make an oud to sound “Old Arabian” , but it will be a good task for me to make one." So what kind of ouds
you were making these last 9 years ? What is Faruk Turunz's Arabian oud you have been selling to your costumers the last decade or so ?
Not discrediting, just asking !
I'm still on hold to hear your coming up old Arabian oud you've promised. Once it sounds Arabian to my flat, twisted, heavy, half deaf nomad's ear, I
shall join the 95` club.
I wish I have never read this tent theory. No offense, but one should have read millions of pages about the history of "Arabs & The Oud",
before deciding to initiate such a belabour, but this is an oud forum, not a historical nor a cultural one.
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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One of the wonders of the world is most certainly this forum. In spite of enormous differences we manage to always cooperate. I suspect The Tent
Theory, may it be enshrined, was advanced in the same absurdist spirit as my Theory of The Unbalanced Pegbox. Humor is a delicate derivative of
language, hard to be sure.
The more serious question that emerged here was what constitutes Arabian as opposed to Turkish oud timbre and character, and, without in the least
criticizing Mr Turunz, and this being a different question, what he changes in an oud when making it Arabian.
Dearest Mr Turunz, I don't think anyone here is out to discredit what you do! But it is so difficult to define this difference, though many of us have
more or less precise inklings, we are hoping your observations will help, even if you choose not to embrace that "ancient Arabic" aesthetic. Are you
saying that a greater stiffness of the soundboard (?) is an old Arabic oud trait? I am still hoping for more specifics from you.
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
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Mood: hopeful
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"Finding fault with your practices"
Is it your primary duty here dearest fernandraynaud?
The only one who could find fault with my practices is I am including my desire in involving these discussions.
Finding faults in every single "object" is so easy. It is possible to find faults in the sequencing of the amino acids in the chromosome.
You would see my general approach to sorting out the faults and "perfection" (although it is non of your claims), if you had troubled yourself in
taking it into your consideration my words in the previous parts. "If we admit that we are capable to envision the PERFECT OUD it must have been
placed at the "environment of IDEAS" suggested by PLATO in the state of the "IDEAL OUD"
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
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Mood: hopeful
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I am really scared of your rage and exasperation.
I will wait for some time before posting my thoughts dealing with your criticism.
I am sorry if any of my words has offended you.
With respect.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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I have no "duty"here, and I have no idea why you're being sarcastic when i was being supportive. Thank you.
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Oud Freak
Oud Junkie
Posts: 291
Registered: 11-23-2007
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Mood: Oud Jerk
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| Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby | | Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz | But in spite of endeavours to discredit my "Arabian Ouds" %95 of my customers are Arabs.
"Many Arab oud players praise the sound of my ouds. Many of them own more than one oud from my workshop. " |
Master !
I've read this more than once ! So what !
We respect you & your devotion to your career. The fact you've consecrated the oud and dedicated your life to, is stately, very impressive. So
nobody tries to discredit any of your ouds, whether Arabian, Turkish, or just Faruk Turunz's ouds. Be sure !
If 95 % of a French perfume's costumers are Japanese, does this make this particular perfume more Japanese ? I wonder !
Arabs, like other nations, like your ouds, notwithstanding the fact they sound Arabian or not, so they own them. Arabs (despite the fact I'm
not their official appointed spokesman) just find your ouds to be of great craftsmanship, accurate, smooth, comfortable, easy to handle, clear, clean
sounded, etc. Therefore they decide to purchase them & not because they sound Arabian to their ears. They just don't, at least not to the
"spokesman's" ! Not having a luthier of your high ranking stature, credit & credibility, they just decide to "smell your perfume" !
Furthermore, this does not give you any more credit, because Arabs, who count 300 million inhabitants, are the main basic stock costumers of ouds, so
eventually they consist the major section in your costumers database. On the other hand this may sound like someone is slandering your life project by
saying 95 % of your costumers are of one national background, while only 5% are from all other nations &/or races ! I don't know. but this sounds
more "discrediting" than any other statement that has been said here, or even insinuated. Excuse me.
