| Pages:
1
2 |
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Yet another buzzing problem
Good day to you all,
Now, I know there have been countless of threads about this problem and I've been reading each of them without any result to fix my buzzing issue. I'm
really starting to get desperate solving this since this has been a problem I have been coping with for almost a year now.
I have a Maurice Shehata oud for a few years now and recently I had let the oud builder place a layer of ebony on the fingerboard to fix my buzzing
issue because of fingerboard wearing.
This has made most of the buzzing disappear. However, I can still hear annoying buzzing when pressing notes with my fingers on the 3rd and 4th
courses. It is very hard to feel where the buzz is coming from. It seems as if it's coming from the fingerboard and the oud body simultaneously. The
strings do not buzz when hit open (without pressing my fingers on them).
Things I have checked/done trying to solve this:
1. I have tried increasing the action of the strings (pushing the string loops at the bridge a bit higher and putting a thin layer of wood behind the
nut). No result.
2. I tried tapping the face of the oud to hear any rattling; when doing this I can hear a faint echo that extends after a tap, this echo sounds as if
a note is being hit. However, I'm not sure if this falls under rattling.
3. When playing the buzzing note on another octave, I don't hear any buzzing.
4. I have tried my best to keep the strings seperate and not touching each other in the peg box.
5. The ebony fingerboard isn't wearing off, although I can see a very faint string mark on it beneath the 3rd string, presumably the color of the
string leaving a mark.
I have always been using Pyramid strings for my oud and I'm starting to think that this might be the culprit here. I am using a FADgcf tuning (read
this from low to high pitch) and I am wondering if this could be the cause of buzzing in case Pyramid strings are not made to deal with such a tuning.
The strings that are currently on the oud are 3 months old.
PS: Ever since I have bought this oud and replacing strings ever so often, the 2nd course always has had a buzz the second I hit a pressed note on it.
This buzz however does not extend after a strike unlike the 3rd and 4th course; its buzz starts and stops immediately the second I finish a strike on
it. It sounds as if the pair of strings of this course are hitting each other. I'm doubting this buzz problem has the same cause as the above but I
just thought I'd let you guys know in case it does.
If any of you guys could help me try to fix this seemingly unfixable problem I would be very grateful.
|
|
|
DavidJE
Oud Junkie
Posts: 265
Registered: 7-14-2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Member Is Offline
|
|
Johnny,
I recently solved a similarly difficult buzzing problem with my Arabic tuned Türünz oud, but it buzzed on open strings and fingered notes and only
on one course, so I'm not sure if this well help or not...but you might as well give my solution a try.
When I bought my oud it came with Kürschner strings, and there was no buzzing at all. I switched to a custom set of Pyramid lute strings, and right
away the 'g' course (F C A d g c) was buzzing badly. I'm not sure the fact that the strings were Pyramid mattered, as it was a "nylon" course that
was buzzing...PVF strings in this case. After trying a variety of things, I figured I'd try changing the strings, since the original strings didn't
buzz.
The original 'g' course strings were 6065 PVF. I believe that is .65mm. The Pyramid 'g' course strings were .71mm PVF. So first I tried some
D'addario rectified nylon strings that were .76mm. The buzzing continued. Then I tried D'addario regular nylon strings at .71mm. Still buzzing.
Then I switched to a .62mm PVF set from Özten, which I purchased from Cengiz Sarikus in Istanbul...and the buzzing instantly stopped. So I'm fairly
sure that the problem was the thickness of the strings on my particular oud. I don't know why, but at .65mm and .62mm there was no buzzing, but at
.71mm and .76mm there was. So if you've been using the same strings all along, you might try switching to lighter (or heavier) strings and see how
that changes the buzzing.
|
|
|
mercm525i
Oud Junkie
Posts: 145
Registered: 12-18-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: mnee7
|
|
The buzzing might occur with the thicker strings because the spacing between the 2 unison tuned strings might be touching at times causing a buzz.
Which is probably why when you switched to thinner strings the buzzing stopped.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE  | Johnny,
I recently solved a similarly difficult buzzing problem with my Arabic tuned Türünz oud, but it buzzed on open strings and fingered notes and only
on one course, so I'm not sure if this well help or not...but you might as well give my solution a try.
