Chris_Stephens
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Simon Shaheen...how???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mNxwgAmTKM
I've been listening to oud performances for a long time, and i've acquired a fairly sensitive palette for the music. I love the greats like Munir
Bashir, the innovators like Mustafa Said and the young masters like Ahmad al Khatib, other favorites of mine are Adel Salemeh, Nasser Shamma, Marcel
Khalife, but i have NEVER heard anyone play like Simon Shaheen. Everything he plays is unique and perfect. How does he do this magic? I've read here
on other threads that he uses a thick rishi and holds it close so not so much is exposed. Is that it? Someone mentioned he uses traditional tuning.
His instrument just sounds 'different' than anyone else i've heard. Its so clean and tight. Is his sound because his oud or strings are different? His
technique is so fast and flawless it pushes my limits of what i thought was possible. So far, if i had to pick a "best", it would be him. I can't even
explain how blown away I am by him. The video above is an example, from the very first note to the end he is just ON.
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Jody Stecher
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If there is way to explain genius or excellent musicality I have never heard of it. But there is a context to Simon Shaheen's playing, at least in
this example. The context is being steeped in the classics and sort of Becoming the old music, not just remembering that it exists. In my opinion he
learned the old music very well and when innovating he is carrying the past along with him. This is true for technique and for sense of maqam and
for phrasing.
Also, if you study his right hand and arm you will discover the source of his great tone. Sure, a high quality oud and a hard rishi are part his
sound, but I bet he'd get the same sort of sound from any oud-rishi combo.
Also some of the names you have mentioned are, in my opinion, not really playing the same kind of music as Simon Shaheen. It's a bit of an apples and
oranges situation.
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Chris_Stephens
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Thanks, i've been watching his right arm and im not really versed enough to make any distinction. Care to explain that more? I understand everyone has
their own 'way' of playing, especially when dealing with improvisation, but how are the players I mentioned (with the exception of Ahmad al Khatib,
who from what I can decipher is doing something else) not the same kind of music? Who would you say is the 'same kind of music' as Simon Shaheen? And
no genius cannot be explained, but someone more knowledgeable than me could provide some insights as to what i'm hearing that makes it so much more
amazing than others. When he plays so fast, even when switching strings, it looks like his hand isn't even moving 
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Jody Stecher
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Quote: Originally posted by Chris_Stephens  | Thanks, i've been watching his right arm and im not really versed enough to make any distinction. Care to explain that more?
Keep watching and then try to replicate what you see, looking in a mirror. For one thing the down strokes are really down, with no movement away
from the body, away from the face of the oud. The rest strokes might contain some movement toward the soundboard, but not away. Outward motion sound
like "nyeep, nyeep" instead of "tooom". Also the hinge of the wrist is not locked. There is no independent right hand finger motion. The index finger
of the right hand is not pointing at anything. Also the hand is not draped over the side of the oud, it is coming from behind the bridge. There are
other things. Keep looking,
I understand everyone has their own 'way' of playing, especially when dealing with improvisation, but how are the players I mentioned (with the
exception of Ahmad al Khatib, who from what I can decipher is doing something else) not the same kind of music?
Iraqi music and Iraqi oud playing is for the most part a different music and a different mindset. More different than Carnatic music is from
Hindustani, to use familiar references. Especially the school of Munir Bashir. And then there is the way Iraqi oudists Jamil Bashir and Salman Shakur
played which was deeply connected to the playing and musical sense of Sherif Muhiddin Haider Targan, their teacher who came to Baghdad from Turkey to
teach.
Who would you say is the 'same kind of music' as Simon Shaheen?
In general broad terms, musicians from west of Iraq and east of Libya.
And no genius cannot be explained, but someone more knowledgeable than me could provide some insights as to what i'm hearing that makes it so much
more amazing than others. When he plays so fast, even when switching strings, it looks like his hand isn't even moving |
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Chris_Stephens
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | | Quote: Originally posted by Chris_Stephens | Iraqi music and Iraqi oud playing is for the most part a different music and a different mindset. More different than Carnatic music is from
Hindustani, to use familiar references. Especially the school of Munir Bashir. And then there is the way Iraqi oudists Jamil Bashir and Salman Shakur
played which was deeply connected to the playing and musical sense of Sherif Muhiddin Haider Targan, their teacher who came to Baghdad from Turkey to
teach.
Who would you say is the 'same kind of music' as Simon Shaheen?
In general broad terms, musicians from west of Iraq and east of Libya. |
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Im even more confused now! I do understand the Hindustani/Carnatic analogy, I guess im just too new to the music to tell the difference. I assumed
that Arabic/Turkish was similar to North/South India split. Can you go into the different regional styles a bit more? I can tell the difference
between Turkish and Arabic oud playing because of the higher tuning. Are there subdivisions under the Arabic style, like you said, regional or even
national style, ie Iraqi, Egyptian, etc. Any names to go with styles would be very helpful, i've got some listening homework to do!
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Jody Stecher
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Keep listening for a year or two. If you can tell Bhairavi from Bilaskhani Todi and distinguish the differences between Puria, Sohini and Marwa, you
will have no problem discerning differences in types of Arabic oud playing that transcend differences between individual players. Eventually you will
recognize styles and sub-styles in the same way you recognize that green and purple differ from each other.
I think it's time for others to chime in if they are so inclined. A few scattered pieces of answers is all I can manage right now. Sorry if the
following is incoherent. I'm short of time right now:
Many Iraqi players and their students nowadays generally tune higher than the Turkish players, and the latter did not always tune higher. And this
same high F tuning shows up elsewhere. Several prominent players from Morocco seem to prefer it. And Jamil Bashir tuned higher still.
