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Rambaldi47
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Quote: Originally posted by David.B  |
For now I only tried Hat yā Ayyuha al-Saqi, but nothing matches: different rhythm, different maqam, etc. |
I only have this recording of this muwashshah by The Egyptians Choir
in my collection. While Hilmi's is free-form, much more lax on
the rhythm, and a whole lot more tarab-filled, this one's rather boring.
The Egyptians Choir - Muwashshah "Hat Ya Ayyuha al-Saqi"
Nate.
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David.B
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Thanks for sharing. It's boring as a school day, perfect for learning 
I put the partition attached to see if anyone can read what is written ...
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David.B
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004 – Lammā badā yatathanna
http://www.amar-foundation.org/004-lamma-bada-yatathanna/
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David.B
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I wrote the two first instrumental phrases (the tarannum!?) on the same octave. The rhythm is Yuruk Samai (6/8) -> http://www.musiqame.com/score/84
You can play the score but it's better to reduce the tempo (the man who seems to have an emergency).
I think there's only the kirdan open string which is used on the oud, difficult for me to make it sounds nice ...
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David.B
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Just perfect! Cutting and comparison allow an useful analysis before the whole listening. The photos also allow us to understand what we hear: Take a
look at the headgear ...
I'm not sure, but it seems to me that Mustafa Said is talking, what do you think?
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Rambaldi47
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| Quote: Originally posted by David.B |
Just perfect! Cutting and comparison allow an useful analysis before the whole listening. The photos also allow us to understand what we hear: Take a
look at the headgear ...
I'm not sure, but it seems to me that Mustafa Said is talking, what do you think? |
I'm not familiar with Mustafa Said's voice, so I would take your
word for it. 
The bayati decent in Muḥyiddīn Ba‘yūn’s interpretation is very unique
and it changes the overall mood of the muwashshah.
The C&C of these two performers and their interpretations is
so beneficial for any prospective student and music aficionados alike.
Nate.
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David.B
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I agree with the bayati decent! This difference has plunged me in an old thread about maqâm Hisâr, I have to correct some mistake ...
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Rambaldi47
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I hope others would join the discussion as well, David.
Is Mustafa Said of the podcast/site the same one as in this video?
If nawa athar and nahawand in general is in the air, let me add these
three interpretations of dawr "Kadni El Hawa" (nawa athar) for comparison.
Sayyid as-Safti - Dawr "Kadni El Hawa"
Yusuf al-Manyalawi - Dawr "Kadni El Hawa"
Abbas al-Bileidy* - Dawr "Kadni El Hawa"
* Not sure about the spelling.
Nate.
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David.B
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I'm listening with half an ear ... Abbas al-Bileidy is already in homophony: do you know the date?
Yes, he is
I didn't know this method to play on harmonic nodes, I'm going to try a little.
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Rambaldi47
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I think 1961 or c.1960. This layali by him and Rast taqsim by the qanun player Fahmi 'Awad of Saleh Abdel Hay's takht (or George Michel's) is from the same televised performance. I especially love the modulation to Saba. 
Nate.
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Rambaldi47
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005 – Sama‘ – Wa Haqqiqa – Part I
http://www.amar-foundation.org/005-sama-wa-haqqiqa-part-i/
Very interesting podcast, dealing with the qasida I mentioned in my
first post with both recordings of it.
I think the part about a half-composed, half-improvised melody
comes into light when we compare the different interpretations of
dawr "Haz il-Hayat" in my earlier post. In Hilmi's and to a lesser extent
Husni's recordings we can very much notice that it is the takht
who follows the mutrib and not the other way around, whereas in
Saleh Abdel Hay's the melody and overall progression,
even of the improvised parts, were definitely pre-organized, with the
qanunist (Fahmi 'Awad?) acting as a precursor.
Nate.
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David.B
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Yep
| Quote: Originally posted by Rambaldi47 | Three interpretations of Dawr "Haz il-Hayat" (Bayati):
Abdel Hay Hilmi - Dawr "Haz il-Hayat"
Dawoud Husni - Dawr "Haz il-Hayat"
Saleh Abdel Hay - Dawr "Haz il-Hayat"
I like the expansion and embellishment of the dawr by Saleh Abdel Hay, his takht, and his choir.
