journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
advice requested
My teacher would like me to start working through some oud method books that have become standard training in Syria. The tuning required is from F to
f, like the Iraqi tuning I guess. I am reluctant to tune my Arabic ouds that high, especially my old der Bedrossian due to concerns over the amount of
tension that would be created. I'm thinking that the easiest solution would be to buy a cheap Turkish oud for this purpose. Any other suggestions
would be welcomed. -Roy
roypatterson.com
|
|
|
Almelaifi
Oud Addict
Posts: 30
Registered: 7-28-2014
Location: Madison, WI
Member Is Offline
|
|
How about lowering your tune, so it becomes from E-flat to E-flat or E to E?
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
I don't understand. If you have a six course oud tuned C to c and not lower, such as A to a , the tension of F to f would be the same. You move the
strings over, forget about the C, save it for later, and the f strings are lighter gauge than your cc strings. You weren't going to tune the same
strings up a fourth, were you? The high f goes where high c was. c goes where g was. and so on. I must need more information because I don't see the
problem.
Also you don't need to actually re-tune. Just pretend that cc is ff and play through the method book. Most of what you will play will be on the
highest four courses. It's all in fourths. If you're playing solo what difference does the absolute pitch make?
|
|
|
journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks Jody; the removal of the low C string, shifting the remaining five courses down and then adding a single high f string seems like the perfect
solution and so obvious that I feel a bit silly now having posted the question. What do people use for the high f; a guitar string?
roypatterson.com
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by journeyman  | Thanks Jody; the removal of the low C string, shifting the remaining five courses down and then adding a single high f string seems like the perfect
solution and so obvious that I feel a bit silly now having posted the question. What do people use for the high f; a guitar string?
|
For ff they use strings of much lighter gauge than a guitar has. they are packaged as high f string for oud but they can be bought as "string" with no
particular instrument mentioned. The range for nylon depending on scale length and other factors, is about .018 inches to .022. That's a lot lighter
than guitar. Remember, this is a double course. You don't want to pull off your bridge or have the oud implode or explode.
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
I just noticed your reference to a *single* f rather than a double. Is this because your oud is set up for eleven strings? No twelfth peg or nut slot
or 12th hole on the bridge? If so, I think a single low F and a double high ff is a better solution. The single high course is likely to sound weak.
So will the single F of course but since your oud is likely to be set up to accommodate a single bass string, this is easiest. I think the best thing
is to use C tuning !
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hi Roy,
Bryan at oudstrings.com sells single high F strings for the oud. If your other strings are relatively new, you can do that instead of buying a whole
new set. Otherwise I believe some sets like the labella for Arabic come with the high ff strings standard.
I always heard and read that going to high f tuning on a regular arabic scale (60cm +) oud would be dangerous but I am thinking perhaps this is just
anecdotal information that is regularly repeated but without having done the tension calculations.
I would still personally do exactly as Jody says, Single F for the bass and double high ff and it should be ok.
when is the Zaher coming? maybe it would be better to use a more modern oud. I don't tune any of my antiques to full concert pitch any ways.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
|
|
|
journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Personally, I prefer the standard C tuning. The books that I will be working from use the F - f tuning and are in three volumes. From what I
understand, this method is becoming standardized and appears to have been adopted from Munir Bashir. The method is perhaps the equivalent to the Royal
Conservatory of Music that we have in Canada. I also have mixed feelings about academia attempting to standardize approaches to teaching, but there
are some technical skills I need that these books address in a very organized manner, and my teacher has worked through them completely. So, I have
decided to take advantage of this opportunity. I realize also that learning to play music involves much more than technique, but it sure helps to have
command of good body mechanics as they pertain to playing an instrument.
My oud is set up for 12 strings but I'll try a single bass and a double ff and see how that works. I'll put them on my Garabet der Bedrossian and tune
it down a tone from F; that should be safe and might still sound OK.
The oud from Zaher should be ready soon Samir but I expect it will take a few weeks to get here after it is finished. I'll post pics when it arrives.
roypatterson.com
|
|
|
suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1061
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
hello
what is this method, adopted from Munir Bashir, you are talking about ?
Thank you
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
The issue with high f' tuning on fixed bridge oud is that many high f' players use floating bridges and higher tensions (because of the floating
bridge). So some sets are fairly high tension. I feel that the LaBella set is slightly high tension on the f'f' and c'c' but the rest of the set is
balanced so it is generally safe except on old instruments, where I would use a lighter set.
I also have high f'f' courses available individually from Pyramid to match the standard 650 set.
As Jody notes, if you are just moving all the strings over one spot, then you are only increasing the tension by the difference between two high f'f'
strings vs. one low C string (this is usually an increase of about 3.6-4Kg, so equivalent to adding about 0.33-0.36Kg to each string. This isn't
insignificant, but it's not huge either.
George Michel used a high f', as does Anouar Brahem, both on fixed-bridge instruments. The main thing is that you have to be more careful with
tension, but it is definitely doable.
|
|
|
journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I don't read Arabic so can't tell you the manes of the books. All I know is that my teacher, who is from Damascus said that they are used in the
Damascus Conservatory. I didn't mean to suggest that the method was adapted from Munir Bashir, only the high ff tuning.
Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'll place another order soon Brian. BTW, I'm surprised to learn that Anouar Brahem uses the high ff tuning; I
never would have guessed as he has such a deep warm sound.
roypatterson.com
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by journeyman |
I don't read Arabic so can't tell you the manes of the books. All I know is that my teacher, who is from Damascus said that they are used in the
Damascus Conservatory. I didn't mean to suggest that the method was adapted from Munir Bashir, only the high ff tuning.
Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'll place another order soon Brian. BTW, I'm surprised to learn that Anouar Brahem uses the high ff tuning; I
never would have guessed as he has such a deep warm sound. |
I think other factors besides pitch are involved in the perception of warm sound. Listen to Nasser Houari on youtube for a very deep sound in F
tuning. Like Anouar Brahem he is using a fixed bridge oud. And then there are 7 course ouds that use the high ff and don't lose the C "bam". And so
many ouds before mid 20th century were 5 course instruments. In Arabic tuning the lowest course was either GG or FF, no lower than the lowest course
in F tuning.
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
To put it another way, the addition of a higher course does not make a fixed bridge oud less responsive to the lower strings, it simply extends the
range upward. But a floating bridge oud that is built to reinforce upper frequencies will do what it was designed to do.
|
|
|
suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1061
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ok
thanks for your message journey man and good luck in your learnings
|
|
|
journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I've heard that Anouar Brahem uses Savarez lute strings. Do you know which set he uses Brian? Regardless, I'll order a couple of high ff singles from
Oudstrings. What would you suggest for a complete set of FF-ff strings?
roypatterson.com
|
|
|
journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Well, I shifted the strings over on my der Bedrossian oud. There was only one hole in the bridge for the low F. I used some 19 lb. test nylon fishing
line for the high ff and it sounds surprisingly good. We'll see how it is after stretching out. The tuning will take some getting used to for sure,
but I'll give it a try.
roypatterson.com
|
|
|
juju
Oud Junkie
Posts: 125
Registered: 11-13-2011
Location: Paris - France
Member Is Offline
|
|
Anouar Brahem uses Pyramid strings ... it might be a light set ...
|
|
|
journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks Juju.
If anyone is interested, the nylon fishing line for the high ff has settled down and sounds excellent. It is 19 lb. test, made by Maxim.
roypatterson.com
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
