Chris_Stephens
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The oud's relationship with the chinese pipa
I've heard that the pipa is related to the oud through the silk road cultural exchanges. I can see it a little in the 'pear' shape and the way pipa
was held back then was similar to the oud, not upright like today. I'm wondering why the Chinese musical tradition doesn't have a concept related to
maqam/dastgah/raga like other silk road musics do. Most of their 'classical' music is written or memorized. Is there a Chinese equivalent of an
improvised musical form?
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abc123xyz
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Yes, they both descend from the barbat. The name pipa is even supposed to derive etymologically from barbat.
Quote: Originally posted by Chris_Stephens  | | I'm wondering why the Chinese musical tradition doesn't have a concept related to maqam/dastgah/raga like other silk road musics do.
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Persia's was one the first great world empires, with influence well beyond its borders, and so it's dastgah system, which underlies the maqam system
as well, was likely the first exposure to an organized system of art music for many of the ethnic groups that later came to use it. The same would
not have been true for the Chinese, who had their own history of music study and theory, system of scales and tunings, etc. Moreover China was never
actually subjugated by the Persians, Arabs, or the Ottomans, as so many of the groups that use the maqam system today were.
There's also the fact that most east-asian music is pentatonic, whereas maqam and dastgah music is largely heptatonic, and so wouldn't readily
supplant the indigenous taste and musical system.
Athough, if that serves to explain why they don't use the specifically Perso-Arabic maqam system, it doesn't explain why they don't use their own
comparable system of melody formulas, which is your real question.
I can't say for sure, but my own guess would be that the Chinese did originally have some sort of melody formulas (almost every pre-modern
culture studied did), judging from their early interest in scales and modes, but that it's merely gone out of practice.
Sadly, the Chinese classical music of today seems to be somewhat stilted, much like Western classical music, the focus being on faithfully reproducing
old precomposed pieces rather than on improvisation, innovation, or invention.
That's likely due to a shift in the majority of the population's interest to modern music, as is true in the West, as well as to the Communist party's
deliberate campaign to destroy much of traditional culture.
David
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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Yeah, the shape suggests kinship, especially with Persian prototypes like barabat, sehrud, etc. It has been been said and written that the words
pipa(China) and biwa(Japan) are cognate with the Indian word "vina/ veena/been/. It should be remembered that in old times "vina"
did not denote today's rudra vina or saraswati vina or the recent vicitra vina. Vina was a genus, a classification, a category. Every plucked string
instrument was a vina of some sort. I am no kind of etymologist so I can't say if "barbat" and vina/bina are related words.
At least one of the schools of zheng playing today does use microtonal pitches. At least one of the schools of qin playing today does include
spontaneous composition ("improvisation"). Li Xianting is very good at this.
And while improvisation is not a major part of Chinese classical music(s), composition does take place. And a major part of maqam music is composing
and the performance of compositions.
Also, don't forget the non-Han maqam music within the borders of China today. I'm thinking of the Uighers of Xinjiang who have a maqam tradition,
related to, but distinct from Tajik and Uzbek shashmaqam music across the western border. This is a stab in the dark but could it be that at least
part of the nature of Han Chinese music can be attributed to differentiating itself from the maqam music to its west?
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Chris_Stephens
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Interesting and informative discussion guys, thanks. I've heard some of this 'ancient' style on the qin, which i think has a reputation of preserving
the old way of Chinese music. I'll have to look into the Uyghur maqam system, it makes sense geographically that it would be practiced there. Its a
shame if it was deliberately destroyed, the pipa seems equally capable of beautiful improvised musical exploration. It just seems like there would be
a similar system there since they were one of the most distinct cultural powers of the day along with the middle east, persia, and south asia. So
their system of improvised music was either purposefully removed by the Communists, phased out by a paradigm shift in the musical tastes of the
people, forgotten in an effort to remain distinct/modern, or never really developed at all it seems. When I first started listening to solo pipa
music I assumed it was improvised like the rest of the music of the 'old world'- maqam/dastgah/raga since it has that "flow", but then i started
hearing the same song twice. 
I'm familiar with the term 'veena', my main instrument is sitar (once called tritantri veena), but i've heard that pipa means 'up, down' because of
the plucking technique.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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A couple of old posts:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=13987#pid95...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=13484#pid92...
I have a series of books by Laurence Picken called 'Music of the Tang Court'.
The music survived in notation in Japan and seems to have been imported into the court at Changan from Central Asia.
Most of the pieces are in heptatonic modes, Dorian, Lydian, Mixolydian but also often revert to a pentatonic scale similar to the 'gapped scale' of
Celtic music.
One relative of this music is the Nanyin music of Fujian province:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0EXIrADaIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBQCvu2FWkc
Fujian also preserves the old pipa - called the Nanyin pipa.
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
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Uyghur Muqam of Xinjiang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-KM037IHiY
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