It's actually on youtube. Took me a while to rediscover it without knowing much
Arabic. According to the description (translated to broken English via Google), the composer was Muhamad Othman
and the maqam Husseini. It is listed here, with the Hebrew version, 'Oz
Ou'Mihyat (=Strength & Sustenance) under Bayati. |
It sounds like if it were your own (old) recordings, isn't it?
I can ear the "progress" from Abdel Hay Hilmi (1857-1912) to Saleh Abdel Hay (1896-1962) via Dawoud Husni (1870-1937). Please let me know if I'm wrong
with the dates.
I think I'm not awake enough this morning to listen to the podcast. I clearly recognize Umm Kulthūm but I'm waiting the part 2 in order to have
the whole recordings. I can't clearly identify which examples correspond to the text. OK, it's time to take a black coffee!
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Rambaldi47
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| Quote: Originally posted by David.B |
It sounds like if it were your own (old) recordings, isn't it?
I can ear the "progress" from Abdel Hay Hilmi (1857-1912) to Saleh Abdel Hay (1896-1962) via Dawoud Husni (1870-1937). Please let me know if I'm wrong
with the dates.
I think I'm not awake enough this morning to listen to the podcast. I clearly recognize Umm Kulthūm but I'm waiting the part 2 in order to have
the whole recordings. I can't clearly identify which examples correspond to the text. OK, it's time to take a black coffee!
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I wish I had the original records of that fascinating era!
These low-quality, poorly tape-recorded mp3s are from a
friend of my brother who'd gathered them over the years
and given them to him about 5-6 years ago. There are some
rare gems there to be mined, no doubt.
Nate.
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Rambaldi47
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006 – Sama‘ – Wa Haqqiqa – Part II
http://www.amar-foundation.org/006-sama-wa-haqqiqa-part-ii/
Nate.
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Rambaldi47
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A creative rendition, full of emotion and ornamentation from a contemporary
mutriba of Oum Kalthoum, and one who was considered a better performer in
those early years.
Fathiya Ahmad - Wa-haqqiqa ant almuna wa-talab (Huzam)
Nate.
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David.B
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I took some time to identify musical passages corresponding to the text. I hope this can help those like me who use English to
understand.
The qaṣīda “Wa ḥaqqika ant”
Written by Sheikh ‘Abd Allāh al-Shabrāwī to the baḥr al-mutaqārib
First recorded by Mechian national record company before 1914, performed by Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad
Wa ḥaqqika anta al-muna wa al-ṭalab - Wa anta al-murādu wa anta al-arab
Wa lī fīka yā hājirī ṣabwatun - Taḥayyara fī waṣfihā kullu ṣabb
Abītu usāmiru najm al-samā - Idhā lāḥa lī fī al-dujā aw gharab
Wa u‘riḍu ‘an ‘ādhilī fī hawāka - Idhā namma yā munyatī aw ‘atab
A-mawlāya bī-llāhi rifqan bi-man - Ilayka bi-dhulli al-gharāmi intasab
Wa yā hājirī ba‘da dhāka al-riḍa - Bi-ḥaqqika qul lī li-hādhā sabab
Fa innī ḥasībuka min dhā al-jafā - Wa yā sayyidī anta ahlu al-ḥasab
Mata yā jamīl al-muḥayyā ara - Riḍāka wa yadhhabu hādhā al-ghaḍab
Atāka al-‘adhūlu bi-annī salawtu - Wa ḥaqqika yā sayyidī qad kadhab
Fa innī muḥibbun kamā qad ‘ahidta - Wa lākinna ḥubbaka shay’un ‘ajab
Wa mithluka mā yanbaghī an yaṣudda - Wa yahjura ṣabban lahu qad aḥabb
Ushāhidu fīka al-jamāl al-badī‘a - Fa ya’khudhunī ‘inda dhāka al-ṭarab
Wa yu‘jibunī minka ḥusnu al-qawāmi - Wa līnu al-kalāmi wa farṭu al-adab
Wa ḥasbuka annaka anta al-malīḥu - Al-karīmu al-judūdu al-‘arīqu al-nasab
Amā wa al-ladhī zāna minka al-jabīna - Wa awda‘a fī al-laḥẓi binta al-‘inab
Wa anbata fī al-khaddi rawḍa al-jamāli - Wa lākin saqāhu bi-mā’i al-lahab
La’in judta aw jurta anta al-murādu - Wa mā lī siwāka malīḥun yuḥabb
A comparison between two recordings of Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad:
The first recording was made by Mechian before 1914 –as mentioned earlier– on both sides of a 27cm record, matrix # 393, 1 and 2.
