mercm525i
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Help with Pyramid Lute String selection and tension
Hi everyone,
I currently have a 58.5cm Nazih Ghadban oud. I'm looking to put Pyramid lute strings on it but I want to run some tension calculations by you.
Currently I am using the Aquila (low tension) 13o strings. Those are advertised at 3.9kg for a 62cm oud, but I tune a full step down from CFAdgc on my
58.5cm oud.
So please correct me if I'm wrong, but according to oudstrings.com:
- To get the tension for 58.5cm we subtract .13kg per cm of vibrating string length, so 62-58.5=3.5cm length difference * .13kg = .455kg. So the
aquila strings if tuned to concert pitch CFAdgc are 3.9-.455 = 3.445kg on my 58.5cm oud.
- Since I always tune a full step down, the tension will also drop by ~.8kg for tuning a full step down so 3.445kg becomes 2.645kg?
Is this correct?
I am working with a local lute shop who carries pyramid lute strings and he says I am at about 2.8kg not 2.645kg. He also told me at 2.8kg is too low
even for low tension and the oud is not really reaching resonance at that low of tension and he recommended I be at ~3.2-3.4 at my full-step down
tuning.
He said if I really wanted to stay at 2.8kg this is what he recommended;
pynr 675
pynr 900
PY 1010.5
PY 1017
PY 1124
PY 1238
He asked me to experiment with slightly higher tension like the 3.2kg he recommended so he told me with the strings I have now to tune it a half-step
up (so Bb becomes B). So I did and the oud definitely responded better and louder, but I wonder will it respond that good with strings that will give
me 3.2kg at my full-step down tuning? Basically I'm asking what made my oud resonate better when I brought it to 3.2kg tension, was it the tension or
was it the frequency of the half-step higher tuning? So if I get strings that are 3.2kg tension but for my full-step lower tuning will it respond as
nicely as when I tried strings that gave me 3.2kg tension at half-step tuning or was that the higher frequency that gave me the extra resonance?
What do you guys think and do you have any recommendations? Am I currently at 2.645kg or 2.8kg like he says right now?
What do you recommend for tension (as I like the arabic classic sound, warm and not bright, like nahat ouds), like the Farid sound.
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SamirCanada
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one of the advantages of low tension to me is also the easy of play, the Risha and figers seem to operate better for me at a lower tension. if you
maintain the high tension at low tuning you may have really thick strings that may not feel comfortable and you loose that ease of playing.
try it and let us know I guess  I am curious to see what you think.
Also, remember that lutes are played with fingers and arent very loud compared to ouds. perhaps this is why in his mind its best to maximize the
volume.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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mercm525i
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I definitely agree playing is more fluid when I have the lower tension but I am trying to at least figure out what tension I am currently at so that I
can bump it up slightly and to also figure out if my calculations are correct. I am pretty sure that the tension I use now if very low so it would
still be low tension if I bumped it up a little. I think he has some experience with ouds (he plays one too) and has strung a Manol oud for historical
purposes for a museum from time to time. http://www.bostoncatlines.com/2101.html
I agree I don't want full tension at the full-step low tuning but the oud really woke up when I tuned it only half-step down instead of full-step down
so I'm trying to back-calculate what that tension is and use it for the full-step lower tuning. Also, I'm wondering what made it sound more alive, the
frequency or the tension when I tuned it only half-step down?
Thanks for your help again Samir.
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jdowning
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About seven years ago I posted a set of string tension tables for Pyramid lute strings (with kind permission of Pyramid).
These may be of interest particularly for the composite wound string tensions that do not follow the Mersenne-Taylor calculation for plain
monofilament strings. So - for example - if you use the convenient Arto Wikla on line calculator (for plain strings) you will get wrong answers for
the wound strings based upon string outside diameter and string length.
Pyramid also sell a convenient slide rule type calculator for their strings
You might also try a Forum search for strings and string tension calculations
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=4299#pid280...
Note also that it is not usual to have equal tension for all of the strings - tensions usually are highest for the top string and fall gradually to
lowest tension for the bass so, for example, might be 35Newtons for the first course, 33N for the second and third and 26N for the remainder (9.8
Newtons = 1 Kg. force). Under the fingers however tensions feel equal.