Back in 2003, when I had the honor to meet you & discuss oud issues with you in Amman/Jordan, you told me you have made your first Arabian oud
(for our both common friend Dr. Michael Maroun, today's dean of Oriental Music Department in "Jerusalem Academy Of Music & Dance"). 9 years later,
you declare: "I haven’t attempted to make an oud to sound “Old Arabian” , but it will be a good task for me to make one." So what kind of ouds
you were making these last 9 years ? What is Faruk Turunz's Arabian oud you have been selling to your costumers the last decade or so ?
Not discrediting, just asking !
I'm still on hold to hear your coming up old Arabian oud you've promised. Once it sounds Arabian to my flat, twisted, heavy, half deaf nomad's ear, I
shall join the 95` club.
I wish I have never read this tent theory. No offense, but one should have read millions of pages about the history of "Arabs & The Oud",
before deciding to initiate such a belabour, but this is an oud forum, not a historical nor a cultural one.
Yours indeed
Alfaraby |
I do not want to defend Mr. Turunz or anyone. As we know, Mr. Turunz makes great classy ouds in sound and appearance. Unfortunately I have not had the
chance to try one yet.
When Mr. Turunz says he makes arabian ouds and later he says he never wanted them to sound old arabian, I see no contradiction since the "old arabian"
sound, in my opinion needs to embellish and evolve. I think, by "old arabian sound", Mr. Turunz might have had in mind the sound of the instruments
which have the typical dead percussive sound which dies instantly and has absolutely no or a very reduced resonance... So, if mr Turunz makes
beautiful looking and sounding and resonating ouds, that does not make them less "arabian" at all...
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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Please calm down master. I'm not raged nor exasperated. There's nothing personified here, so please skip any personal remark, and if any emerged from
my latest post, I hereby renege. The only personal aspect here is that we do respect and give credit to all what you say & do ! So please.
I wasn't nor wanted to sound aggressive, so excuse me. I may have been & am a bit bitter regarding the tent theory, but I can skip this for now,
hoping not to get back to this issue once again.
In Arabic we use to say that disagreement does not spoil friendship . We all are
friends here, aren't we ?
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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Khalid_Salé
Oud Maniac
Posts: 82
Registered: 9-14-2010
Location: Morocco
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Question about tuning and how it affected construction:
It is my understanding that until the modern period, the 'Ottoman' oud was tuned to a very low (A)DEADG to play with the Mansur ney (Rast = G), and
that the newer tuning of EABEAD (or C#F#BEAD) was developed more recently to play with the cabaret ensembles that favoured the Bolahenk Ney (Rast =
D).* Wouldn't this have had a major effect on how the oud was constructed in Turkey?
*Hence the confusion over Turkish notation for oudists, since the theorists chose to use the G on the western stave to represent Rast (as per Mansur),
but the preference for the cabaret oud tuning (Bolahenk) became all-pervasive along oudists.
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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| Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby | Please calm down master. I'm not raged nor exasperated. There's nothing personified here, so please skip any personal remark, and if any emerged from
my latest post, I hereby renege. The only personal aspect here is that we do respect and give credit to all what you say & do ! So please.
I wasn't nor wanted to sound aggressive, so excuse me. I may have been & am a bit bitter regarding the tent theory, but I can skip this for now,
hoping not to get back to this issue once again.
In Arabic we use to say that disagreement does not spoil friendship . We all are
friends here, aren't we ?
Yours indeed
Alfaraby |
I appreciate your main (longer one) post and take it as a serious criticism to be replied.
Of course we are friends forever and noone here has malicious intention. Maybe due to the patterns used to express the ideas have some vagueness or go
beyond the purpose. I will be more careful when choosing my words now and on. This may cost me to spend a good time but sure it is worth to try.
Friendly and faithfully
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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Dear fernandraynaud,
First of all I admire your vast knowledge in all aspects of the Oud and everything relating to the Oud. Secondly, I would love to believe in pureness
of your profound embition in interfering almost every post here.
I would like to believe that your aim is to be profoundly objective in regards to your opinions.
I go out my depth when you jump in and say "It sounds like a very nice Turkish oud to me. Hijaz on D ... I wonder in what sense it's Arabic, beside
the tuning."
The topic wasFaruk Turunz reduced price and arabic ouds and danieletarab was asking " I was wondering if anyone of you has ever tried
Faruk Turunz arabic oud (tuned in C), and his reduced price (1000 dollars) ouds. What do you think about?"
