JosephR
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How can I get an oud-driven synthesizer?
I've talked to several vendors of electric ouds such as the Godin multioud, etc. But they just shrug, and none of them apparently know how to obtain
an oud-driven synth. First of all: I KNOW it can be done, and that the oud-synthesizer exists, because I've seen it in concert in Paris. Smadj and
Mehdi Haddab ("Duoud") were pioneers in this instrument. With the flick of a switch (and a connection with a Mac laptop) I've seen Smadj turn his oud
into an electric guitar; a violin; a darabukka; a piano; and even a string quartet. I asked him how he did it afterwards, but he was in a hurry, and
could only tell me that it all starts with an electric or electroacoustic oud. The electroacoustic oud he happened to be playing that night was made
in Turkey, and was wonderful, because it had a very good traditional acoustic sound, as well as the capacity to drive synthesizer software. But he
and Mehdi also use purely elecric ouds.
I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me what steps to take, and who to contact, to obtain an oud configuration (electric or electroacoustic or
whatever) that can do what this guy is apparently doing with a Najarian electric oud (?) on the following youtube link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoO8qnfqWoY
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Greg
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Welcome to the forums Joseph.
As they already make an electric oud and they also make synth access guitars with nylon strings, Godin would certainly know how to build an oud with
synth access. But they make production instruments and probably would not be interested in making one-off instruments to order.
Godin's synth access guitars use RMC Pickups, with a separate under saddle pickup for each string. The outputs of these are fed through a multi-pin
connector to a guitar synth (such as the Roland series of synths).
The guy in the youtube clip was using an Electro-Harmonix Ravish Sitar pedal. So if that's the only sound you want, get an electric oud and one of
these pedals and you are done.
But if you want an oud to sound like a violin, a string quartet, an organ or any of the other sounds from the Roland Sound Canvas, I would suggest you
add RMC pickups to an electric oud, fit the appropriate RMC preamp and get yourself a Roland (or similar) guitar synth.
To my knowledge, the only alternative to the RMC pickups would be to fit steel strings and use a Roland GK-3 pickup.
This clip compares the GK-3 (metal strings) with the RMC under saddle pickups of the SA series of Godins (which work with non metalic strings). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY81lRxixvU
I do not agree with the findings of this youtube comparison. I have played many gigs with my Godin ACS SA guitar and even more with my Tele equipped
with a GK-3 pickup. In my opinion, the Godin (RMC Pickups) tracks better on the low notes.
I hope this helps.
Greg
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Running the whole audio signal from a pickup into a distortion type pedal can give some interesting sounds. But as Greg points out, that's not true
synthesis, where you can get clean sounds like you mention. For that you need to convert the sound to digital commands, like the MIDI protocol.
But there are details. We've had various types of MIDI guitars over the years. Some convert sound waves, like the pickups Greg is mentioning, some
pick up position from sensors on or under the fingerboard, and some detect the fingered string length by techniques like bouncing a pulse down the
string. I happen to have a Yamaha G10, that uses the latter, one of the more effective traditional methods. The current crop of Roland sound pitch
converters is getting better and better at a difficult task.
The synths/sound generators in use are equal tempered. Although string bends can be detected and applied to the note, internally it's in the form of a
pitch-bend correction applied to an equal tempered note. Intermediate pitches, like on an oud or violin, have to be done that way. It's doable, but
then each string has to be handled separately, which is why a separate sensor is placed under each course, and then the synth has to use 6 different
"channels" to allow offsetting pitch differently on each string/course.
It's hard enough getting a conventional fretted guitar to "track" well, it's never quite as good as we'd like. I'm always fighting spurious notes,
missed notes, incorrectly detected bends and an indirect feel that to me detracts from concentrating on the music. That's why you just don't see many
guitarists using these. With the potential, you'd think that everyone would use them all the time, wouldn't you? You could argue that a fretless
instrument is even trickier to use for this. Once you get all the kinks worked out, you might use it for a special piece, but IMHO you would never use
the oud that way for an entire performance, I think you'd go mad.
Another detail on the systems that use the audio signal. The lower the pitch of the note, the more time must elapse before the software can extract
pitch accurately, as the attack portion is full of unpitched transients, and then at least one cycle must elapse. On a guitar the high strings work
much better. The bass strings start getting sluggish in response. The oud is tuned lower, and I'd expect more noticeable lag. Lag gets in the way of
feeling the music and the instrument.
In a nutshell, most anything is doable, but some things give better results. I don't see anyone offering a ready-made oud solution. Greg is right,
you'll have to assemble one. Before you do, if you can play guitar, you should try to find such a "guitar synth" somewhere and try playing it to get a
sense of how well you like it. I would guess that using an oud that way is likely worth the hassle only for people who really can't play a keyboard or
a guitar.
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SamirCanada
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There is this guy playing in lebanese restaurants in montreal who uses a guitar to play "arabic sythethiser" I would be really intersted in how this
could be done on oud to.
Perhaps building a special electric oud with the right pickup is something I would consider.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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JosephR
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Gregg, many thanks for your information and suggestions. [And M'Oudy, thanks also for your reflections and warnings. But I once played a Roland guitar
synth and I don't think it'll be that hard to avoid the glitches you mention with an oud synth. Of course I'll have to tailor the music to the
limitations of the instrument, but that's something we often have to do anyway.]
Gregg, I think I already have an RMC pickup in my acoustic oud ---it was installed years ago by Viken Najarian. But I'm not sure about that --- I'll
have to ask him. I'm traveling now without my instrument (I live in Paris), and plan to follow up on your leads when I return. Again, thanks for your
help and all the best,
Joseph
http://www.naturalchant.com
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Salut, Joseph,
From the way you asked, I didn't guess you were experienced with this sort of thing, I wrongly assumed you were starting out. Apologies.
