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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Here are some more early 17th to 18th C lute and mandolino (descant lute) bridge sections taken from my notes and files - for information.
None quite like those given by Robert Lundberg in 'Historical Lute Construction.
[file]30331[/file] [file]30333[/file] [file]30335[/file] [file]30337[/file] [file]30339[/file] [file]30341[/file]
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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I believe that the oud bridge is not an effective feature to adjust the string action. Every stringed instrument needs to adjust the string height as
the relentless string tension bends the neck or body. Acoustic guitars have a very stiff body construction, so most of the bending occurs in the neck.
The saddle bridge is used to adjust the string height, and a truss rod can be used to straighten the neck. I noticed one saddle bridge in Alfaraby's
pics, and I have made a few like this myself. I don't believe there is a noticeable difference in sound between any of the different configurations,
other than due to the weight of the bridge.
Now the oud has a short neck relative to the string length, so it does not contribute to the action other than it's angle to the soundboard. It rarely
bends unless it is made too thin, or the pegbox joint is too deep, another common fault often overlooked contributing to neck warpage.
The oud has a very weak body structurally, consequently the body will bend over time due to the string tension. Since the bridge has a very limited
height adjustment available (usually no more than 2 mm at the body/neck joint), the only solution to correct a high action is to remove and re-set the
angle at the end of the neck. This is the most common repair in my experience. I believe this is why the old masters used the dowel/butt joint instead
of a dovetail tenon. The butt joint can be loosened with warm water and the neck removed with no loss of neck length. This is not possible with the
dovetail tenon as the joint is too strong to be loosened, so the neck must be sawn off, with a loss of length.
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  | Looks a bit like a 16th C lute bridge?
The wood 'Foofel' was said by forum member Peyman, in an earlier thread, to be boxwood, based on advice from Naser Shirazi. I have two logs of Persian
boxwood that I purchased from an importer in the early 70's. This is a very dense close grained wood, pale yellow in colour that I would never have
thought was a suitable wood for making bridges. An alternative suggestion made on the forum some time ago was that 'Foofel, was 'Betel nut' wood -
which might be equivalent to Walnut - another variety of nut wood? I have never come across Betel nut wood before so cannot comment further.
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I have no idea what you are talking about. this is how a bowl made of foofel looks like
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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jdowning
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That still doesn't tell us what species of wood 'foofel' is!
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jdowning
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......... however I have found two sources on the Internet that say 'foofel' is the wood of the Betel nut Palm tree including this one
http://www.luth.org/web_extras/al092/naini_santur.html
.... scroll down the page to 'wood'
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spyblaster
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It makes sense since google translator confirms it and we have a lot of palm trees in Iran's deserts (center and south).
the only strange thing for me is that why it is sooooo hard to find! I have many customers calling my company desperately looking for it. as I know
the main source for foofel is old boxes and doors. it also explains why it sounds so awesome.
.......................................
edit: I searched some Persian websites, it definitely has nothing to do with palm trees. I still don't know what they call it in other languages but
it grows in India and Pakistan. that's why it's hard to find in Iran.
I guess those English websites has used google to find translation for foofel too 
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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jdowning
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Always interested in wood species, further investigation provides the following information that will at least allow anyone to easily determine if the
wood is palmwood rather than a hardwood such as a rosewood or walnut.
Palm plants are not trees but are a species of grass. The wood is essentially bundles of cell fibres in a softer cell matrix - so have no growth
rings, sapwood/heartwood or rays etc. found in hardwoods so the type of palm wood cannot be identified without knowing other information such as the
fruit, leaf structure etc. - otherwise all 2,500 species of palm have a similar cell structure visible without need for magnification (see attached
images).
The outer layers of the palm trunk are harder and denser than the soft inner core so are used where strength and density is important.
Palm trees are usually grown for their fruit - coconut, date, betel nut etc - their wood being a secondary product that is used for making furniture,
boxes, construction timbers, flooring etc. (and musical instruments?). The productive life of a palm is usually around 70 years after which time they
are felled and converted to lumber.
The Betel nut palm is grown in India and Pakistan where demand for the betel nut exceeds local supply and has to be imported in quantity from the Far
East. The betel nut palm is also grown in the Arabian Peninsula, East Africa and Madagascar - possible sources for the Iranian market (provided there
are no import restrictions in force to that country).
I would be surprised if established Iranian luthiers did not know more precisely what species of wood 'foofel' was. However, the attached images
should enable - by close examination of a 'foofel' wood sample end grain - whether or not the wood is at least a species of palm even if the type of
palm cannot be determined. No expert knowledge required.