All ouds (and lutes) have an optimum string tension as well as pitch - the pitch at which the natural air resonance of the bowl cavity is at its
maximum. Adjust the tuning pitch to get optimum results - it will vary from instrument to instrument depending upon the volume of the bowl cavity and
sound hole diameter.
Too much string tension can over stress the sound board to negative effect acoustically.
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Brian Prunka
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Sing into the bowl and find the resonant frequency of the oud, that will help you figure how much is the actual pitch and how much was the tension.
Those calculations on oudstrings.com are for estimation—they are good for getting a ballpark figure but not meant as a substitute for detailed
calculations.
2.8 is low for an average tension . . . depends on the oud. 2.8 is OK for the 2nd course . . . .900mm is pretty thick, so even with lower tension the
thinner string gives a bit nicer sound.
I do usually try for around 3.2Kg average tension.
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mercm525i
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Best thing is to get a freq generator and sweep until I hear the resonance with the tension i want with the strings muted, so I can get the bowl
resonance...maybe later.
Thank you guys for the input. I used jdowning table from Pyramid let me know if something sounds funny for my selections.
Since I tune a full-step down Bb, Eb, G, C, f, bb:
Bb I selected 1236 from table 5 (note A) for 58cm 2.42 +~.4kg =2.82kg since Bb is half step above A. (Not sure if I can use table for note C because
1236 for 58cm shows 3.36kg - ~.8kg gives me 2.56 which is far from the 2.82, not sure which one is closer to 2.8??
For Eb I selected string 1027 from table 3 (note E) for 58cm 3.26 - ~.4kg = 2.86kg since Eb is half step below E.
For G I selected string 1020 from table 3 (note G) for 58cm 3.17kg
For C I selected string 1012 table 2 (note c) for 58cm 3.1kg (I'm not sure if this is wound or not?)
For f I selected string .95 table "Nylon 3-small (not fis, I assume this means f sharp?) 3.5kg -~.4kg=3.1kg since f is half step below f sharp.
For bb I selected string .75 table "Nylone 2-small" (note h, which I think means b) 3.7kg - .4kg since bb is half step below b.
Basically whatever the tension was that I had with the 13o Aquila strings tuned a half-step down is the tension I want, but for a tuning of a
FULL-step down. I hope I selected something that made sense and please correct me if I'm wrong or approached this the wrong way.
Thank you.
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jdowning
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The air resonance frequency can also be determined quite accurately by holding a microphone over the sound hole and tapping the sound board. The
recorded signal file can then be input to a PC and spectrum analysed using free 'Audacity' software to establish the air resonance peak frequency.
This is about the frequency that your fifth course should be tuned to. See here:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=14874
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mercm525i
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jdowning as an engineer I greatly enjoyed that thread you pointed me too. However, in the case that I end up with a resonant frequency to match the
fifth course, I am hoping it does not end up being a higher tuning as I really enjoy the full-step lower tuning. I can always give it a try, I am
curious now, but would changes in string tension effect the result I get for the resonant frequency or is it independent on the string tension and
only on the oud physical characteristics? Also instead of getting pyramid lute strings I thought about getting Aquila again except the 9o set instead
of the 13o and then tune a full-step down! That might get me to about ~3kg is that correct? which might be close to the 13o tuned only half step down
since I liked that tension. What do you think?
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Microber
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Just for information, here is a table with the strings I have used with a Turkish oud with a strings length of 58.5 cm which I found very
satisfaying.
I hope it can help.
Robert
[file]32923[/file]
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jdowning
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My bowl air resonance trials indicate that string tension does not affect the bowl resonance frequency measurement. When testing an instrument fully
strung and under tension I damp string vibration for the test with felt strips woven through the strings - so no need to remove the strings for
testing. The air resonance of a bowl depends upon bowl volume and geometry and sound hole diameter (as well as sound board flexibility).
