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Jameel
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[*] posted on 12-17-2004 at 11:55 AM
Aquila Nylgut and short scale ouds


I have a child's oud that I'd like to string with Nylguts. The scale is only 51 cm. There are 4 double courses and one single bass, tuned arabic FADGC. This is the same as standard arabic, just without the lowest C. I'm thinking that one of the Aquila sets will work, but am not that hep on calculations and such. I'm willing to bump up the courses leaving only one course unwound if necessary. Mimmo, Elie, others, can you help?



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Elie Riachi
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[*] posted on 12-17-2004 at 07:56 PM


Hi Jameel,
I'll be glad to help. Here are my caluclations for the tehnsions in newtons for 51 cm scale length if you use the Arabic Aquila set:
F 24.91
A 25.84
D 31.43
G 24.68
C 30.25
The tensions above are about half of what they would be on a regular sized oud, which might be a good thing for childs fingers.

I wouldn't know what the tensions would be from a Turkish set from Aquila since I do not know what the linear mass densities are for each string, if someone knows what they are and posts them then we can calculate these tunsions when tuned to Arabic. But in genral a Turkish set tuned to Arabic will most likely have lower tension than the Arabic set Mimmo will be able to confirm that.

Do you know what tensions you would like to have?

Regards,
Elie
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aquila
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[*] posted on 12-20-2004 at 10:00 AM


Hello my friends,
I think a good idea give you these two tables about the aquila oud sets:


-Aquila oud sets-

-Turkish tuning
vibrating string length: 58 cms
pitch: a-440 Hz
nylgut & gut density =1.30

1st d: 2x .60 mm nylgut = 4.3 Kg each string

2nd a: 2x .77 mm nylgut = 4.0 Kg each string

3rd e: 2x wound strings (of 1.08 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.4 Kg each string

4th B: 2x wound strings (of 1.40 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg each string
..
5th A: 2x wound strings (of 1.68 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.5 Kg each string

5th 5th F#: 2x wound strings (of 1.87 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg each string

6th E: 1x wound strings (of 2.10 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg

6th C#: 1x wound strings (of 2.48 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg




Arabic tuning
vibrating string length: 62 cms
pitch: a-440 Hz
nylgut & gut density =1.30


1st c: 2x .62 mm nylgut = 4.3 Kg each string

2nd g: 2x .80 mm nylgut = 4.0 Kg each string

3rd d: 2x wound strings (of 1.17 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.7 Kg each string

4th A: 2x wound strings (of 1.50 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg each string
..
5th F: 2x wound strings (of 1.87 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.3 Kg each string

5th G: 2x wound strings (of 1.68 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.3 Kg each string

6th C: 1x wound strings (of 2.48 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg

6th D: 1x wound strings (of 2.20 mm equiv. solid gut) = 4.2 Kg

Well, these table have all the possibilities, I hope.


Ciao
Mimmo
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samzayed
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[*] posted on 12-20-2004 at 01:32 PM


Thanks Mimmo, this information is good to know.

Happy Holdiays!
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[*] posted on 12-20-2004 at 01:38 PM


Oh, well...Please may I ask to someone if these tensions are too high?
I have recognized that some do prefere lighter tensions on the turkish set...
I think that there is no problem to make sets lighter.
I only need to understand if the 95% like this change or if they are just a 5% of the players.
Mimmo
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[*] posted on 12-20-2004 at 02:24 PM


Sorry, I meant good to know becuase I am interested in this information, not because it changed my opinion. I still think your strings are the best!

However, I have a 60 cm arabic oud with the Aquilas, and I noticed that the strings were stiffer and the action was a little higher than before. When I tuned 1/2 step lower, the oud felt perfect. I took your advice, and ordered a set of Turkish and will see how they work. Based on the information above, I think the tension will result in a little less than what I have now, at a half tone lower (even better!). Does that sound correct?

