majnuunNavid
Oud Junkie
Posts: 622
Registered: 7-22-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dude, where's my Oud?
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Oud Learning Survey
Hello everyone,
As you may or may not know, I am interested in promoting Oud learning throughout the Western world, for better or for worse. I am in the research and
development phase of creating new Oud learning projects, and I have questions for any Oud enthusiast, or Oud learner, or Oud professional/expert.
I have made a survey where you can answer questions. If you want you can answer the survey here:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/B5P32RF
If not, I have only one all important question that I would welcome anybody on the forum to answer. I will sum it up in several questions:
What were/are your pains when learning the Oud? What frustrates you the most about learning the Oud? What takes all of your practice time? What is the
biggest obstacle to learning the Oud?
It can be anything, I am even open to reading rants!
Thank you in advance for opening up about this. I will start myself...
For me, the biggest challenge was getting comfortable with the Oud. It tore my right forearm. I was confused about left hand and right hand form as
well. I also couldn't immediately find a decent playable Oud. Luckily for me, I already had developed an ear for middle eastern music so finding the
quarter tones were not an issue.
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hartun
Oud Junkie
Posts: 220
Registered: 12-26-2012
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Member Is Offline
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My biggest problem is with the right hand picking. I can play melodies decently but when it comes to filling the music in with drone notes on the
lower strings, I can't seem to figure out when and how to add those in. I also knew previously most of the songs I play and could sing or play them on
the clarinet so I had no problem learning the repertoire. This may be easier for people who already play guitar, I don't know.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1353
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
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What were/are your pains when learning the Oud?
I had a seven course oud that was too large for me and playing it seriously injured my right shoulder. I am almost all healed but it took almost a
year and a half and it hurt a lot, And it also inhibited my freedom of movement with the right arm in daily life.
What frustrates you the most about learning the Oud?
Not having grown up in the culture(s) that created the music there are some basic things —that would be obvious to someone who did — that I can
only pick up gradually. For instance when I hear a piece of music for the first, time I will listen to as many versions as I can and compare different
notated versions and will decide how I want to play it. But my decision may be arbitrary or subjective because I although I may have the impression
that I know what is the basic melody and what is a variation I lack the basis to truly know. That's just one example.
What takes all of your practice time?
There is no single thing that takes all my practice time.
What is the biggest obstacle to learning oud?
It depends on the person. Almost everybody has more than one obstacle. Right now maybe the biggest obstacle for me is spending time doing other
things. A common obstacle for some is they don't spend enough time listening to good musicians. A big obstacle for some is thinking they already know
something that they really don't. In the case of oud it is often the right hand. Bad guitar technique sounds horrible on guitar but even worse on oud.
Many beginners will not accept that very readily. They think that their problem is having the wrong kind of strings or the wrong kind of haircut or
the wrong kind of hat or that if they had a better oud they would be able to make it sound good.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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I have the oud shoulder as well, plus oud elbow and oud wrist. It's osteoarthritis caused by RTS (repetitive trauma stress) from playing oud 45 years,
pounding nails for 15 and computers for 30. I can't hold the oud on my right leg anymore, so I have shifted to a classic guitar position, between my
legs. It's even harder to keep the oud from slipping out, but I use two Oud Grips to help stabilize it. Add computer neck, football knee, and general
physical deterioration..oh well.
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Lysander
Oud Junkie
Posts: 410
Registered: 7-26-2013
Location: London, UK
Member Is Offline
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I enjoy reading Jody's posts, so I will build on this thought pattern.
What were/are your pains when learning the Oud?
Physical pains? These are kept to a bare minimum. Though I do move around into different positions when playing the oud. I used to sit crossed-legged
but don't do this anymore. Now I sit in a chair and use a footstool most of the time. But I don't have any pains as such. If something feels a bit
wrong I change how I do it.
What frustrates you the most about learning the Oud?
I think Jody's answer was very good to this. Having not grown up in the Middle East either I don't have the same musical mindset. And too often I hear
a taksim and it takes me a long time to 'decipher' it and work out how the hell they're doing what they're doing. And I'm talking about the
intellectual tools they possess and not the physical ones. However, I'm lucky that I do have 'access' to that part of the world now since I am married
to a Turkish girl and I go to Turkey at least once a year to meet people and go to the traditional areas.