The second recording was made by Baidaphon around 1921 on both sides of a 27cm record # b-02259 and b-082260
This episode will also address two other recordings. One is a performance by Umm Kulthūm Ibrāhīm recorded by Gramophone / His
Master’s Voice record company around 1927 on both sides of a 25cm record, order # 7-13570 and 7-13571, matrix # BF 1165 and BF 1166.
The last one is a performance by Ṣalībā al-Qaṭrīb in a public concert in Lebanon, recorded at least 40 years after the
previous recording was made.
Let us now analyze it!
The qaṣīda “Wa ḥaqqika anta al-muna wa al-ṭalab”:
Besides its marvelous poetry, melody and performance, this qaṣīda offers great material to address two major problems encountered by
whoever listens to the old recordings on 78rpm records. First, the eternal question of the set and the variable: how much improvisation is allowed?
And what are the boundaries ruling the melody when performing a qaṣīda?
This issue has been somewhat resolved in the case of the dawr thanks to the large number of recordings available. The qaṣīda however has
been known to be, in most cases and in the recordings made before WW1, inseparable from the muṭrib’s or the muṭriba’s name; the lyrics
can be sung by different performers, but each performer in his personal style. After WW1, a radical change took place, as we shall witness in the
specific case of the qaṣīda “Wa ḥaqqika anta al-munā wa al-ṭalab”.
Another difficult issue is: to what extent do these recordings reflect the authenticity of the musical patrimony? How do these records relate to the
actual –public or private– concerts? All these recordings –I am referring to the recordings of qaṣa’id ‘ala al-waḥda– were
made on both record sides with a 6 to 9 minutes duration. When the qaṣīda replaces the dawr in the muṭrib’s third and last
waṣla –as confirmed by the old sources such as Kāmil al-Khula’ī ‘s book, all these sources treating life in the musical milieu
and the way the waṣla was performed in concerts–, then it was surely impossible for a muṭrib to perform the qaṣīda during 6
or 9 minutes at the end of the waṣla (the last waṣla). The waṣla should be at least an hour-long including the muwashshaḥ and
the mawwāl …etc. But if the qaṣīda ‘ala al-waḥda (on-the-beat) replaced the dawr in the third waṣla, then the
performance of the qaṣīda should last exactly or approximately as long as the dawr’s; for example, at least twenty or thirty minutes.
Logically, the performance of the qaṣīda ‘ala al-waḥda had to last between 20 and 30 minutes during a concert. But the recordings
available –on 30cm records– do not exceed 6 to 8 minutes, precisely such as Sheikh Yūsuf al-Manyalāwī ‘s recordings. A second
comment: we know that the dawr can be recorded on one side –exceptionally, on two sides –normally, or on three sides or two full records. There
is another exceptional case –we were not able to find– of adwār recorded on five sides. As for qaṣa’id, we were never able to find
any recorded on more than two sides, except for a unique recording of ‘Abd al-Ḥayy Ḥilmī singing the qaṣīda
“Arāka ‘aṣī al-dam’ ”. But that’s another story. The qaṣīda is usually recorded on two sides:
What do these sides represent?
How are these two sides related to the qaṣīda as performed in concerts?
How did the muṭrib or the muṭriba deal with both the lyrics and the melody of the qaṣīda if we assume that there was a melody,
i.e. if we assume that the qaṣīda’s melody was pre-composed or at least prepared?
Were there any repetitions during concerts? Were there any improvisations?
What type of improvisations were they? Were they only ornamental?
Did these improvisations only consist in developing a certain melodic phrase without the addition of totally different phrases to a different
maqām for example?
