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Author: Subject: My first oud
jdowning
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[*] posted on 11-12-2014 at 08:08 AM


Or just use a traditional bending iron and avoid messing around trying to 'get it right' with a hot air gun!

Your bent ribs should all coincide as perfectly as possible in profile before being fitted on the mold for the bowl.

The glue does not melt but immediately loses water so that it turns hard. The iron must be hot for this to occur if warm it will just re-melt the glue and not work. You will not then melt it by applying more heat on the other side of the rib.
See how I use scorched glued paper when assembling ribs on the mold. This is a very ancient method still used by some professional oud makers today - try it for the experience.
I explain the procedure here:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8488&pa...
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faggiuols
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[*] posted on 11-12-2014 at 08:37 AM



Quote:

I explain the procedure here:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8488&pa...

sorry Jdowning

...or I did not understand the procedure or not I found this post!
you can tell me the date and time of the post?
thanks
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[*] posted on 11-12-2014 at 09:08 AM


Post starting 6-4-2009 onwards.
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faggiuols
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[*] posted on 11-12-2014 at 09:27 AM


Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
Post starting 6-4-2009 onwards.


found it!

thanks
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faggiuols
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[*] posted on 11-17-2014 at 01:51 AM


an update!
I finished folding the ribs and proceed with the completion of them.
Use a glass with sandpaper applied to have a perfect surface.

[file]33357[/file]
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[*] posted on 11-17-2014 at 01:56 AM


the ribs are coming pretty well and the surfaces coincide, when I combine them to see if I can paste them.

I produced the base to warm them with iron as recommended by Jdowning. at the moment I put the ribs finished with a rubber band.
I have yet to find the iron!
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[*] posted on 11-17-2014 at 02:02 AM


I also started numbering definitive of the ribs for the bonding phase.
the 1 is the first. on the left in even numbers growing, on the left in odd numbers growing.

below the ribs to be finished.

[file]33361[/file]
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faggiuols
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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 09:08 AM


good morning to all!
An update from my work.
I am preparing the stage of gluing the ribs according to the method recommended by Jdowning.
in the photo the paper that I will use to close the ribs.
I also got the glue on the block as recommended by Jdowning.
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faggiuols
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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 09:15 AM


and here's the first rib glued !!!


[file]33407[/file]
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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 09:17 AM


of course before I paste the iron rib with iron as the foto shows. (also suggested by Jdowning !!). Then I prepared the paper glue for fastening the ribs during bonding, but my time was not much and I had to postpone the operation for another day. the next day I found the glue paper curled as he said Jdowning. therefore it is ready for use. indeed it was said that it would be ready after about 20 minutes, but perhaps the different types of paper made no difference.
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faggiuols
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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 09:22 AM


very well. everything goes according to plan!
I could not try the glue paper because I had to place the thread between the ribs. so I cut a strip of maple and glued it to the rib # 2 ..
then will paste together rib and white thread!

I can use the glue paper even after a few days I made it?

[file]33415[/file] [file]33417[/file]
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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 09:27 AM


I'm pretty pleased with all the work today. especially because the information received from this forum have proved useful and clear.
I thank all those who kindly helped me in the beginning of this adventure and hope they do not leave me alone in the continuation of the work.
the next one!
bye
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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 09:32 AM


The Rosewood is looking good Faggiuols!

however, I am concerned that the tape is also wrapped around the section that will touch the next rib... this cant be there otherwise it wont be glued properly to the rib. I am sure you know that however :)




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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 09:58 AM


Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada  
The Rosewood is looking good Faggiuols!

however, I am concerned that the tape is also wrapped around the section that will touch the next rib... this cant be there otherwise it wont be glued properly to the rib. I am sure you know that however :)


Hello Samir. Thanks.

I had to pull the thread of maple to tighten glue.
after I will clean the bonding surfaces before gluing the ribs.
what difficulties there may be with the tape on the surface bonding?

