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rootsguitar
Oud Junkie
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New Micro Tones?
In that composition suggests an interplay of musical tones to tell a story ( ideally with unusual ornaments and the element of the unexpected) I must
share that using a flute like the bow of a cello ( or as some call it a " slide") on strings is a new region to be explored by instruments like the
Oud.
Technique wise there are many variations in dampening strings " behind the slide" and some interesting ways to tune courses to allow slide overtones
to subtly influence a finished piece.
Bamboo is an excellent material from which to make a slide and since flutes have been made from bamboo for centuries perhaps this way to access micro
tones on an oud has been used in the distant past.
---best regards
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Bamboo slide Blues?
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rootsguitar
Oud Junkie
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Hey Edward,
Since lute like instruments are so ancient it may be that someone pressed a piece of ivory or bone against gut-strings at some point in the past.
Maybe even children playing with something like a broken bamboo flute.
When a player moves between notes(glissandi) on a fretless neck (like an oud/sarod) they create distinct ornaments.
The same arm motion can be made using a slide and the color of the sound becomes new.
To have the note ring longer, the slide hand must move in a quickened flourish...
not unlike the way a bowed instrument is played when a note is being sustained.
While the blues does deserve mention with this technique, other traditions have used its colors in their own traditions, like in the music of Hawaii,
and notably in Indian Ragas.
To team up with a composer and have this micro-tone element adapted to the Oud...
could be something really interesting...especially by a dedicated oudist willing to begin to figure out how to make reliable sounds with a slide
.
---best
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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yes you are right, there is blues, ragas, and hawaii all using slide - but there are no maqam instruments using slide ---- this could be a great new
innovation.
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catty
Oud Addict
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Slide playing on a fretless instrument seems redundant to me
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rootsguitar
Oud Junkie
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Slide playing is not just a different " tone color"---
it connects notes in a different way than pressing fingers. Is it correct to say "sahb"---when describing this?
It's tricky to get past the initial learning phases. Especially when one is used to playing great sounds with the way they learned.
Technique isn't the heart of it though---in that way I agree with catty.
I missed some essential background about the oud tradition...I am grateful for Edward's refrence to maqam instruments. It led me to this:
http://www.maqamworld.com/
There is a folk saying : "Can't see the forest because of the trees"
I never heard the word maqam before..I'm only a short time left with internet access before I return home.
Does anyone have experience with that site??
Thanks
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Edward Powell
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This site is a pretty good intro to maqam from an Arabic point of view. Personally I find the Turkish theory easier to understand and going into more
depth. Then once you've grasped the Turkish approach you can apply this to Arabic style playing and it will sound much more authentic than if you only
tried to learn from Arabs. The reason is that Arabs have simplified their theory leaving out so many important things the I guess they assume the
player will somehow pick up in some other way.
The Turkish way of describing the microtones from the point of view of a 9 coma wholetone makes it all easy to understand - however this also is an
inaccurate theory which must later be compensated for.
...but yes, if you want to play middle-eastern music, the very heart of the matter is "maqam/makam"... Just like in Indian music you will learn
about "ragas", or if you play jazz you will learn about chords, and western harmony.
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abc123xyz
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by rootsguitar  | In that composition suggests an interplay of musical tones to tell a story ( ideally with unusual ornaments and the element of the unexpected) I must
share that using a flute like the bow of a cello ( or as some call it a " slide") on strings is a new region to be explored by instruments like the
Oud.
Technique wise there are many variations in dampening strings " behind the slide" and some interesting ways to tune courses to allow slide overtones
to subtly influence a finished piece.
Bamboo is an excellent material from which to make a slide and since flutes have been made from bamboo for centuries perhaps this way to access micro
tones on an oud has been used in the distant past.
---best regards
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Not to discourage your applying a slide to the oud or anything, because no doubt a wider range of timbres could be got that way, but glissando is
already possible on the oud by merely stopping the string with the fingernail, rather than the pad, and then sliding up or down the fingerboard as
required.
I wonder if a slide isn't best suited to fretted instruments like the guitar, where it serves to "thwart" the frets, or like the vicitrā
bīṇā, whose strings are so high off the neck that they can't be pressed down against it.