Were they creative melodic improvisations? Additions? Changes in the melodic path?
We truly know nothing of these concerts. To my opinion, the qaṣīda “Wa ḥaqqika anta al-muna wa al-ṭalab” is a perfect
illustration of all the questions we must ask, but can’t give definite answers to.
Let us get back to this famous –famous, at least, for amateurs– qaṣīda because I think that a significant part of our audience have
already listened to Umm Kulthūm’s famous version of this qaṣīda.
10:30
But even the majority of Umm Kulthūm’s fans know that her version she was famous for was composed by one of her teachers, Sheikh Abū
al-‘Ilā Muḥammad.
11:02
The first known recording of this qaṣīda, unlike what most may think, is intrinsically different from the tune we know and memorize.
Because the first recording –when we check the matrix numbers and the record numbers– was undoubtedly made by Mechian. How do these numbers prove
it is a Mechian record? Because Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad performed in a number of recordings made by Gramophone in 1912 that do
not include this qaṣīda (unless it was a test-recording, in which case it is missing.) Let us disregard this assumption and get back to the
available documentation i.e. Mechian’s recording of the qaṣīda “Wa ḥaqqika anta al-munā wa al-ṭalab” performed by
Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad. Details put aside, I suggest that we listen to the beginning only. We will listen to the full
qaṣīda later on.
12:25
The great surprise for those who listened to the beginning of the qaṣīda and are knowledgeable as to maqāmāt is that this
qaṣīda is to the bayyātī maqām, not to the usual sīkah maqām. This is surprise number one. One may think that
Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad wanted to show off and maybe impress the audience by changing the usual maqām to an improvised
bayyātī melody. This assumption must also be disregarded because the dates confirm that this recording was made before the popular famous
version. Therefore, the first rough copy of this qaṣīda is none but this beautiful and extremely touching bayyātī version that
appears to the listener as dominantly improvised, if not completely.
15:05
Why hasn’t this version of the qaṣīda become famous?
Maybe the cause is technical. The first reason that comes to mind is the bad recording. This record was produced by Mechian. We know that
El-khawāgā (Mister) Mechian –an Armenian born and educated in Egypt– completed by himself in his shop the work of a whole team: he
recorded, printed and marketed his records –tasks performed by a complete team of employees in the other respectable record companies. This does not
mean that El-khawāgā Mechian was not a respectable person. It only means that his records’ artistic value is good, but that they are more
“complicated” on the technical level.
16:54
Approximately six years later, Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad recorded this qaṣīda again with the well-known national record
company Baidaphon: with the same lyrics but this time to the sīkah maqām. You may not agree with me, but when I listen to this recording I
feel that the melody is somewhere midway between a prepared and an improvised melody. It is clear that Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad
had not memorized the qaṣīda. His pure and natural performance seems to be born from his inspiration. It may be a little pre-arranged. Yet,
many variations or melodic phrases –today considered as pre-requisites for those who want to imitate Umm Kulthūm or Sheikh Abū
al-‘Ilā Muḥammad’s performance of this qaṣīda– were purely spontaneous. For example, I suggest we listen to the phrase
“Mata yā gamīl el-muḥayyā ara riḍāk”.
18:55
To me, it is obvious that the repetition here is an ornamental improvisation. I do not think that Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad
composed two different melodies for the same phrase “Mata yā gamīl el-muḥayyā ara riḍāk”. On the contrary, I think
he is improvising and ornamenting the melodic path he started with the first time. When listening carefully to the instrumental accompaniment in this
recording –Sāmī al-Shawwā on the violin and Al-Quḍḍābī on the qānūn both interpreting Sheikh Abū
al-‘Ilā’s phrases and bringing the necessary additions–, it is quite clear that they are following him, not preceding him.
20:22
Strangely, the record –as a medium– changed the course of the History of Arabic Music as well as everything in the music field: in 1927, Umm
Kulthūm –the pupil of Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad– recorded the qaṣīda “Wa ḥaqqika anta al-muna wa
al-ṭalab” with Gramophone. She said exactly what Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad had said in his performance recorded by
Baidaphon. Was Umm Kulthūm imitating Sheikh Abū al-‘Ulā’s performance of this qaṣīda or was she replicating his
Baidaphon record released five years before?