[file]30375[/file] [file]30377[/file] [file]30379[/file] [file]30381[/file]
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SamirCanada
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That oud looks more like some type of rosewood than a palm tree lumber.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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jdowning
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I don't know - never having worked with palm lumber - but impossible to tell from the small image? It will be necessary to view the end grain cell
structure to be sure - and that may not be possible on a completed instrument only from a separate piece of wood used in the construction.
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abc123xyz
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In his book ‘The Traditional Crafts of Persia’ Hans E. Wulff says:
"fūfel - palisander wood, rosewood (Dalbergia spp.); fūfel is originally the name for the betel nut."
David
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jdowning
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Interesting. However if it is a true rosewood (Dalbergia genus) then the most likely candidate would be Dalbergia sissoo ('shisham' or Indian
Rosewood) native not only to India (and Pakistan?) but also to Iran where apparently it is known as 'jag' not 'foofel'- a wood often used for oud
making it would seem. The other alternative Indian true rosewood species might be East Indian Rosewood (Dalbergia latifolia) much used by Western
guitar makers and exported in quantity to Europe and America- unlike 'sissoo'. Not sure if it is also traditionally used for ouds. It generally has
much darker colour (brown/purple/black) than 'sissoo' however and so does not appear to be the wood in the oud image posted as far as I can tell.
So is 'foofel' just a name applied these days to any dark coloured tropical wood (including betel palm) that might look a bit like rosewood to the
inexperienced eye?
Note also that exports from India to Iran apparently are not affected by current trade embargoes so supply of wood from Indian sources should not be
affected or cause of any local shortages in Iran?
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majnuunNavid
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I agree with Dr. Oud that the bridge is not an effective place to adjust action for PLAYABILITY, but it is somewhat effective for adjusting action for
SOUND. I was able to adjust the string height from the bridge on my own Oud to reduce fingerboard "buzz" sound.
I used to have a barbat like this one with a similar bridge. Dr. Oud did some work on it for me actually some years ago.
I wonder what everyone thinks about the bridge style of these, especially the way the strings are tied to the bridge. We use loop ends to get the
string stuck in the hole in the bridge and bring the string up an over the bridge similar to how a guitar is strung.
It is easily visible from the picture I have attached.
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Dr. Oud
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I think majnuuNavid's string tie configuration is an excellent way to use a saddle without increasing the mass of the bridge with a rear tie block.
Atta boy!
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MatthewW
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FOOFEL:
guys, I think we can lay the foofel mystery to rest. I have it from a very good source that this is the incredible true story behind 'foofel'.
Once upon a time, many years ago somewhere in Persia, a luthier was doing some repair and restoration work on a friend's oud.
Now it was getting close to the lunch hour and the owner of the oud wanted to know how the work was coming along, and so he shouted out from across
the road "what wood is that your'e using good friend?"
As there was quite a lot of noise in the nearby market, and so the luthier thought that he was asking ' what would you like to eat for lunch?"
The luthier shouted back to his friend " I'll have a falafel".
His friend couldn't quite make out what the luthier said, also due to the noise in the market, and so thought he had shouted out 'FOOFAL'
to this day no one knows what wood the luthier was actually using, but it came to be known as 'foofal'.
We're not sure if the luthier had a falafel or a shish-kebab later that day.
NOTE- in answer to our dear Doc Oud's observation below that these foods were more Arabic, there is a footnote in the original story that travelling
food vendors of Arabic origin had recently settled in the luthier's town and had opened up food stalls selling falafel and shish which were very
popular with the locals. 
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Dr. Oud
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Sorry, but your story falls apart at the end. Persians don't eat falafel or shish-kebab. These are Arabic foods, not Persian.
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jdowning
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Perhaps they were just 'high' on Betel juice?
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bulerias1981
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Mood: John Vergara Luthier Lord of the Strings instrument making and repair
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I now intentionally drill the holes on the bridge about 2mm lower than what the actual hole height should be.. This is good for two reasons that I
can think of..
1) You can adjust the action manually by pulling the string up by the bridge, and 2) When the action rises, you can easily lower it by using the holes
as is.
The fixed bridge in nature is not a part that allows adjustment of course, but doesn't mean we can't play tricks in order to make it an adjustable
part.
If your next comment is "if you drill the holes 2mm lower, are the strings too close to the soundboard?" And the answer is yes, unless you make the
face concave.. which is a standard procedure for me as well these days.