But I just found the craziest thing. Software for guitar that converts to polyphonic MIDI, taking the audio from a normal pickup (!!) and does
it better than any such thing I've tried before. In fact, it seems to maybe work better than a Roland dedicated pickup system. People have been trying
to do this in vain for 30 years, and this guy has done it!
I just downloaded the beta trial version for 64 bit Windows a couple of hours ago, and am trying it with a guitar as a VST with Nuendo. It's certainly
usable within the problems and limits we are familiar with. But my impression so far is good. I'm getting some bends to work within chords! I'll try
with an oud in the studio next.
Here's where you can get it
http://www.jamorigin.com/midi-guitar/
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JosephR
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Salut Fernand --- vous êtes français ?
Thanks for the tip. Wow, that's an impressive claim. Maybe I'll revive my guitar skills just to use it! I went to the site, and sent them a mail
asking if it might work with an oud.
Please do keep us posted on how it works in general, and especially how it works with your oud.
amicalement,
Joseph
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Avec un pseudo pareil? It does not track below E. I requested that he extend it down to C, you should push him too. The free trial beta keeps
disabling itself every minute in VST mode. It's so irritating I stopped testing. This is beta software, yet works surprisingly well. I may try it with
an active pickup oud later, the piezo-only signal was too low level, but I could tell it can work.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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I can say that using it with the generic ASIO4ALL driver to get the guitar audio into the PC, the total lag is distracting. Interestingly, more of
that comes from the audio driver than the pitch detection. The usual artifacts are there, but for a software-only solution it's quite impressive. It
reads and triggers chords, it handles bends well, and if you pluck a note already bent say 50 cents, it produces a note bent a quarter tone. I was
able to get a plausible Rast maqam out of it, leaving out the bam string, as it does not track below bass E. Still, to me, the aggregate feel was the
customary irritation that sends me back to leaving to keyboards what is best done on keyboards. I will try it later in the studio with a better audio
card/driver, and a faster CPU; that should help with the lag.
If you click on the "Unlimited Test Piano" button in the upper right hand TRIAL region, it does stop disabling itself every minute. The iPad version
is $19 but he admits it's quite laggy. But if in a marketplace of millions of guitarists he expects to charge $99 or more for the final PC/Mac
version, rather than sell millions of copies at say $5-10, he is foolishly cutting his own throat. If it's perceived as overpriced, what will happen
is that his software will be cracked, as has happened in many other such cases, more people will use it gratis than will pay $99, he will get
practically nothing, and that will unfortunately be the end of that.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Ok, I tried it with my Shehata, which has an undersaddle pickup and a pre-amp, on a powerful DAW. The lag was still a bit annoying, but it's usable.
It works better on a guitar.
No question that someone who really wants to, can trigger synthesizer sounds through MIDIguitar from an oud using a normal pickup. If the author would
just extend the range down to C, it would open more possibilities.
One of the unexpected problems comes from the closeness of the courses on the oud neck, so that some sound is easily produced on adjacent courses,
which in normal playing is part of the character, but triggers unwanted notes in this case. One would have to play extremely cleanly. Some
pre-processing of the signal could help.
The bend is global at this time, so that a note that is held followed by a half-flat, will take the held note half-flat too. In monophonic mode, only
one note plays at a time, so this is not a problem. If bending is turned off entirely it makes it possible to play polyphonically quite equal-tempered
of course.
MIDI Guitar is a very impressive piece of software. On a guitar it's actually amazing. On an oud, it would require more adjustment of playing style,
but it's feasible.
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JosephR
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Salut Fernand -- oui j'aurais dû savoir à cause de ton pseudo --- mais c'est ton vrai nom ? Il me semble qu'il y a un acteur ou chanteur de ce nom,
non ?
Anyway, thanks very much for your review of Midi Guitar. I'll post my own report after I decide to try the demo, which I'm sure I will, after reading
what you said. (I'll also urge the developer to make it capture below C.) But it won't be very soon, because I'm very new to electroacoustic oud, and
I'm going to first try to find an Electro-Harmonix Ravish Sitar pedal. (Thanks for that crucial information, Gregg!) I just got an e-mail reply from
Viken Najarian, who reminded me that he makes his own pickup mikes, and that the one he installed in my oud will work with the Ravish device. I've
been playing oud as part of our small music/theater act now for over 15 years, and I've always played acoustically, relying on the venue to provide
amplification (which is not needed that much in France, where we often play in the marvelous acoustics of ancient churches). I have a lot to learn
about electroacoustic possibilities, and I'm enthusiastic about it. Actually, the crucial thing I'm looking for is not so much synth sounds as a way
of obtaining the quality most lacking in the oud: SUSTAIN. Btw, could anyone recommend an excellent quailty, but very lightweight sound system that
I might use for this? I realize this has little to do with ouds per se, but I've found that many sound systems impoverish the timbre of the oud,
making it sound way too piercing and hi-end for my taste.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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One interesting use of MIDIGuitar is to layer triggered sounds with the acoustic sound of the instrument. The imperfect tracking of a MIDI system
isn't at all offensive in that context. You can certainly get extremely long sustains that way.
Since this is the first setup that only requires the most ordinary of pickups running as a minimum into a laptop, using the free ASIO4ALL driver, and
any kind of sound generator, such as those supplied with the free REAPER DAW, I urge oud players who have some expertise with DAWs to try it, and to
use the contact page to ask the author to extend tracking from guitar low E down to oud low C.
http://www.jamorigin.com/midi-guitar/Windows-Mac/index.html
JosephR, non c'est pas mon vrai nom.
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