I think the absence of frets on the oud and the low action of the strings makes it more convenient to just use our fingernail rather than wear a
slide.
David
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catty
Oud Addict
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Well that was my thinking as well-
Someone who's able should ask David Lindley--someone who's played it all, and eventually evolved primarily on slide--whether he's ever been compelled
to try to put slide to oud (to me, it seems approximately equivalent to using a slide on a violin, or any other fretless instrument..)
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Edward Powell
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Some (most) instruments seem particularly suited to particular styles. There is no wonder about this because instruments generally evolve in a
partiular style of music.
Oud to my ears just doens't fit with blues or bebop, sitar you can't really do much on it except raga music, guitar and piano are amazing for anything
tempered - but doesn't work for untempered modal music.... violin however seems to practically fit everywhere. . .
There must be a logical reason why slide is not used in maqam music.
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rootsguitar
Oud Junkie
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I welcome the input and all of those details are worth considering...
for as versatile as guitar is, there does seem to be a divide between nylon string ( classical guitar ) and the steel strings too.
Not any slide technique applied to the former ( not that I’ve heard anyway)-- bamboo does work to get the slide tones on nylon style strings
though.
Also Just to clarify I had read the word maqam here in the last few weeks but thought that it was something that applied only to the oud.
It opened my eyes when Edward’s post said maqam instruments.
I have much to learn.
Perhaps a slide might fit in with an ensemble playing maqam music with a type of specialized guitar in the mix ( like in ragas).
A composer would also need to have a specific grasp of slide technique if they chose to organize such a music to fully use its colors.
The slide has many surpising uses and is able to “ hover in vibrato” in a way that a finger never could,
though there are other effects that may sound similar when a skilled player creates sounds on a fretless neck.
As far as an oud goes...
The actual instrument would need to be set up for a slide too..
( a project I’m working is setting up a fretless lute for slide...this is explained a little more at http://www.rootsguitar.com/ ).
still in process, so keep that in mind if you are interested enough to check that link...my goal is to gain momentum with this project as the Northern
winter turns to spring.
It may take many more twists and turns by then.
------ T.Robb
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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I think that if you set up an oud for slide, then it will not sound good with fingers because action needs to be ultra low to sound good with
fingers.
Another problem with slide with oud is the very short neck... doesn't give much scope for slide...
...however if you can find a way - you will definitely be the first!
One thing great about someone coming in fresh to a subject is that you will be open to ideas that no one else would dream of --- and perhaps stumble
upon something cool.
A slide would definitely work with maqam music. Nobody has done it as far as I know.
The sad thing is that maqam is not hip and fashionable these days and is therefore dying. Even many top oud players these days hardly bother too much
with maqam - and the main thrust of their creativity is to attempt to fuse with Western music - the result is a certain amount of "flattening" of the
microtonal system as opposed to actually expanding and developing it. [true, Western music is hence becoming more rich - but Oriental music is
becoming more poor.... a trend noticeable not only in culture - but also economics IMO]
I myself have chosen the "career suicide" route of actually opting to attempt at maqam development... more specifically I attempt to enrich the maqam
system by interjecting elements of raga (or vise versa, however you want to see it).
People don't really understand this... but I don't care. On my death bed what will be important for me is not how many people bought my music - but
rather if I felt I made a valuable contribution or not.
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catty
Oud Addict
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The "fusion" aesthetic has afforded tremendously fertile ground for creativity--inevitably, we find it being often overdone. Personally (as a kid
growing up in Detroit), listening to groups like Oregon and shakti back in the 70s probably contributed more to inspiring my imagination and "curing"
my ear for exoticism--than anything. My current interests, however, are "traditional" forms--Bach, flamenco, maqam, Scottish harp...Jelly Roll
Morton
Fwiw Edward, your work is greatly inspiring
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Thanks so much Catty.
I would say that my tastes are the same as yours... and a very similar process (and timeline) also. After much delving in to fusion, finally I find
myself craving more what the original thing was (original at least before the 'globalization').
I think that pretty soon the world will wake up to what it foolishly let go of, all for the luxury of paper plates and throw-away cutlery...