Thanks for all help your Mimmo. You truly are a genius at your craft.
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[*] posted on 12-20-2004 at 02:30 PM


A genius??
Mhhh, thank you but... I am just a music-lover ...well, yes the turkish set will make the tension just a semitone down so you will be happy at the arabic tuning.
Ok, thank you about all these so beatutiful opinions.
They help a lot my work..
Mimmo
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Elie Riachi
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[*] posted on 12-20-2004 at 02:54 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by samzayed
....
However, I have a 60 cm arabic oud with the Aquilas, and I noticed that the strings were stiffer and the action was a little higher than before. ....


Hi Sam,

Did you measre the hieght from top of finger board to middle of strings at the neck-body joint for the before Aquila set and the Aquila set?

You might want to loosen all the Aquila strings to the point where they are just barely tight (just straight, minimal tension) and take a measurement then tighten all to be intune and repeat the same measurement and should indicate by exactly how much did the action rise if any. Note measurents taken at the neck-body joint.

I do like the tension on the Arabic set the best. But I may also like a lower tension of the Aquila. It is hard to tell without trying. At any rate the current Aquila Arabic set sounds the best so far.

Regards,
Elie
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[*] posted on 12-20-2004 at 05:38 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Elie Riachi
Hi Jameel,
I'll be glad to help. Here are my caluclations for the tehnsions in newtons for 51 cm scale length if you use the Arabic Aquila set:
F 24.91
A 25.84
D 31.43
G 24.68
C 30.25
The tensions above are about half of what they would be on a regular sized oud, which might be a good thing for childs fingers.

I wouldn't know what the tensions would be from a Turkish set from Aquila since I do not know what the linear mass densities are for each string, if someone knows what they are and posts them then we can calculate these tunsions when tuned to Arabic. But in genral a Turkish set tuned to Arabic will most likely have lower tension than the Arabic set Mimmo will be able to confirm that.

Do you know what tensions you would like to have?

Regards,
Elie


Thanks, Elie. Can you help me determine the tensions for the same set if each course was moved up one position. (Tuning the F to A, the A to D, the D to G, and the G to C---I'm not too concerned with the single F, it's easier to calculate and played rarely) I realize this will only leave one plain pair, but I'm more concerned with sound quality. The tensions you listed above I think would not be tight enough to produce a decent sound. Thanks a bunch. By the way, are you still looking for some wood for ribs? I could saw some for you.




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[*] posted on 12-20-2004 at 07:12 PM


Hi Jameel,

Glad to help friend. Here are my computations for tension in newtons for each string shifted up in pitch (Aquila Arabic set, Arabic tuning)

C--> F 47.38
F--> A 39.63
A--> D 46.14
D--> G 56.12
G--> C 44.08

The G is way up there. How much tension are you aiming for? We can figure the range of densities or gages and go from there.

If you use the 3rd e (1.08 mm equiv. solid gut per Mimmo's post above) from Aquila's Turkish set for the G the the tension drops to 49.4 N.

Thanks for the offer on the ribs and yes I am still looking for some... what kind of a deal can we make?

Elie
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[*] posted on 12-20-2004 at 10:39 PM


Elie,

I did not measure the action. It was purely by feel. When I lowered the tuning, I saw that I was able to do articulation much easier (like hammer on/pull offs, etc) Also, it was easier to run down the scales faster, from the lowest string to the highest, etc.

That was enough convincing for me. Try lowering the tuning by 1/2 and see how it feels:bounce:
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[*] posted on 12-21-2004 at 06:21 AM


Elie,

Thanks! Wow that's tight. I'll have to figure something out with Mimmo I guess.

E-mail me about the wood:

jambraham at mchsi dot com.




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[*] posted on 12-21-2004 at 10:18 AM


Sam,

Dropping down a half a step will lower the tension to 89% of the original tension, so the Arabic Aquila D string on a 62 cm scale length will drop from 47 N to 42 N when tuned C#. Half a kg, 1kg per course would make a difference on the finger I guess.

Tuning a 1/2 step up will raise the tension to 112% of original.

Elie
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[*] posted on 12-21-2004 at 10:19 AM


Jameel,

What range of tensions are you aiming for?
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