It was not if it fits to your favorite "Old Arabian" taste.
Please start a seperate thread to discuss "The Sound of Faruk Türünz Ouds and Its Discrepancy from Old Arabian Sound."
I would appreciate it and try to show the distincness of my ouds' sound from Old Arabian Oud Sound in depth.
With my best regards.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 168
Registered: 2-26-2012
Location: North West England
Member Is Offline
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I believe this thread is going so long due to misunderstandings on all sides and we are all talking different languages. I think Oud freak ahs got the
right end of the stick regarding Mr Turunz's meaning regards arabian ouds.
i would also like to say that my initial reaction to Mr Turunz's original post was wrong. After a short exchange of e-mails and time to get a better
viewpoint and understanding, I believe he has no intention of upsetting and offending his potential customers or anyone else. I also understand his
frustration in trying to explain himself and his ideas regarding Turkish or Arabian Ouds.
I think the fact is that Mr Turunz's ouds are neither Turkish nor Arabian, though they can be, due to whichever way you play. I have said it before
that I believe that the actual oud is of little importance. If we also go back to what Jack and Edward Powell said about proportions and brace sizings
we will understand the limited differences. I will say again, from experience, that a Turkish built Oud can sound like an arab is playing it and an
arabian built Oud can sound like a Turk is playing it! Mr Turunz's Oud are equally versatile and on top of this have their very own unique sonorities.
I think the matter of style of playing does have a direct influence from the geography of the area it is born! I believe this is why different music
is born, so I think in relation to plucking techniques Mr Turunz is correct. This is not an offensive comment, or should I say it is no more offensive
than I say British folk music sounds like "diddle diddle fiddley dee" because of the sound of rain, as again I find this to be true. The sound of the
folk instruments of the world reflects the lives the people live and the geography affects your life in a big way.
I think I wrote everything I wanted and hopefully don't get into any arguments. 
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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| Quote: Originally posted by Khalid_Salé | Question about tuning and how it affected construction:
It is my understanding that until the modern period, the 'Ottoman' oud was tuned to a very low (A)DEADG to play with the Mansur ney (Rast = G), and
that the newer tuning of EABEAD (or C#F#BEAD) was developed more recently to play with the cabaret ensembles that favoured the Bolahenk Ney (Rast =
D).* Wouldn't this have had a major effect on how the oud was constructed in Turkey?
*Hence the confusion over Turkish notation for oudists, since the theorists chose to use the G on the western stave to represent Rast (as per Mansur),
but the preference for the cabaret oud tuning (Bolahenk) became all-pervasive along oudists. |
Dear Mr. Khalid_Salé,
Thank you for your question.
This is a very critical point that your question will give a chance to discuss it elaborately. That is true: "until the modern period, the
'Ottoman' oud was tuned to a very low (A)DEADG to play with the Mansur ney (Rast = G)"
I have repaired many old Turkish ouds and had the chance to see the inner strucure of some. Meanwhile I was busy with developing my "Brace Tuning
Method"
One day when taking the soundboard off of a 1901 Manol oud the braces dropped inside the bowl without my intervention. The glue was rotten and the
braces left the soundboard spontaneously. It would be a good chance for me to test the braces in accordance with my BTM. But before attempting to make
any test I noticed a very interesting feature of them. They did not have any trace of a balde's streak in their sides. Their cross-section was in the
shape of trapezoid. If Manol Usta had glued the braces onto the soundboard before shaping them there would be some traces of an incisory tool. I am
still keeping those braces. I may take photos of them and put here.
But why Manol Usta might have prefered that tiresome and time consuming way. Was not he as clever as his modern counterparts who prepare the brace
welts of which the cross-sections are rectangular?(The contemporary oud makers decide the size of the braces' cross-section and shape after gluing
them on the S.B.) Of course he must have known something related to the specific frequencies of the braces and their effect on the sound of the
oud. He must have realized that the only reliable property of a wooden welt would be its specific frequency. His ouds' fame must not be of no avail.
He was able to modify something on the braces if he had not been happy with an oud he constructed, by knowing their specific frequencies instead of
their dimensions. It is a very common hearsay about him...As if he broke down many ouds he made if he had not liked the sound. This may be a
persuasive and spectacular demonstration...No problem!