When I bought my oud it came with Kürschner strings, and there was no buzzing at all. I switched to a custom set of Pyramid lute strings, and right
away the 'g' course (F C A d g c) was buzzing badly. I'm not sure the fact that the strings were Pyramid mattered, as it was a "nylon" course that
was buzzing...PVF strings in this case. After trying a variety of things, I figured I'd try changing the strings, since the original strings didn't
buzz.
The original 'g' course strings were 6065 PVF. I believe that is .65mm. The Pyramid 'g' course strings were .71mm PVF. So first I tried some
D'addario rectified nylon strings that were .76mm. The buzzing continued. Then I tried D'addario regular nylon strings at .71mm. Still buzzing.
Then I switched to a .62mm PVF set from Özten, which I purchased from Cengiz Sarikus in Istanbul...and the buzzing instantly stopped. So I'm fairly
sure that the problem was the thickness of the strings on my particular oud. I don't know why, but at .65mm and .62mm there was no buzzing, but at
.71mm and .76mm there was. So if you've been using the same strings all along, you might try switching to lighter (or heavier) strings and see how
that changes the buzzing. |
Hello,
So I just replaced my Pyramid strings with La Bella strings. The buzzing on the 3rd and 4th course is a bit less but still there, especially when
pressing the notes Si (4th course) and Mi (3rd course) on them (middle finger). Unfortunately, the 2nd course got even worse when playing pressed
notes. Also, the pair of strings on the 5th course tend to touch each other when playing its open note which leads to a buzz after the strike.
The La Bella strings are new. Do La Bella strings buzz for a while when they're new, just like Pyramid strings? Should I wait with judging until the
strings are stretched out enough?
|
|
|
DavidJE
Oud Junkie
Posts: 265
Registered: 7-14-2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Member Is Offline
|
|
I think the important thing here is the size difference in the new strings. Are they thinner or thicker?
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE | | I think the important thing here is the size difference in the new strings. Are they thinner or thicker? |
No such info is provided in the casing unfortunately. Also, I tried googling this info but couldn't find any.
Are there any thinner strings than Pyramid or La Bella except the one you mentioned from Istanbul?
|
|
|
DavidJE
Oud Junkie
Posts: 265
Registered: 7-14-2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Member Is Offline
|
|
Johnny,
Your Pyramid strings should have the sizes on the envelopes that each string comes in. And you can pick strings of whatever thickness you want on:
http://oudstrings.com/ (US)
http://music-strings.de/ (Germany/Europe)
Brian from Oudstrings.com or Matthias from Music-Strings.de can help you with that. They're both members here.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm only seeing numbers on the envelopes but I don't know what they mean; the 2nd course has the number 650 202 for example.
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Johnny,
Here are the standard string gauges from the Pyramid 650 set:
http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=...
I also have a table of gauges from various sets here:
http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=cms/article&path=3&am...
Though I just realized that I need to update the table because the Aquila sets have changed recently and I has Mari make two different sets for me
(Turkish and Arabic) so the information there is out-of-date. The Pyramid, LaBella, D'addario and Savarez info is correct.
The 650/11 set is made for CFAdgc' tuning (low to high), not high f'f' tuning. You can use the 650 set (not 650/11) for FAdgc' tuning and get the
separate high f'f' course:
650: http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=...
high f'f': http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=...
The LaBella 'Arabic' set OU80-A is made for FAdgc'f' tuning.
Another option is the Aquila sets; like Pyramid you have to purchase the high f'f' separately. Feel free to contact me through the OudStrings.com
website for suggestions.
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Just to clarify, the 650 202 string (second string) is meant to be tuned to g . . . if you are tuning it to c', that is way too high and could damage
your oud.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | | Just to clarify, the 650 202 string (second string) is meant to be tuned to g . . . if you are tuning it to c', that is way too high and could damage
your oud. |
I thank you a lot for taking the effort and posting this useful information for me here.
I do have the 650 202 tuned to G but it still buzzes a lot nonetheless but only when striking it.
Question: How do I come to know if I have the Pyramid 650/11 or the 650 (without the /11) set? Also, do you mean with 'f' an f sharp or just a regular
F on a higher octave?