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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Felafel is not a Persian food, but it's eaten a lot here. I don't know for how long ppl are eating that but I have eaten Felafel since my mother
stopped breast-feeding me
Shish Kebab has the same story. I've heard it's a Turkish kebab but wherever it comes from, I should tell ya that the word "Shish" is Persian. it
means six and refers to 6-months-old lamb (also called Shishak). Man I love oriental kebabs!!!
Anyway, I guess there is a misunderstanding here. Iranian luthiers know what foofel is. They use east Indian rosewood, they use Jag (rarely) and they
use foofel. so when they say something is made of foofel wood, it is not east Indian rosewood or Jag. they just don't know what it's called in English
(the ones I have talked to)
Now that we are talking Sissoo, u should see Iranian Sissoo. I have an oud under construction, I really love the way it looks. I asked the luthier not
to apply any design on the bowl so that the grains can show their beauty.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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My bad, I'm was only Persian by marriage, and have been there only 4 times. I had chelo, sultani, jujeh, bit not shish kabob. I didn't have falafel in
the same form as from the Arab falafel, but my family is from Shiraz, maybe they just don't like it. I miss the food of Iran most of all. I have
uncles in Karaj and visited them every trip. I remember diving for seats on the Metro to Tehran, great fun.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Ah well I guess the mystery remains.
BTW David thanks for the tip about the book 'The Traditional Crafts of Persia:Their Development, Technology and Influence on Eastern and Western
Civilization' by Hans E. Wulff. I have a lot of interest in early technologies so have ordered a used copy on line for my information. Looking forward
to an interesting read!
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abc123xyz
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning |
BTW David thanks for the tip about the book 'The Traditional Crafts of Persia:Their Development, Technology and Influence on Eastern and Western
Civilization' by Hans E. Wulff. I have a lot of interest in early technologies so have ordered a used copy on line for my information. Looking forward
to an interesting read! |
You're welcome, and I do think you'll enjoy it.
Now there's little information about musical instruments in it, only a very basic description of the production of silk strings, and, as far as I can
recall, no information at all about gut strings.
Other than that, however, the book is amazing in what all it covers and in the amount of detail, including metalwork, woodwork, ceramics, and
textiles.
Especially interesting to me was the description of the manufacture of metal-covered thread for lamé, and the fairly simple machinery used to
accomplish it, the method used to make gold and silver leaf, the craft of turning wood on a minimalistic setup that's driven into the ground wherever
the carpenter chooses to work and is operated with a bow. It was amazing to me to learn how many such refined, intricate, and exact items could be
produced by hand with such basic tools.
Moreover the Persian name for every item mentioned, down to the smallest component on a loom, is given (for those interested in that aspect),
including four pages alone listing the names of various species of wood.
I've often thought to myself that the production of nearly every item to be found in a pre-industrial home is covered in this book!
David
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Not a problem - I was not anticipating finding information about musical instrument making - my interests and hands on experience in early
technologies and practices extends far beyond one specialty. Many of the ancient technologies and crafts were still being practiced, where I once
lived as a youngster, up until the 1950's.
I also have an interest in instrument strings that may have once been 'loaded' with metal wire - spun together with the silk filaments to form an
integral part of the string - a possible very early development that might have lead to the familiar modern wound strings?
However that is another story that I will cover in a separate topic on the forum.
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majnuunNavid
Oud Junkie
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Spyblaster,
That sissoo bowl is amazing..!
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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As this Persian/Arabian food episode has calmed down, I'd like to get back to Arabian oud bridges.
I have inquired about the Nahhat's bridges and my trustworthy restorer friend in Damascus told me that all Nahhat's were made of APRICOT
wood. He has seen hundreds of such ouds so he assured me that all of them were carved from the same hardwood. It was usually dyed in black or
brown in order to hide it's original orang/apricot color. The same with Nahat pegs: they were made of apricot wood, for its high density and hardness,
then deeply colored to match by and large walnut surrounding.
Apricot wood was preferred in butcher shops, especially the main cutting surface for the same reason. The endless striking and hammering were not able
to crack or take it down.
Here's the apricot bridge my friend was making.
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
[file]30449[/file]
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Here is what Charles Holtzapffel had to say about Apricot wood in volume 1 of his treatise about wood turning and mechanical manipulation, 1843.
The wood is native of Armenia and is well suited to turning on a lathe. It is rarely found 'sound' (i.e. without flaws or cracks) so is generally more
suitable for small size work.
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