Let me turn back to the braces: They were so high compared to the ones prefered by a big majority of the makers of today.
Indeed the first attempts in copying the old masters' instruments were failed. Makers started to make the soundboards too thin. By the way let me
state that the average thickness of that Manol soundboard was 1.7mm.
Today some prefer to make it less than 1.5mm... Sometimes ago a very well knownoud player came and wanted me to make the soundboard of his ordered oud
just 1.3mm thick.
Nevertheless, I tried to compansate it by heavy braces; the sound of it did not make me happy but he was/is extremely satisfied with its sound.
As for the pitch shift you are emphasizing: Please allow me to quote from Wikipedia:
A440 is the musical note A above middle C, which has a frequency of 440 Hz and serves as a general tuning standard for musical pitch. Prior to the
standardization on 440 Hz, many countries and organizations followed the Austrian government's 1885 recommendation of 435 Hz. The American music
industry reached an informal standard of 440 Hz in 1926, and some began using it in instrument manufacturing. In 1936 the American Standards
Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz.[1] This standard was taken up by the International Organization for
Standardization in 1955 (reaffirmed by them in 1975) as ISO 16.[2] Although not universally accepted, since then it has served as the audio frequency
reference for the calibration of acoustic equipment and the tuning of pianos, violins, and other musical instruments. A440 is widely used as concert
pitch in United Kingdom[3] and the United States. In continental Europe the frequency of the A is commonly 442 Hz and 443 Hz.[4][5] In the period
instrument movement, a consensus has arisen around a modern baroque pitch of 415 Hz, baroque for some special church music (Chorton pitch) at 466 Hz
and classical pitch at 430 Hz[6]. The A above middle C is sometimes referred to as Concert A. (The C above Concert A is called Concert C.)
We can extrapolate that none of the ouds of Manol Usta had been designed neither for today's risen pitch nore those days' Bolahenk. They were all
designed to sound best if they were tuned in Mansur scale.
None of the old masters were eager to share their know-how with the others. Late Hadi Usta told me in a persuasive tone when I visited him in his
workshop one day in 1977: "Manol summoned his qualified workers when he was in the death bed and showed them the places of the braces" and he
continued "...this is a matter of calculation" I did not understand what kind of "calculation" it was, at that time. It was long before I attempted to
make ouds.
They have all passed away without teaching their "secrets" thoroughly.
When such a state of a dissociation period separates the present pratice from the precedent accumulation of traditional practices a new era opens with
troubles. With the effect of new products' features the general criteria is adapted to the new taste or tastelessness. What has happened in my
country can be summarized within these lines!
I have long given up making ouds sounding Old Turkish (like Manol's ouds) to be able to compete the new taste(!) On the upshot I had to make a living!
If someone comes and wants me to construct an "Old Sounded Oud" I have a ready recipe for making it
That oud's sound must contain (predominantly) the 4th, 5th and 6th overtones whilst today second and third overtones are dominant together with the
fundamentals due to very thin S.B. and very shallow braces.
Once, when Yurdal Tokcan was in a recording studio the tonmeister was astonished with the sound of the oud. At that time Yurdal was playing one of my
Old Turkish sounded ouds. (Of course I had adapted the phylosophy of old masters to the new high pitch)
Yurdal recounted the tonmeister's comment. He said to Yurdal "What a traditional sound this is! I swear after the alumnis of the instrument
construction branches of the conservatories had dominated the market, the authentic oud sound disappeared.
That was a true but very sad determination. Thanks to the obstacles I had to deal with I could work up my theory and Brace Tuning Method into a very
manageable state as a "General Purpose"one.
I am well avare that the tonality of an oud is related to some other applications other than bracing: 1- The shape and the size, 2- Wood's acoustical
properties, 3- The string length and the range of the action, 4- The sound holes and their placement and size and shape, 5- Some extra elements to
suppress some undesired overtones, 6- Thinning some parts of the S.B. to catch the desired specifications of the sound like the attack,
discontinuation of the played note, depth of the sound, short winded echo, and so forth...
I don't see myself competent on criticizing the "some how official" decision for accepting an alternative notation system.
With mt deepest respects
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