What takes all of your practice time?
No single thing, though I do spend ten mins - half an hour doing warm-up exercises. But I enjoy these, and learning and playing different
scales/makamlar can be integrated very easily into improvisational playing.
What is the biggest obstacle to learning oud?
Even though once of the biggest attractions to learning the instruments is its lack of frets, sometimes when I think about this or look at the oud I
think, "how the hell do I play this without frets"? But after warming up I settle straight into it. Really it's just overthinking which is dangerous.
Ironically, for someone like me who plays by ear rather than by sight, the oud is played much better with the ear. These days I am learning more to
listen to what I'm playing rather than to look. I don't think it's a good idea to look at the neck and think, "this position on the fretboard means
this note", I just go by what my ear tells me is correct.
If the new Oud for Guitarist product has all of the above that you selected, would you buy it?
Well, when I had enough monies. You probably know as well as I do that when someone says they will definitely buy something it doesn't mean that they
will. I have a lot of experience of this as a gig promoter. If, say, 100 people say they will definitely come to a gig, less than 50% of
those will actually buy tickets. It takes a lot for most people to part with their money.
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Masel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 367
Registered: 6-18-2006
Member Is Offline
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What were/are your pains when learning the Oud?
sitting up straight. remembering to relax my muscles and not tensen up. if i forget, the tension in the hands and body interferes with playing
freely.
What frustrates you the most about learning the Oud?
tuning quite often and wodden pegs. if you are not really in tune the instrument just doesn't sound alive as it should and it really annoys me, the
sound.
also always looking for ways to make it sound less monotonous by finding new ways to play. sometimes not most the oud (as much as i love it) can feel
a little "dull" compared to metal stringed instruments or ones with sympathetic strings.
What takes all of your practice time?
it varies, there is endless ways to practice i am satisfied as long as i really sit and really work on something and/or feel i played and for a few
moments i felt the presence of Music herself.
lately working on original material and taqsim, also i like to play technical excersizes, grooves, learn to play new pieces or songs by ear or by
notes, play along with good music (especially to imitate other instruments or learn pieces), playing pieces i already know, sometimes drumming and
especially singing can add alot of perspective to your playing so i try to do those also...there is much to do! how fortunate we are to be doing
it.
What is the biggest obstacle to learning the Oud?
probably like with anything, not persisting.
all of the answers of negative things i gave are also the reason i love playing the oud and music in general. i think your questions should invite
also positive feelings from the people answering if you want them to feel positive about playing oud. its a trick, but i think it works.
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hussamd
Oud Junkie
Posts: 117
Registered: 12-18-2013
Location: Bartlett, IL
Member Is Offline
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What were/are your pains when learning the Oud?
I am glad to know I am not the only one with a sore shoulder after playing the oud  A little stretching afterwards and the pain goes away.
Holding it was another challenge. It competes with my mid section  A fold-up
chair and foot stool have been working out. It does not help having short arm with a 62cm scale oud.
What frustrates you the most about learning the Oud?
I cannot get the risha picking to be consistent. Forget about the tremolo at this stage. I saw notes advising keeping 45 degree angle - but what
does that mean in a 3-D world? Is it 45 relative to up/down, 45 away from the sting, or both? I am experimenting to see what gives me the best sound
but the tremolo is a challenge at this point.
What takes all of your practice time?
I am not big on formal training. I just put on some music and play along most of the time. I play mostly by ear and not able to look at my left hand
did not impede my playing. My fingers seem to know where to go.
What is the biggest obstacle to learning the Oud?
Finding time is always a challenge. The higher cc strings sometimes sound flat. Trying to play down the fingerboard will take some practice as it
currently sound like a 5 year old trying to play
Playing guitar can sometimes influence the oud picking and probably lead to some bad habits, but at this point I am playing for personal
satisfaction.
I am fortunate to have grown with this music and one of my reasons to play the oud is to reconnect with my childhood and a land far away. It is a
moving experience and a great stress relieve for me. It is an amazing instrument that can carry a song by itself. I really appreciate all the
experiences the forum members are sharing.
Hussam
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majnuunNavid
Oud Junkie
Posts: 622
Registered: 7-22-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dude, where's my Oud?
