luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 157
Registered: 11-25-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Mastering Çarpma
Hello
I've been kinda struggling to make my Çarpma technique sound good.
So far I think I've managed to make a single attack followed by a hammer-on and pull-off sound good.
But I still can't and don't understand how they use this technique in that common descending fashion. If I try to play it descending and fast, I can
make it sound "similar", but I'm not sure of what i'm doing and it kinda sounds like that haha.
I've read that one of the tricks is to stop the string by barely touching it, rather than doing a full hammer-on.
I know a lot of people on this forum can play this technique in a beautiful way, so can anybody chime in and give some tips on how to develop this
ornamentation?
Does string action affects the way you play it?
Thanks a lot, really!
|
|
|
luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 157
Registered: 11-25-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Anyone?
|
|
|
franck leriche
Oud Junkie
Posts: 175
Registered: 5-18-2011
Location: France
Member Is Offline
|
|
It's related to singing technique, and comes very easily under the fingers when you have it in your ear.
And yes, it's very different from one an instrument to another, if the instrument is build with "turkish playing" in mind it's way more easy, and
sounds more powerful.
To practice, you may find a nice short phrase from a musician you like, listen to it many times, and try to do the same....listen again...try
again...and so on.
|
|
|
John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1463
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oud-Obsessed
|
|
Hi Luan,
I Googled "Ud Çarpma" and found some videos, such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDbPDeqa4OM
As Franck noted, this is primarily a Turkish technique. I suspect it's very hard to learn without an instructor, because it's a subtle technique that
you have to really see up close.
I have a "stupid" question for you: Have you already mastered regular hammer-ons and pull-offs?
The reason I ask it that the Çarpma might be described as a "light, half-hammer-on" and requires a more gentle, subtle touch. I learned from Necati
Çelik, a Turkish master, who gave us an excercise that was PHYSICALLY PAINFUL because of the subtlety of fingering hand control required. (I am
primarily an Arabic-style player and don't use it often.) I don't try to teach a student Çarpma until they've mastered "regular" hammer-ons and
pull-offs.
I imagine the technique might be adapted from other instruments, such as the Turkish bağlama. I don't speak Turkish, so I don't know what he's
saying, but there are videos for such instruments that might be helpful, e.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdC6ZoSFeLY
Peace out,
"Udi" John
|
|
|
luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 157
Registered: 11-25-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks John!
Would you please explain to me that exercise that Necati Celik gave you? I love the way he plays!
|
|
|
adamgood
Oud Junkie
Posts: 499
Registered: 6-27-2005
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: 2.7 koma flat
|
|
It's difficult to diagnose without hearing you play your ornament but here's my hunch.
You describe it as a hammer followed by a pull off after striking the string which in my opinion means you're not on the right track. It is an
ornament that you should learn but not the first one. Here's an amazing two part exercise for you that I got from Yurdal Tokcan (credit where credit
is due!). I work on this with my Macedonian tambura students at Balkan camp in the US and within a couple days they're understanding how to play
ornaments and in most cases, actually do it...all hail Yurdal. I'm not saying this is his exercise but I got it from him. Ok here goes. By the way
it's incredibly simple.
@@@
Exercise #1
1. 1st finger on 2nd string at the 2nd stop/fret. In Turkish tuning I get a concert B. 2nd finger half step above...C for me.
2. Play fingers 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 etc... plucking up and down starting slowly and speeding up gradually until you're blue in the face. With Yurdal
it's something like 5 minutes.
3. Stay with me, we're really getting somewhere.
Exercise #2
1. Same finger locations
2. Pluck down 1st finger, hammer 2nd finger (don't pull off!!) again and again and again and again in time, tempo like you did in #1 but with your
hammer on the C pitch.
3. same deal, start slowly, speed up and make your face turn blue. 5 minutes.
@@@
So simple is it. And you can do this with every finger combination ie, 2 and 3, 1 and 4 etc.
Make sure you're hammer is as loud and strong as can be. You're going for strength here, building muscles.
Exercise #3 comes tomorrow. Please ask questions if I'm vague or this is hard to understand. Sometimes the simplest exercises are difficult to put
into words.
Adam
|
|
|
luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 157
Registered: 11-25-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks a lot Adam!!
I will try to record something today or tomorrow to show you how I can play it now, and you will tell me if it sounds good or it needs a lot of
improvement.
Thanks again!
|
|
|
adamgood
Oud Junkie
Posts: 499
Registered: 6-27-2005
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: 2.7 koma flat
|
|
Do it Luan! I'm happy to listen.
Adam
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks Adam... any chance you could upload a quick video?
I am a visual learner. 
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
|
|
|
luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 157
Registered: 11-25-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks Adam!!
I've been playing it like you said and now I finally don't have doubts about it.
I'm learning a new tune and will record it soon and post it so I can show you my improvement which has been possible thanks to you!
Thanks again!
|
|
|
luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 157
Registered: 11-25-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
I just realized it sounds MUCH better if I play it only using downstrokes instead of alternating. I can coordinate perfectly with alternate, but it
sounds a lot better if I don't.
Does anybody have the same results?
Thanks!
|
|
|
DavidJE
Oud Junkie
Posts: 265
Registered: 7-14-2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Member Is Offline
|
|
I have also noticed that...that it tends to sound better with only down-strokes for me. But with practice that is gradually changing and the gap is
getting smaller and smaller. I think it would be ideal to be able to make it sound the same, because if you want to be able to do it very quickly
(which leads to a different/blended sound than only using down-strokes), you need to be able to make it sound great between up and down strokes.