Also, there is a world of difference between Umm Kulthūm and Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad with all due respect to Umm
Kulthūm ‘s marvelous performance. Yet we can feel that she memorized the qaṣīda and sang it without bringing anything personal to
it. She just performed it as a brilliant student parroting an already recorded performance. She permanently fixed what came partially from melody
composition –or quasi melody composition– and partially from improvised spontaneous creativity.
22:40
Muṣṭafa Sa‘īd: Sir, I am sorry I must interrupt your speech. Our episode today is about to end. Before it does, I would like to
draw the attention of our listeners to Al-Qaṣṣabjī –the ‘ūd player with Umm Kulthūm: he did not only memorize Umm
Kulthūm’s version of the qaṣīda but sometimes went ahead of her. This remark contradicts your comment on the musicians accompanying
Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad. Ladies and gentlemen, today’s episode of “Sama‘ ” is over. We will resume our discussion about
the qaṣīda “Wa ḥaqqika anta al-muna wa al-ṭalab” in our next episode.
Let us assume that we have finished talking about the records, even if we haven’t listened to anything.
Anyway, we will at the end of this episode.
Let us give an idea about the public performance of this qaṣīda; I do not imply Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā’s live performances as we
are unable to gather any information about these, but Umm Kulthūm’s performance for example. We do know that Umm Kulthūm used to perform
this qaṣīda in her public concerts. How did she perform it, knowing that she had actually memorized it from Sheikh Abū
al-‘Ilā’s recording? How did she perform it in her public concerts?
We know for sure that Umm Kulthūm performed waṣlāt in the 1920s and that she sang the very successful qaṣīda “Wa
ḥaqqika anta al-munā wa al-ṭalab” in many concerts. She undoubtedly sang it differently, or added a lot to this recording’s
version, especially that the records produced in the 1920s are different from pre-WW1 records. The latter were nothing but a medium attempting to
transmit a reflection –unfortunately a distorted reflection– of the period’s musical reality, whereas 1920s records had become a reference and a
product by itself. Therefore, we notice that this song became the equivalent of a school exercise aiming to show the performer’s ability to perform
maqāmāt, to go higher then lower, and to perform some ornaments. All beginner muṭribāt have sung this qaṣīda in
conservatories. Some have recorded their performance and others haven’t. I have listened to this qaṣīda performed by different
muṭribīn in Arab music festivals. Even when listening to a successful muṭriba with a beautiful voice like the Moroccan ‘Azīza
Jalāl who recorded this qaṣīda, we notice that she sometimes misses the beat. Yet, the result is almost acceptable in terms of melody,
emotion and performance. She does however imitate Umm Kulthūm, but her version is slower. When comparing the pace of Sheikh Abū
al-‘Ilā Muḥammad’s recording to the pace of the performance of a commercial muṭriba who is not specialized in heritage music, we
realize that her singing is clearly much slower. These performances do not give us any idea of the way this qaṣīda should be performed.
Maybe the only reference that can –not Umm Kulthūm but maybe Sayyid al-Ṣaftī’s generation– is this marvelous recording of
Lebanese muṭrib Ṣalībā al-Qaṭrīb singing it for ten minutes, or a little more.
04:45
What do we notice when listening to this recording? First: The numerous similar aspects between Ṣalībā al-Qaṭrīb’s voice
and performance aesthetics and Sayyid al-Ṣaftī’s. I do not know if he was influenced by Sayyid al-Ṣaftī, knowing that the
latter made several visits to Bilād al-Shām (the Levant).
Let us listen to the part starting with “Amā wa al-ladhī” performed by Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad, then by Umm
Kulthūm, and finally by Ṣalībā al-Qaṭrīb.
05:47
To my opinion, the difference is obvious: the original recording of Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad sounds like an inspiration, an
enlightenment; Umm Kulthūm’s version is a successful imitation; Ṣalībā al-Qaṭrīb seems to have been totally imbued
in the melody –maybe Umm Kulthūm was also imbued in the melody, but there is unfortunately no recording to prove it– and then added his own
creativity.