Note also that there is a bandwidth tolerance so that frequencies at minus 3 Decibels below the peak value on either side of the resonance curve sound
equal in loudness to the human ear. I forget now by how much the frequency might vary (about ±10%?) so - for example - for a measured air resonance
peak of say 110 Hz, the tolerance range would be from 99 Hz to 121Hz. So if your 5th course is G 98Hz tuning you would still be within the optimum
range (close enough). A wider tolerance range at minus 10 Decibels might also be acceptable to the human ear that will tolerate an even greater
loudness reduction.
I am not familiar with the Aquila range of oud strings.
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mercm525i
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The strings I ended up selecting were:
PYK 1240 Bb
PYK 1029 Eb
PYK 1020 G
PYK 1012 C
88NG (nylgut) F
66NG (Nylgut) Bb
This should give me about 3.2kg of tension on the last 4 courses and about 3.4kg on the 1st 2 courses, hopefully these feel low tension. If not, I am
tempted for next time to change the 1240 to 1238, the 1029 to 1027, and the nylguts to 86 and 64. I should receive them today I will let you know how
they sound maybe post a small sound clip.
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Brian Prunka
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Quote: Originally posted by mercm525i  | The strings I ended up selecting were:
PYK 1240 Bb
PYK 1029 Eb
PYK 1020 G
PYK 1012 C
88NG (nylgut) F
66NG (Nylgut) Bb
This should give me about 3.2kg of tension on the last 4 courses and about 3.4kg on the 1st 2 courses, hopefully these feel low tension. If not, I am
tempted for next time to change the 1240 to 1238, the 1029 to 1027, and the nylguts to 86 and 64. I should receive them today I will let you know how
they sound maybe post a small sound clip. |
1240 Bb = 31N
1029 Eb = 32N
1020 G = 32N
1012 c = 33N
Those gauges look good. If you wanted to tweak it a bit, for the c, I would suggest 1111 (32N), for the Eb 1028 (31N) and for the Bb, 1440 (32N) or
even 1441 (34N). The low single course is not doubled, so it's okay to bump up the tension a bit, in my opinion—low frequencies require more power.
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mercm525i
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Hi Brian,
Thank you for the suggestions. I finally strung them up yesterday. I actually found them to be quite high tension, maybe because they are still new
and need to stretch out more before the tension goes down?
According to the Pyramid contact, the strings I selected produce the following tensions:
bb - nylon 0,750 = 3,4 kg
ff - nylon 0,950 = 3,0 kg
cc - no. 1012 = 3,2 kg
GG - no. 1020 = 3,4 kg
Eb Eb - no. 1029 = 3,5 kg
Bb Bb - no. 1240 = 3,3 kg
Their estimate seems high. (Also I know I went with Nylgut, on the first 2, I think I'm around 3.4kg on that, a little higher than I prefer but we'll
see. I might switch them to 64NG, and 85NG which should give me about 3.2kg)
According to them if I want 3.2kg they suggest the following:
bb - nylon 0,725
ff - nylon 0,975
cc - no. 1012
GG - no. 1019
Eb Eb - no. 1027
Bb Bb - no. 1238 or 1239
I'm not sure which one is right anymore, I even used the pyramid tables posted here on the forum got answers closer to your estimation Brian.
Seeing that they are too tense I think I will swap them out again. Maybe you can help me with this.
I really liked the tension when I was the 13o Aquila set tuned half step, let's call this tension "x". I want tension "x" but for being tune a
full-step down...what tension is that and what strings would you recommend for that? Maybe that is 32N and I just have to wait for the strings to
settle.
Also, do you think you could recommend a set for 3kg? Do you stock these strings and do you carry the pyramid string slide rule, I would like to get
it.
Thanks.
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mercm525i
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I've attached a sound clip emphasizing on the 3rd course (dd except tuned full step down so cc) which is string PYK 1012.
Its sounds too metallic or brassy not sure if that's the right description but let me know what you think. Not playing here just emphasizing the sound
of the 3rd course. Is that from the string that is sounds so brassy or metallic?
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rojaros
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I listened to the soundclip. I think, concluding from the sound, there is a lot of buzz and the sound seems to be stopped, which would be a sign of a
too low action. Try how it is if you raise the action by a small amount, which is sooo easy with oud...
Low action is of course nice for easy playing, but after all the most important thing is the sound ... the higher action will give more volume, more
dynamics and a fuller sound.
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