The difference between "Turkish" and "Arab" oud music is in the music itself, even though there is some core repertoire composed in Ottoman times the
Turks and Arab players share. The oud designs and the bracing and voicing reflect the aesthetic differences in the music. Within "Arab oud music"
there are intonation differences that more or less adhere to regions but it depends on era and other factors. Look within the archives of this
website for more parts of the answers. And then there is the music of the Maghreb where the forms and nomenclature are different and whose origins in
part are said to be in ancient Baghdad via Spain. There is more than one style of Iraqi maqam music and in the genre called Iraqi Maqam the forms and
nomenclature are different from Egypt and "The Levant". And then there is the Gulf. Different again. And in Oman I hear similarity with the folk music
of southeast Iran. All of this is very broad strokes and generalized and those who object to these generalizations will be correct. And to complicate
the issue, the most visible oud school in today's Cairo is cultivating and passing on an aesthetic of Iraqi origin that is not at all the same as the
older Cairo oud style and substance and other maqam music of the time of Qassabji and then Sunbati. But I'm rambling/ babbling. And I haven't even
mentioned Aleppo where there was a different aesthetic. And then there is the question of tarab. And bear in mind that political national borders are
transient and sometimes artificial. And there are always exceptions to these over-broad generalizations. Consider Saliba el Katrib who lived in
Baghdad and whose technique was unlike the Bashirs (who were unlike each other).
How's that for disorganized incoherence?
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Brian Prunka
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It may be helpful to know that Simon was playing on concerts with his father when he was 6 years old. So . . . he is an unusual talent.
Simon's playing has nothing to do with his strings or his risha really—he is using normal Pyramid or Labella strings on any of the recordings/videos
you've heard. His rishas are stiff but I've heard him play with whatever was lying around many times and it makes little difference. He has a great
oud, but I've heard him play many ouds and the essence doesn't change. It is 90% in his hands and his mind.
As Jody said, it is mostly his right hand technique that sets him apart. Having his arm come over the bridge is a big part of it.
I played guitar with Simon's band for a few years, and got to watch him many times from a few feet away, and I took some lessons with him also . . . I
learned a lot but I certainly didn't totally unravel the mystery of his skill.
You should come to Simon's music retreat in Massachusetts ... it's every year, usually the second week of August (starts tomorrow this year).
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Chris_Stephens
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Thanks for the insightful replies, good to know about his 'unusual' talent and his arm position, and that its not his strings/risha/oud that sets him
apart. What "style" would you say he plays in the video I posted? I appreciate the use of ragas to apply to different styles, I can discern between
those ragas that use the same notes, but wouldn't it be more analogous to say the difference between Nikhil Banerjee and Vilayat Khan who play sitar
from vastly different approaches due to their 'gharana'? I can understand that, when i first got into Indian music i wasn't aware there are very
different styles of playing- even within the same cultural/geographic region- but now they seem so distant from eachother.
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Brian Prunka
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Simon is playing in a style that is very much drawn from the tradition of Palestine, Syria and Egypt. He has made his own innovations but they are
built on the tradition and the styles of Farid, Qasabji and Sounbati, and his father Hikmat Shaheen, as well as some other influences (and also based
on the vast traditional vocal repertoire, Byzantine church music, Quranic recitation, etc.).
Munir Bashir has a completely different style, based on Turkish and Iraqi music and his own tastes. Naseer Shamma is largely an extension of Bashir's
style and has little to do with the broader Arab tradition. Marcel Khalife has traditional roots but is playing in a more popular/folk style most of
the time and his own style, and has chosen less traditional direction.
Simon is a good example of the traditional sharqi classical style, taken to a level of extreme creativity and technical skill.
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Jody Stecher
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In the Dagar dhrupad tradition in which I was trained, the distinction between the ragas I mentioned is more or at least as much a distinction of
microtonal pitch then of "chalan" ("pathway", the equivalent of seyir). On a harmonium (as with an arabic 24 tone accordion) these differences are
obliterated and these ragas do seem to have the same notes. But good instrumentalists and kheyal singers as well as dhrupad musicians will for
instance play every pitch of Bilaskhani Todi a good deal lower than the "same" pitches in Bhairavi. It is the distinctive and unique pitch of re and
ni that gives Marwa its identity. That is why a musician need only play that Marwa re and the raga will be known to the audience without any phrase
being played.
One way to tell where a maqam musician is from is by pitch. For instance the pitch of the note "segah" is a good indicator. It tends to be lowest in
Egypt and climbs as it moves east. Compare turkish maqam Rast with its intonation in Cario for an immediate illustration of this. In Turkey in the
early 21st century the pitch of segah in Rast is just below a major third. In Cairo it has usually been much lower and (nearly) justifies the name
"half flat". If you listen to the oud players Brian mentioned you will find that their techniques and personalities differ in a similar way as the
techniques and personalities of Nikhil-da and Vilayat Khansahib differ. But they are playing the same kind of music. Listen to any Andalus oud player
in Algeria, Morocco, or Tunisia and its a whole nuther ball game. Same for Munir Bashir school.
| Quote: Originally posted by Chris_Stephens | | Thanks for the insightful replies, good to know about his 'unusual' talent and his arm position, and that its not his strings/risha/oud that sets him
apart. What "style" would you say he plays in the video I posted? I appreciate the use of ragas to apply to different styles, I can discern between
those ragas that use the same notes, but wouldn't it be more analogous to say the difference between Nikhil Banerjee and Vilayat Khan who play sitar
from vastly different approaches due to their 'gharana'? I can understand that, when i first got into Indian music i wasn't aware there are very
different styles of playing- even within the same cultural/geographic region- but now they seem so distant from eachother. |
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