The La Bella strings I have on my oud at the moment is indeed tuned to FAdgcf and yet it still buzzes on pressed notes (Mi and Si) on the 3rd and 4th
course and on the 5th course when struck as an open note.
I guess it really comes down to the thickness of the strings regardless of you having it tuned according to its tuning design or not. I might be wrong
here though.
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
There are many many possible reasons for buzzing . . . in most cases it is something physical with the instrument, it is rare that it is actually the
strings (although sometimes certain strings may minimize the problem).
|
|
|
bulerias1981
Oud Junkie
Posts: 763
Registered: 4-26-2009
Location: Beacon, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: John Vergara Luthier Lord of the Strings instrument making and repair
|
|
Johnny boy,
Maybe the neck is warped or has become warped. If so it would reflect on the fingerboard.
Take a straight edge ruler and place the end of the ruler against the nut. The should be a small dip at the center of the fingerboard (roughly between
the E natural and the F# would be on the D string area)
Check this across where all the strings would be.
If it's high in that area.. meaning the ruler rocks from left to right, that would be a source of buzzing for sure. Then it would need to be planed
down by a competent luthier who knows the oud.
Let us know the results. Thanks and good luck.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | | There are many many possible reasons for buzzing . . . in most cases it is something physical with the instrument, it is rare that it is actually the
strings (although sometimes certain strings may minimize the problem). |
The thing is, I have been searching for a physical cause on my oud for a few months now, repairing all possible causes while none of them fixed the
buzzing. That's why I thought it would be good to rule out a string cause as well. Is there a way to know if I have the right set of Pyramid strings
for my FADgc'f tuning? (650/11 or 650)
Also, looking at your website, don't you mean I'd need the #665-000 instead of 650? http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=...
I can see that the 650 is designed for GADcg' while the #665-000 is FADgc. The only thing I'm concerned about is that the 2nd course in the #665-000
is thicker than the one of the 650.
bulerias1981: I take it you have to put the ruler not "on" the nut but right next to it on the fingerboard since there's already a
1mm height difference between the nut height and the fingerboard? Also, should the length of the ruler roughly match the distance between the nut and
the small dip you're talking about? A ruler that's too long would otherwise lean against the end of the fingerboard (on the oud's face) preventing it
to rock left or right even when there is a high action in the center of the fingerboard.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Could anyone please help me with the questions in my previous post?
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
| Quote: | | Is there a way to know if I have the right set of Pyramid strings for my FADgc'f tuning? (650/11 or 650) |
The strings in the 650 set are for FAdgc' tuning, the 650/11 set just adds the low C. The "F" is actually a compromise, tension-wise, so that it can
be tuned to either F or G. You can use that set, you just need to keep the pitches the same and add the first high f' course. The string marked
"first" (c') would now be the second course, the "second" (g) would now be third, etc.
You can't just tune the set up to f' using the same strings.
| Quote: |
Also, looking at your website, don't you mean I'd need the #665-000 instead of 650? http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=...
I can see that the 650 is designed for GADcg' while the #665-000 is FADgc. The only thing I'm concerned about is that the 2nd course in the #665-000
is thicker than the one of the 650. |
Either one can be used for F or G on that course, but the 650 is a little better tuned to F and the 665 is a little better tuned to G.
The 665 has very heavy nylon courses, particularly on the g course.
Technically you want the 650-000, or the 665-000 but these are normally just called the 650 set or 665 set, respectively (the 650/11 and 665/11 have
the low C).
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thank you for your answer. Got one last question. The set I have at the moment only contains 3 silver wound courses which makes me assume it doesn't
contain the low C since that set should contain 4 silver wound courses, correct?
Looking at the set I have I see the envelopes all begin with the number 650. I have the following numbers:
650 205 (5th course, silver wound)
650 204 (4th course, silver wound)
650 003 (3rd course, silver wound)
650 202 (2nd coures, plain nylon)
650 201 (1st course, plain nylon)
Can I now safely assume I already have the 650-000 set?
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Yes.
