| Pages:
1
2
3 |
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
The better AKs are probably French Polished.
|
|
|
Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
|
|
Hehe.. It is just that I missed you guys :-)
1- I no longer sure that it was True oil that I used. I used something we call Danish Oil. Maybe it was Tung oil?
2- The rosewood finger board I use it on was fine (the oud was new). It was Tony here who convinced me of trying it over 2 years ago :-)
And I am happy with result. In the sense that it is been 2 years, and still I cannot see traces from the strings!!
While shellac goes after a couple of days.
But it was boaring waiting for it to dry (6 coats), and it smeld bad many weeks. So I never got the "energy" to use it again :-)
3- Tony, The number 212, refures mainly to 3 things only:
First: the body is dark walnut.
second: It has 30 ribs.
Thurd: Eboney tuninig pegs
Number 14 refurs to:
First: the body is dark walnut
Second: It body is all dark walnut (no birch between the ribs!)
Thurd: Eboney tuning pegs.
p.s. 211 is the same, but with 15 ribs.
And that is it. It says nothing about fingerbord, fixed or floating bridge, the pick gard and so on...
4- But you can always tell Mr. Sukar what you want.
You can ask for eboney fingerboard, you can ask for different sizes, different combinations.
And you 'll always get what you order.
(but mind the language misunderstanding!! :-))
He is REALLY a wonderfull and trust worthy person to deal with.
For eksemple, he always sends me the Ouds BEFORE I pay!!
If the oud is OK, I pay him.
If not, I send it back and he tries again!! Without any "buts" and excuses.
That is HIS policy. At least that is how he delt with ME (*my own experience!).
Here is a litle sample of ebonye finger bord :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eA3GhZO3k
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Danish oil is just linseed oil mixed with an oil varnish - used as a hand rubbed finish on wood. Linseed oil takes a lifetime to dry (if it ever does)
so the varnish speeds up the drying time to a few hours. Tung oil is also used in place of linseed oil for these formulations. TruOil is just another
variation of the same thing.
A good research paper investigating various mixes of oil/varnish finishes was published in the Fine Woodworking magazine some years ago (1970's ?)
"Oil/Varnish Finishes - experiment to find the right proportions" by Don Newell.
See here for more info
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12156
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
For information - I found that test sample of walnut finished with several coats of home-brew 'TruOil' varnish (see the link in the previous post) so
did an indent hardness test on the varnished and unvarnished areas of the sample.
The attached magnified images of the indentations show that the hardness is not affected by the varnish layers (according to the 'Downing' hardness
tester values, where relative hardness is represented by the square of the indent diameter. The larger the number the softer the material. See http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=13647)
Not a surprising result perhaps with this 'macro' hardness test where the depth of the indent is half the measured diameter of the indent (i.e. 1.5
mm) - much more than the thickness of the varnish coat. The varnish layer is here - unable to provide additional structural strength to the wood -
just gives way under the load as the supporting wood cells collapse.
[file]25416[/file]
[file]25418[/file]
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
@john, As you note, the coating is thin, and the punch is smashing through. What I've seen happen on coated oud and bass fingerboards is that the
strings don't crush the substrate. After a while they start to wear the coating, so it's no longer perfectly smooth if you look very closely under the
right light, and it's time to wipe on some more, which merges with the old and you're back to a level surface. The refresh sets much much faster, it's
a trivial operation, almost like applying a polish to the bowl when changing the strings. Japan Dryer can be added to speed up setting.
I think that with huge steel round-wound bass strings with sharp windings under enormous tension, you might start crushing the wood, but I never dare
use such strings.
@Luttgutt like I said, you're the Sukar connection. Lovely playing, but I can't see the fingerboard. I still wish i knew what my 212 and 14
fingerboards are made of.
[file]25426[/file] This is from the model 14. Looks like my Shehata's ebony fingerboard.
The question of course on your coated fingerboard that shows no wear, is how much others that you have (of similar wood) do show wear.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Determination of wood hardness by 'macro' indentation methods (such as Janka) can only apply to testing materials of relatively uniform hardness
throughout - be they natural or chemically fully impregnated - not thin coated materials (as demonstrated by the previously posted images).
I am primarily interested at the moment in testing materials that may prove to be hard enough for fingerboards (treated or untreated) without the need
for any maintained coatings so the macro indentation method should be good enough for any 'before' and 'after' comparisons.
The indentation methods stress the materials under test beyond their elastic limit (plastic yield) in one test loading. The string pressure on a
fingerboard surface may be quite high as there is line contact with the underside of the round section string so that a relatively low force on a
string from the fingers may generate quite a high localised pressure on the fingerboard surface (pressure = force per unit area). This repeated
application of high pressure over time may cause softer materials to permanently yield whereas harder materials might offer sufficient resistance to
prevent yielding.
When a relatively soft coating (e.g. varnish) is applied over a hard fingerboard material the surface coating, if thick enough, will likely
permanently yield under string pressure over time and so require regular repair - but surely nothing is gained in coating a fingerboard if the
uncoated fingerboard material is hard enough to resist yielding in the first place?
What might be interesting to try would be a thin coating of 'hard' rubber over a soft fingerboard material that would deform elastically under string
pressure (and then recover) without causing the underlying fingerboard material to yield.
I have had a close look, under magnification and incident light, at the fingerboard of my old Egyptian oud for signs of string indentation marks and
could only find two places with the very faint 'tell tale' marks left by wound strings and one deeper gouge close to the nut at the first position,
sixth course (left unrepaired so presumably never a problem requiring repair or correction). The age of the oud is unknown but is probably close to a
century old. The instrument shows all the signs of hard wear and abuse so has certainly been well used in its time. The fingerboard is mahogany -
quite soft for a fingerboard material and has not been coated but quite uniformly darkened by finger staining. It must be remembered that this oud has
never been strung with modern nylon strings but instead with softer gut trebles and copper wound on silk basses at relatively lower string tensions
than are possible with modern nylon.
This begs a question. What is the string wear (if any) observed on the oldest surviving ouds from the late 19th/early 20th C - particularly those with
fancy decoratively inlaid fingerboards?
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
The fingerboard field is heating up. I was looking at a Chinese guitar that until recently was made with a rosewood fingerboard. It now looks like
stained nondescript wood. We're approaching the day when rosewood, let alone ebony, is unheard of on instruments.
Fender is using "ebonol". Gibson, after two federal raids over hardwoods, is moving squarely into plastic woods under fancy names on even their best
guitars.
John, in an effort to instill reason and discipline, please don't reason away realities. You keep implying fingerboard wear is not a problem. Most oud
owners have, or have seen, ouds with grooved fingerboards, especially at Rast on the 4th course. And it's far more troublesome than the largely
cosmetic damage on a guitar. It only takes a slight grooving to buzz. Older ouds may have had the fingerboards repeatedly lightly re-leveled. It may
not even show.
Most of us have no control over the exact materials used. Testing and finding an optimal retro-treating for softer fingerboards would be a good deed.
You're in a ideal position to help.
It could be that the "hard rubber" model you describe is exactly how some coatings work. Or the reverse. What is the effect of the epoxies and thick
superglue layer bass players use? What are cello people doing?
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
So lets hear about the 'realities' of fingerboard wear from others apart from yourself fernandraynaud as you surely do not speak with authority for
the the majority of oud players or luthiers.
I am not trying to 'reason away' or 'imply' anything - just seeking unbiased information in order to try to figure out if there really is a problem
and - if there is - what the solution might be.
So please give us all a break - kindly practice what you preach about "instilling reason and discipline" into these discussions.
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
No, no, I'm not for reason and discipline. F'get 'bout it.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