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DoggerelPundit
Oud Junkie
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Hi rg,
Setting the oud aside for a moment, slide technique applied to Eastern music is an interesting idea. A slide device could let you play any pitch you
wanted on your lute, guitar, or even a dobro. You could play in the maqam system while providing a different tone and timbre entirely. The Greek
bouzoukee (before it was "mandolinized") was for a time rampant in Irish music. Why not return the favor?
To a certain extent the technique is already there. For example, historical estimates place the Kanun as far back as the ninth century, yet the mandal
system—levers to change its string pitch—are an early 20th century innovation. Kanun players I know tell me that, prior to the mandal system,
pitch changes, vibrato, and slurs on the open strings were done bottleslide-like with fingernails and/or using the metal pick rings. Ah ha!
Further, the Cretan Lyra, Gaidulka, and certain of the Kemence are noted using the fingernails instead of the pads.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvNEtHaHkWk
As for Powell's salient point about the neck note compression on the oud, this shot of a Turkish tanbur might help.
http://cdn101.iofferphoto.com/img3/item/513/265/069/asOuturkish-str...
This animal sports a 4 octave neck. See how relatively close the frets are even in the lower range? In the upper range—about where the oud neck
is—the koma note position differences are very slight and would need a most exacting touch with the slide. Not that it can't be done.
If I were venturing into this territory, I would get hold of a large Arabic oud with horribly high action (what most of us here strive to avoid!).
Then, I would add a slight riser to the bridge under the first three strings, curved from the first string like a violin bridge. With a nylon third
string instead of wound metal, I think this would enable clean melody notes to be played with a slide, while accenting with strings 4,5, and 6.
My 2 cents,
-Stephen
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catty
Oud Addict
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Or check out JP Jones's "steel/slide bass" rig
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catty
Oud Addict
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| Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell |
I think that pretty soon the world will wake up to what it foolishly let go of, all for the luxury of paper plates and throw-away cutlery...
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That's pretty optimistic Edward (good on you!)--you are an inspiration. I'm more gnostic about it all
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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:-)
...well maybe not the WHOLE world... but as long as there are a few of us left holding the flame........ :-)
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rootsguitar
Oud Junkie
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I enjoy hearing that sense of ethos too --it seems to play an important role in keeping one’s curiosity sustainable.
I’m so glad for these ideas! the timing is great as I have just been packing up to make a move and will be in a wifi shadow for some weeks.
All of you have sent me on a great flurry of reading ( and preparing some files to read later).
Am glad for the interaction here...it’s a great benefit of this forum
& helps me I realize I when I’m missing something.
For example:
I thought I understood what was meant by
the nails stopping the string
it took seeing that clip to get it, and even for the first bit of that I didn’t get what was happening.
Really fantastic----what a range of sounds.
Also some important contemporary musicians are easy to miss where I live. I will keep those names on my radar.
I feel lucky to have the time to follow up on these specific thoughts about instrument set up too.
As my time is limited right now I will again say Thanks for helping my momentum
and I look forward to checking back here closer to the spring...
---Best of Luck T. Robb
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Wow you are very very lucky! My sincere advice is to remain in the WIFI SHADOW as long as you possibly can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vb9R0x_0NQ
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morereverb
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
Registered: 12-23-2010
Location: Concord Mass, usa
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Hi Folks..........
this is my first post here, and in response to the above comments about maqaamat and Dobro....... at the risk of shameless self promotion, here is a
track
I recorded a few years ago on National steel guitar, played lap style/Hawaiian, which is in Maqaam Hijaz....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B16jm20u6A
lloyd Thayer,
Concord Ma, usa
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Hey Lloyd... great to see you here!
- - hey the youtube track is set to "private". . . if you can change that I'm sure we'd all love to hear the track!
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morereverb
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
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ok, i 'think' i just did.........try again.....sorry.......luddite.....
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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dobro and slide work great! ...sounds amazing! ---also a bit like Raga Basant Mukhari.
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morereverb
Oud Lover
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thanks
thanks for your kind words Edward, really appreciate them....
I should add in terms of full disclosure that I am the proud
owner of one of Edward's instruments, Ragmakamtar #9
and it is a really really beautiful instrument.....
I havent had a chance to spend much time with it, but there are clips of Edward playing it on youtube and elsewhere in this forum
which will give you an idea of how beautiful it sounds....
grateful.
thanks
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