One thing I am noticing with time is that there is so much to just doing a down stroke followed by an up stroke. I start every practice now just
alternating down and up strokes slowly, then adding a fingered note on the up stroke, and then adding a fingered note between the down and up stroke.
Then I gradually speed that up, with every finger, with alternating fingers, up and down the strings, etc.
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
The upstroke/hammer combination is difficult because it lacks the simplicity of the downstroke/hammer combination where there is a downward movement
with both hands. I wonder if it is worth spending time on though. I wonder why a musician would want to play carpma using a right hand upstroke? Is
total mastery desirable or possible? Have you ever heard or seen a player of Turkish oud play carpma with anything but a downstroke? I have not.
Anything is possible but why spend hours or years breaking new ground when when the basic technique of downstroke and hammer is in the process of
being learned and eventually mastered? Step 2 of Adam's second exercise begins "pluck down", not "down or up."
Carpma is an expression of emphasis. It is adamant. It is declarative and urgent. A down stroke contacts both members of a double course of oud
strings. An upstroke normally contacts only the lower string in the pair (unless the angle of the plectrum rather drastically altered with each
upstroke). So the downstroke is more suited for declarative urgent adamant playing.
|
|
|
DavidJE
Oud Junkie
Posts: 265
Registered: 7-14-2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Member Is Offline
|
|
Perhaps what I think Carpma is is not actually correct. Maybe it's something different.
Is Mavrothi not using Carpma in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_kZMnjRwmk
He is using it with upward and downward strokes.
It looks like Hakan is also using it with upward strokes in this video on Carpma: http://vimeo.com/36449509
|
|
|
luan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 157
Registered: 11-25-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  | The upstroke/hammer combination is difficult because it lacks the simplicity of the downstroke/hammer combination where there is a downward movement
with both hands. I wonder if it is worth spending time on though. I wonder why a musician would want to play carpma using a right hand upstroke? Is
total mastery desirable or possible? Have you ever heard or seen a player of Turkish oud play carpma with anything but a downstroke? I have not.
Anything is possible but why spend hours or years breaking new ground when when the basic technique of downstroke and hammer is in the process of
being learned and eventually mastered? Step 2 of Adam's second exercise begins "pluck down", not "down or up."
Carpma is an expression of emphasis. It is adamant. It is declarative and urgent. A down stroke contacts both members of a double course of oud
strings. An upstroke normally contacts only the lower string in the pair (unless the angle of the plectrum rather drastically altered with each
upstroke). So the downstroke is more suited for declarative urgent adamant playing. |
I've seen Necati Celik, Yurdal Tokcan and a lot of other players always alternate when they play carpma.
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
OK, the literal meaning of çarpma is beat or strike. So in one sense a simple "hammer-on" is literally çarpma. But in the context of Turkish and
Turkish influenced music the ornament identified as çarpma seems to be mostly played as a series of repeated downstrokes. Mavrothi himself can best
answer as to whether he is playing çarpma in that video. I would say it is a simple hammer, or slur. But I may be making a distinction where none
exists. My first impression was that this slur (two notes on one stroke) is being used as means of playing two notes that are part of the melody. But
at full speed it does seem that the hammers are ornamental. ( Rightly or wrongly, I have thought of çarpma as being ornamenal with the hammer being a
rapid "interruption" of the melody note. ). So maybe there is upward çarpma after all. I had not seen it before.
Yes, Hakan seems to be using it in both up and down strokes.
I just now watched random Youtube videos of Necati Çeliki and Yurdal Tockan. Necati Çelik goes faster than my brain does and I'm not sure. In the
case of Yurdal Tockan, so far, every video I've investigated has only successive downstrokes when playing çarpma .
|
|
|
DavidJE
Oud Junkie
Posts: 265
Registered: 7-14-2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Member Is Offline
|
|
The hammers that Mavrothi is playing are not part of the melody. They are "extras"...ornaments. At least, based on the score and on my
understanding. But I'll send him a link to this thread and he can answer for himself. 
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE | | The hammers that Mavrothi is playing are not part of the melody. They are "extras"...ornaments. At least, based on the score and on my
understanding. But I'll send him a link to this thread and he can answer for himself. |
you are right. Read my edited post.
|
|
|
mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
Member Is Offline
Mood: big band envy
|
|
Hi,
I am not a Turkish speaker, but musically speaking, I consider carpma to be describing a left hand hammer on ornament, regardless of picking
direction. Sometimes successive down strokes work best, other times alternate picking makes more sense, depending on how much you want to stress the
hammer ons and how fast they are.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see any real reason to differentiate it according to picking direction other than to help guide someone in the picking
possibilities within a specific (ornamented) passage.
Thanks,
Mavrothi
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks, Mavrothi. Thanks to this conversation spanning continents and time zones, I have revised my idea and expanded my concept of çarpma in oud
playing.
| Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis | Hi,
I am not a Turkish speaker, but musically speaking, I consider carpma to be describing a left hand hammer on ornament, regardless of picking
direction. Sometimes successive down strokes work best, other times alternate picking makes more sense, depending on how much you want to stress the
hammer ons and how fast they are.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see any real reason to differentiate it according to picking direction other than to help guide someone in the picking
possibilities within a specific (ornamented) passage.
Thanks,
Mavrothi
|
|
|
|
Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
|
|
Here are two videos that make the technique a little easier to see. These videos aren't musical but do a good job of breaking down how to approach
practicing the technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EUxTO981eE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HV6PiZnamo
|
|
|
Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
|
|
Another helpful video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDbPDeqa4OM
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