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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 10:12 AM


I meant, I hope you will remove that tape before you glue to the next rib!

now I see, the maple, it is very thin!
In an effort to save you time and headache I can assure you that you can glue the 2 ribs and the middle strip of maple all at the same time.

Just put glue on the ribs and on the strip and use the tape to clamp everything together.

also you have a chance to damage the maple strip when you remove the tape.


What kind of glue are you using? hide (animal) glue? you don't need to use the paper right at the beginning, you can just use a fine brush to put glue only where it needs to be on the edge of the ribs, after that when it comes time to glue to the next rib, you can use the heat gun to soften the glue and push it against the next rib.
No need to use the iron and paper, its an old messy technique and you have the heat gun so use it :)
believe me this will save you A LOT of time at the end to scrape the bowl.

you can put the paper on the inside after you have finished the bowl of the oud between the ribs.




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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 10:36 AM


Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada  
I meant, I hope you will remove that tape before you glue to the next rib!

now I see, the maple, it is very thin!
In an effort to save you time and headache I can assure you that you can glue the 2 ribs and the middle strip of maple all at the same time.

Just put glue on the ribs and on the strip and use the tape to clamp everything together.

also you have a chance to damage the maple strip when you remove the tape.


What kind of glue are you using? hide (animal) glue? you don't need to use the paper right at the beginning, you can just use a fine brush to put glue only where it needs to be on the edge of the ribs, after that when it comes time to glue to the next rib, you can use the heat gun to soften the glue and push it against the next rib.
No need to use the iron and paper, its an old messy technique and you have the heat gun so use it :)
believe me this will save you A LOT of time at the end to scrape the bowl.

you can put the paper on the inside after you have finished the bowl of the oud between the ribs.

now I can not show you a picture of the wire, but it's straight and paste it need to do so slowly, feature by feature.
I can not hold it in position curve to glue, conveniently, the two ribs.
That is why I decided first paste the wire to the rib 2 and then will paste both to the rib # 1.
I will post a picture that explains better than my English!
I use animal glue! I can also use the iron to heat the joint between the ribs if it is not perfect ..
it is true that the paper to be polished after glue has to be tough !!
I was thinking of using a scraper ..
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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 11:05 AM


ok I see you didn't bend the maple strips... you can do that if you want. using a few pieces of tape to hold all the maple strips together, you can bend them all at the same time like a rib! but only risk it if you think you can do it and you have extra strips.

Using a scraper is good but really, it will be a pain in the ass to scrape off all the hide glue. It dries like a piece of glass!
make sure you don't burn the glue when you reheat it, I see a lot of oud makers use the technique and they burn the glue.. its not good it only needs a little bit of heat to return liquid. trust me we don't need to have a lot of glue everywhere only a small precise amount between the ribs will save you lots of time on scraping and clean up.




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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 01:00 PM


You might find the slide show of an oud under construction by Turkish luthier Dincer Dalkilic to be of interest - on his website here:

http://www.oudmaker.com/index.php

Note that Dincer is using that 'old messy technique' of glued paper strips to assemble the ribs of the bowl (including the lines between the ribs that are bent in place with a hot iron). It works just fine for him!

All that paper and glue on the exterior of the bowl is of little consequence as it will be completely removed anyway as a matter of course once the bowl exterior surface is finished to a smooth semicircular profile with scrapers and sandpaper.
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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 02:59 PM


Sir John I am not disparaging the old techniques for no reason. Even without the messy paper technique scraping off dried hide your squeeze out is a pain for me and there is really barely any at all.

It would be a nightmare to scrape off a bowl that is basically laquered in glue. Further to this I have heard that this technique is prone to burning the glue and causing glue failures after a short period of time.




