Edward Powell
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Edward Powell SEMINAR video on youtube
Hi Friends...
...thought you might like this vid of a workshop I did last year for a group of guitarists - trying to explain to them the idea o ragas and makams.
The videography is very nice.
http://youtu.be/-xMC5LMGp8g
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slackandsteel
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Good stuff, thanks for sharing it.
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jdowning
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Nicely done Edward. I learn something new almost every day on this forum.
In my general ignorance about Maquam and Raga I was surprised to learn that a whole tone is divided into 9 microtones - seems impossible for the human
ear (or rather mine!) to detect such small differences in pitch.
As there is a lot of information to take in at one sitting is it OK to download the video for convenient private study - or is downloading restricted?
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Edward Powell
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Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  | Nicely done Edward. I learn something new almost every day on this forum.
In my general ignorance about Maquam and Raga I was surprised to learn that a whole tone is divided into 9 microtones - seems impossible for the human
ear (or rather mine!) to detect such small differences in pitch.
As there is a lot of information to take in at one sitting is it OK to download the video for convenient private study - or is downloading restricted?
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Hi John, by all means download and share...
Yes the Turkish system of makam theory is completely based on the division of the octave into 54 equal parts, or 9 "komas" per whole-tone. In fact it
was not until I discovered exactly this way of explaining it that it all began to make sense. Basically the 9 part division of whole tones allows you
to create either large of small semi-tones: small semitone = 4 komas, and large semitone = 5 komas. --- which means you can also create large and
small whole tones: small wholetone = 8, normal wholetone = 9, large wholetone = 10 --- etc etc...
Of course these divisions only have an approximate value in terms of exact music interval, but they give a mental image of where the notes ought to be
placed. Finally musicians actually end up playing something different, but this theory really helps to explain makam logic.
The Arabic system of 4 divisions to the wholetone is just not enough to explain makam, however in some cases is more musically accurate, for example
the SEGAH note in Arabic theory (SIKAH) is a quarter flat, but in Turkish theory it is only 1/9th flat. Of course and partly as an actually result of
this theory, Turks play segah note almost like a natural 3rd, whereas Arabs play is very low as a 1/4 flat. I have heard that before the modernization
took place and the Ottoman empire was in full swing, Arabs and Turks both played segah/sikah note in a much more similar position which was lower than
what Turks currently play and higher than what Arabs currently play...
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majnuunNavid
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Hey Edward,
Great post, I'll check out the seminar. It's very interesting the way Turkish divide up the intervals.
In Persian music we generally say it is divided up 4 times but depending on the dastgah (system) played the quartertone may be sharper or flatter. So
the pitches are not fixed either.
For example, assuming you are playing in the key of D, the E quarter flat in Abu Ata (a dastgah comparable to bayyati) will be a bit flatter than the
E quarter flat in Homayoun (a dastgah comparable to Hijaz) when played in D. In other words, the value of the quarter flat second is different.
Similarly, the third note in the scale of Abu Ata when played in D is F natural, but is actually played ever so slightly flatter than F natural (equal
temperament F natural I am guessing)
I should measure the differences and get back to you about that.
Also I have found that quartertones in Persian music tend to be slightly flatter than Arabic ones. For Dastgah similar to Bayyati, like Shur, Abu Ata,
Afshari, and Dashti, the second note in the scale which is a quarter flat is generally measured at +32 cents above E flat when playing in key of D.
I know this because I was a santour player for many years and had to tune notes precisely with an electronic tuner at first before my ear developed.
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Edward Powell
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Hi Navid... actually a tempered minor 3rd is much much more flat than a Just Intonation minor 3rd.
Interesting your description of the Persian microtone system. Seems similar to t he Turks except the Turks also have values for their "natural notes"
as slightly sharp or slightly flat... they call this plus or minus ONE KOMA.
One anomaly in the Turk system is the "huzzam note" which is actually something like "plus 3 komas" but the theory does not have any special notation
for this, although some progressive composers do use a special notation for this note..... as it really SHOULD be specially notated.
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jdowning
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Hi Edward - the video fades out at the end with you speaking in mid sentence. Is there any information of significance missing as a consequence?
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | Hi Edward - the video fades out at the end with you speaking in mid sentence. Is there any information of significance missing as a consequence?
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yes, you are right, the vid cuts just as I was making an important point... [the camera man stopped filming right there - obvious he is not a
musician ) )
I was explaining that one very clear example of how two ragas can technically have the same scale but when you just change the most important notes
(vadi and sumvadi) the raga changes.
This example is of Ragas KAFI and PILU. They both are based on the KAFI THAAT (dorian mode)... but PILU's important notes are Ga komal and Ni shuddh
(minor 3rd - major 7th), and KAFI's important notes are Re and Pa (2nd - 5th).
If you just play dorian mode with emphasis on m3 and M7 (note that maj7 is NOT in the dorian mode  ) you are playing something like PILU, but be careful not to emphasize the 2nd and 5th otherwise it will
immediately sound like KAFI (and vise versa).
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