201 - c'
202 - g
003 - d
204 - A
205 - F (or G)
This will add the high f'f' pair:
http://www.oudstrings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=...
|
|
|
bulerias1981
Oud Junkie
Posts: 763
Registered: 4-26-2009
Location: Beacon, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: John Vergara Luthier Lord of the Strings instrument making and repair
|
|
johnnyboy,
Sorry for the late reply. To answer your question a smaller rule is good, like 6" long. But 12" rule is fine too. And yea, you do not want it on the
nut. Place the center of the rule (3" mark) where the F" is on the D string. It should not be contacting the fingerboard in that area, there should be
a healthy scoop there. This is a very common source of fingerboard buzz or "slapping".
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Brian: I already have the high f'f' pair from another pyramid set that I bought a long time ago. Seeing I'm using the correct set
here, I guess the only fix -in case the buzzing has a string cause- is to have thinner strings. However, wouldn't strings that are too thick cause
buzzing at open notes as well? Because that's only the case here on my G course.
| Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981 | johnnyboy,
Sorry for the late reply. To answer your question a smaller rule is good, like 6" long. But 12" rule is fine too. And yea, you do not want it on the
nut. Place the center of the rule (3" mark) where the F" is on the D string. It should not be contacting the fingerboard in that area, there should be
a healthy scoop there. This is a very common source of fingerboard buzz or "slapping". |
I just did what you said but I could only find a 14 inch ruler. What I did was the following:
1. Placing the ruler in the length of each string, against the nut.
2. Then I tried pushing a piece of paper between the ruler and the fingerboard along the whole length of the ruler to see if there was room inbetween.
The piece of paper got through easily in the area of F# all the way to E on the D string. That same area location and width also applied when placing
the ruler next to the g, c and f' courses.
I'm not sure if the ruler is too long for this but it did rock a tiny bit on the d, g, c and f' courses. The rocking was most notable at the g
course.
How could a scoop be called healthy if it could cause buzzing?
|
|
|
bulerias1981
Oud Junkie
Posts: 763
Registered: 4-26-2009
Location: Beacon, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: John Vergara Luthier Lord of the Strings instrument making and repair
|
|
A healthy scoop relieves buzzing. All stringed instruments need this relief.. I do it on violins and guitars. If you place the ruler across the
fingerboard, light should shine through around the middle of the fingerboard.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981 | | A healthy scoop relieves buzzing. All stringed instruments need this relief.. I do it on violins and guitars. If you place the ruler across the
fingerboard, light should shine through around the middle of the fingerboard. |
Aah, now I understand. I got confused when you said "if it's high in that area, then that would be a source for buzzing", thinking "high" as in high
action (deeper dip) .
The ruler does rock a bit though despite the dip being exactly where you pointed out to be. Maybe there's a relatively higher level of the fingerboard
at a location other than the scoop?
Just out of curiosity, how would a scoop in that area relieve buzzing?
|
|
|
bulerias1981
Oud Junkie
Posts: 763
Registered: 4-26-2009
Location: Beacon, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: John Vergara Luthier Lord of the Strings instrument making and repair
|
|
The scoop is needed to stop buzzing and rattling especially playing the first, second and third finger notes. The fingerboard cannot be flat. If it
was flat and you simply pressed down on lets say the E natural on the D string, there should be clearance ahead of it so it can vibrate. If it was
flat when you hold the E down it will also be touching the area where the F is, so of course it will make a buzz in that location. Any note you press,
there should be clearance ahead of it. Also, if the action is too low you can get strings slapping in various areas on the fingerboard.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981 | | The scoop is needed to stop buzzing and rattling especially playing the first, second and third finger notes. The fingerboard cannot be flat. If it
was flat and you simply pressed down on lets say the E natural on the D string, there should be clearance ahead of it so it can vibrate. If it was
flat when you hold the E down it will also be touching the area where the F is, so of course it will make a buzz in that location. Any note you press,
there should be clearance ahead of it. Also, if the action is too low you can get strings slapping in various areas on the fingerboard.
|
Thanks for the explanation. Guess I still have yet to find the cause of my buzzing issue.. 
|
|
|
bulerias1981
Oud Junkie
Posts: 763
Registered: 4-26-2009
Location: Beacon, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: John Vergara Luthier Lord of the Strings instrument making and repair
|
|
Ever hear the term "psycho-acoustics"?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