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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 03:32 PM


You have no actual first hand experience of the benefits (or otherwise) of this traditional oud /lute making technique do you Samir - you are just expressing an opinion.
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[*] posted on 11-21-2014 at 04:29 PM


Yes thats correct, its what i was told by a luthier and also by someone who's Oud developed major problems from the technique used. You are right I didn't do a scientific experiment to determine if say it was the technique that was the issue, if the iron was too hot or maybe the glue used was spoiled. Surely there is a way to do it right, and I think using a clothes iron with some steam will be safe enough. Especially compared to the turkish method of leaving an iron on a open gas flame for an extended period of time.

however i have experience scraping Oud bowls, as do you. We know you enjoy dull things in life but I am sure scraping lute bowls for an eternity isn't one of those things :)




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[*] posted on 11-22-2014 at 03:11 AM


thanks Samir and Jdowning
for your interest in my work. if my oud will be an acceptable thing, it will be much for your contribution.
I understand very well what it says Samir. hot glue when you plug is difficult to remove. However, the technique that Jdowning suggests is very charming.
I do not do oud to sell but only for my pleasure! So I can take more time to do things like fascinates me more!
I would like to try it.
maybe it will not be good so I will the traditional one way.
I however have to sand 1 mm thickness of the bowl so I have to work hard in any case on it.
I also like the fact that I can mount the ribs without waiting for the glue is dry the previous!
I'll try. of course I will update !!! thanks
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[*] posted on 11-22-2014 at 03:16 AM


I would also like to know from Jdowning
if he thought the images of the paper glue prepared seems correct.
I can also use it after a few days or should be used within a short time?
thanks
PS did you see this post?
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=15306
there is a question for you with a my drawing about the deformation of the oud that interested me.
thanks
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[*] posted on 11-22-2014 at 06:48 AM


I don't want to spend time going over in detail stuff that has already been posted on the forum. The glued paper method for bowl making is described here:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8488&pa...

Starting at 6-4-2009. The way to prepare the glued paper etc. is summarised at 6-8-2009 and the best method for fast and clean removal of the exterior paper strips (after removal of the bowl from the mold and gluing of the internal rib joint reinforcement) is described at 6-15-2009. As you will see the paper strips should be freshly prepared for each rib being glued.

The paper coated bowl ensures that the bowl is held together without risk of the rib joints separating due to handling until the interior joint reinforcement is glued in place. Removal of the exterior paper is not a particularly tedious operation so likely would not be of interest to members of the Dull Men's Club. Removal of the paper also takes with it most of the glue the remaining thin glue residues are then easily removed during the normal finishing operation on the bowl that would be done regardless of whether or not glued paper strips had been used. Scraping accurately made lute bowls for eternity is not a necessity. Oud bowls require a greater amount of finishing work to remove excess material required to produce a smooth semicircular exterior surface.

Don't use a steam setting on a household iron for any of this work! A better tool for the job is a small thermostatically controlled electric iron however a much simpler iron is one that is easily made and heated on an electric stove element (set to a low temperature) or open flame. Regardless of the method used to heat the iron, the correct temperature may be determined by experience (after a few trial and error tests) such as tapping the heated iron (quickly!) with a moistened finger tip and listening to the sound produced (splat!) - in the same way the correct temperature of a flame heated bending iron is determined. No doubt this is how the old Turkish luthiers judged correct temperature.

Concerning oud deformations under string tension. Again, I have posted information about this subject in the past so am a bit reluctant to go over the same ground again.
However, if I can find time I may post a separate topic covering specifically this subject as I think that it should be of general interest.

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[*] posted on 11-22-2014 at 07:47 AM


Here for information is an example of a simple heated iron made for ironing glued joints, glued paper etc. Made from a piece of scrap copper, steel rod and an old wooden file handle (for heat insulation). No need for copper as a small flat block of steel would also do the job.

As with all simple tools some experience and skill is needed to use them correctly. I have used this tool to deliberately scorch sound board surfaces so it would be possible to set fire to your oud if heated to too high a temperature. Good judgement required!
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