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Thanks everyone for opening up about these issues. It really gives me some insight.
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DoggerelPundit
Oud Junkie
Posts: 141
Registered: 7-28-2010
Location: Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Odar
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What were/are your pains when learning the Oud?
At first, general arm and shoulder pain caused by improper posture, and tension in playing. A lot of that tension came from keeping the oud from
"swimming around" in my lap while trying to play.
The fix: Like Dr. Oud, I use an Oudgrip to keep the instrument sitting in one place, while both arms are much more "free to be," particularly the left
arm.
The next biggest pain was, and is, tension in the jaw (see the next question).
What frustrates you the most about learning the Oud?
Failing to prevent getting ahead of myself, and forgetting the difference between bad frustration and good frustration. Bad frustration is trying to
execute any passage or exercise at speed without having really learned it. Good frustration is doing the lengthy work necessary to end the bad
frustration.
The fix: I try never to play anything faster than the speed at which I can play it completely clean. This relates to jaw tension. Years ago I noticed
weird mouth movements in amateur bluegrass musicians, i.e. mandolinists, fiddlers and banjo players. Their mouths would writhe about in odd grimaces
while playing difficult passages. The guitarists, playing simple chords and runs, almost never did this. And none of the truly professional musicians
I saw did it either, whatever their instrument. I have seen the same in amateur oudists—including myself, bigtime—but again, not in professionals.
Bottom line, playing passages too fast for their "learned level" creates tension in the jaw; everything from grimaces to jaw clamping. If you doubt
this, try playing with a Necco wafer resting flat between your back teeth. Can you get through the passage without crunching it?
Jaw tension is a good marker for rough spots in a piece, poorly learned passages, and bad playing habits. Playing a difficult passage slowly and
cleanly, over and over and over, will bring speed and clarity without tension. This is the good frustration. Fortunately, this process gets easier the
more you stick to it. It may bring weight loss too, what with using fewer Necco wafers.
And, along with Jody, Lysander, et. al., not having grown up "inside" the music. My "Western ear" is continually fooling me as to the real nature of
Eastern phrasing and tonality. Nothing will solve that except listening all day, every day. Using some software to slow down a passage while keeping
the pitch helps too. I like Acoustica.
What takes all of your practice time?
Well, every aspect I am studying. A better question might be how do I divide my practice time. And this varies too. Like Lysander, scales, maqam and
exercises are important at the start. Say 10-15% of session time. If I am trying to learn a Semaisi, that will be 60% of a good hour to an hour and a
half session. But near the end of that time, I always make sure to take a short rest...5 min. or so...then play through some already well known stuff
for the last part of the session.
What is the biggest obstacle to learning the Oud?
Again along with Jody, Lysander, et. al., getting in enough regular practice time.
The fix: Set a realistic practice schedule and do not deviate from it. Just say no.
-Stephen
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shanfara
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 12-7-2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Is Offline
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There's one major obstacle I always have. Since like most people here (I think), I'm not a professional musician. So, the time I put into practicing
the oud is my free time. Most times I'll pick a song and start playing it and that's how most of my "free time" with the oud is spent. Recently, I
realized that learning music theory would help more. I've picked up a couple of books about western music theory and arabic music theory. I must say
I've learned a lot but I'm struggling to find a course or a routine where I'm instructed to perform certain drills or exercises that will improve me a
lot faster than just me doing it on my own. I wish there was a book that teaches you a specific lesson and then it has a bunch of exercises you have
to follow before going on to the next.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1353
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
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Most printed tutors for Turkish oud do just that.
Quote: Originally posted by shanfara  | | There's one major obstacle I always have. Since like most people here (I think), I'm not a professional musician. So, the time I put into practicing
the oud is my free time. Most times I'll pick a song and start playing it and that's how most of my "free time" with the oud is spent. Recently, I
realized that learning music theory would help more. I've picked up a couple of books about western music theory and arabic music theory. I must say
I've learned a lot but I'm struggling to find a course or a routine where I'm instructed to perform certain drills or exercises that will improve me a
lot faster than just me doing it on my own. I wish there was a book that teaches you a specific lesson and then it has a bunch of exercises you have
to follow before going on to the next. |
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