Let us now listen consecutively to four recordings of this qaṣīda. The first is Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad’s recording
to the bayyātī maqām, followed by his version to the sīkah maqām recorded five years later, then Umm Kulthūm’s
imitation of Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad, and last a live concert by Lebanese muṭrib Ṣalībā
al-Qaṭrīb.
10:02 -> Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad’s recording to the bayyātī maqām.
18:25 -> His version to the sīkah maqām recorded five years later.
24:47 -> Umm Kulthūm’s imitation of Sheikh Abū al-‘Ilā Muḥammad,
31:02 -> Live concert by Lebanese muṭrib Ṣalībā al-Qaṭrīb.
Thank you for your listening.
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David.B
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Thank you for this other version
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Rambaldi47
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007 – Muṣṭafa Kāmil Bāshā – Min Al Tarikh
http://www.amar-foundation.org/007-mustafa-kamel/
Nate.
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David.B
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I was just now reading about the collapse of the Ottoman empire to understand the political context. It's clear that this is an essential key to
understanding the Nahda.
Here are some maps that I could find to see geopolitics:
1878 -> http://www.atlas-historique.net/1815-1914/cartes_popups/EmpireOttom...
1908 -> http://www.atlas-historique.net/1815-1914/cartes_popups/EmpireOttom...
1912-1913 -> http://www.atlas-historique.net/1815-1914/cartes_popups/EmpireOttom...
1920 -> http://www.atlas-historique.net/1914-1945/cartes_popups/EmpireOttom...
1925 -> http://www.atlas-historique.net/1914-1945/cartes_popups/EmpireOttom...
Sorry, it's in French, but I haven't found such detailed maps in English.
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David.B
Oud Junkie
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I'm not sure, but I think this part just been added -> http://www.amar-foundation.org/about/
The team does a very good job of digitalization and it's nice to see their workplace.
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Rambaldi47
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Thanks for posting those historical maps, David. I need to learn
more about the surrounding events from which sprouted this great music
of Nahda period.
Do you or any others know where is Abu l3eila Muhammad's recording
of the qasida "Kam Ba3athna"? I remember it was on YouTube a long
time ago. Perhaps it was removed. (Searching in Arabic
ابو العلا محمد كم بعثنا didn't help
either.) It was included in the first podcast.
Here is Oum Kalthoum's version.
Fathiya Ahmad's rendition is once again proving to be so much more expanded
and inspired. Perhaps it was recorded live. One of the podcasts mentioned that
qassaid were often 20min long at the end of the wasla. This one is nearly 14min.
Nate.
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Rambaldi47
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008 – The Qānūn Musical Instrument 1
http://www.amar-foundation.org/008-qanun-1/
Nate.
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David.B
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If I understand well Muḥammad Ibrāhīm, Muḥammad Al-‘Aqqād and ‘Abd al-Ḥamīd al-Quḍḍābī
played qanun without 'arabāt although it had already been invented. It's not explained why: question of time and distance (brand new in the late
19th in Turkey)? Or question of local and instrumentalists tastes?
Muḥammad Al-‘Aqqād with his qanun -> http://ethnomusicologie.revues.org/docannexe/image/464/img-2.png
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Rambaldi47
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Most intriguing, David! I've seen this expanded pic of Yusuf al-Manyalawi but
I've never known his qanun player was Muḥammad Al-‘Aqqād. So in all those
adwar and mawawil, Al-‘Aqqād had changed the pitch without using mandals
-- possibly a mix of personal preference and a pre-1890 qanun -- but stopped
the strings with his left-hand fingers. I wonder what current day or the still-living
previous generation of qanun players prefer. Because I've seen both Abraham
Salman, a living legend and a remnant of the old era, and Eliyahu Avichzer, a
terrific modern-day qanun player with the Israeli Andalusian Orchestra
using both techniques in their playing.
Here's taqsim Hijaz Kar by Muḥammad Al-‘Aqqād, from a record by the Tunisian
qanunist, Hassan Elgharbi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_LYNlt7kj0
Nate.
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Rambaldi47
Oud Junkie
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009 – The Qānūn Musical Instrument 2
http://www.amar-foundation.org/009-qanun-2
Nate.
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